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Author Topic: Clean game  (Read 7940 times)

avabob

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Clean game
« on: May 24, 2016, 09:45:53 AM »
I bowl in a league that gives open play credits for split conversions, clean games, and certain scores like 33 in the 3rd 66 in the 6th, and 99 in the 9th.  Last night I was clean going in to the 10th.  I struck my first ball, left a 4-6 on my second ball, which I did not convert.  Did I have a clean game?

 

spmcgivern

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Re: Clean game
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2016, 09:54:36 AM »
I understand bowlers can have differing views of those things that leave something for interpretation.  For instance, who is the best bowler ever?  What should we consider to be a scratch bowler?  What should handicap be based on?  These are things that leave interpretation and can differ depending on the environment or person.

However, USBC rules are intended to be black and white (or as much as possible).  The rules are sometimes written in a way to prevent interpretation for ease of enforcement.  So trying to change the definition of what a clean game is goes against the USBC intention.  Sure, one can personally think they didn't have a clean game in their mind by not sparing after a strike in the 11th/12th frame, but to everyone else that must be considered a clean game.  Perhaps others will side with you and agree it isn't a clean game, but saying it isn't is similar to saying a strike has to have all the pins off the deck. 

So you can think it isn't clean, but you cannot tell others it isn't clean since the rule states it is.  And to say it is a more "pure" game with your definition is false.  You can't change rules and claim to do it for the sake of "pureness" or sport integrity.  In fact, following the rule as written is behaving in a more "pure" way and establishes integrity for the sport.

michelle

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Re: Clean game
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2016, 09:56:30 AM »
Have to agree to an extent with Steven here...I disagree with his personal view on the referenced 298 even though the 8-count was a split although I agree that avabob's game is not one I would personally view as clean.  I'll explain reasoning for both...

avabob struck on the first shot in the 10th, thus yielding the additional two shots.  As we generally consider 'clean' frames to be clearing the deck in one or two shots, I personally would not consider strike-split to be a clean 10th frame.  If you strike, then you either need to go strike-count or else spare in those next two shots...but again, this is MY view and how I personally would view the accomplishment.

As to the 298 game ending in a split, I would still view that as a clean, albeit disappointing game precisely because there were two marks in the 10th and the split-8 is effectively no different than if someone had gone XX8 or any other XX6 (or better).  I'm old school and view a five count on a mark to be a loss of the mark, hence my use of 6 or better.  The loss of the 300 would be frustrating in ANY circumstance, no matter HOW many one may have thrown, but to say the frame was open simply because the third shot (of a maximum three in the 10th) was not a strike just rings hollow for me...it is, after all, the second shot of the two you are awarded for a strike on the first shot in the 10th.

And with that, I return to my little retired-from-the-game corner...

avabob

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Re: Clean game
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2016, 10:16:46 AM »
Michelle:  Thanks for a well thought out analysis.  When I posed this question it was really to see what people thought.  Immediately after finishing the game I asked the desk man whether I qualified for a clean game and was told it did.  I actually wasn't sure, and would not have been upset either way. 

I have always personally thought of my situation as a clean game.  My rationale is that whether you strike or spare in the 10th, the last two shots are basically for count.  Most people clearly believe a spare in the 10th does not require a strike on the count ball for a clean game.  I don't really care about the definition either unless it impacts an award, in which case I want to know the criteria when I am going for it.

 if I spare on my first ball and throw a bad count on the second ball I am much more disappointed than if I strike and go 9 out on my last two shots regardless of how it is defined.  Likewise two or 3 bad count spares bothers me worse than one open.

By the way I have thrown 298 with a swishing 7-10, 299 with stone 8 pin, and I think I have a 297 or two in there somewhere.  They were all clean games in my mind although I obviously was pretty disappointed with the bad shot resulting in the 297 games.   
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 10:23:08 AM by avabob »

Steven

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Re: Clean game
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2016, 12:37:27 PM »
IUSBC rules are intended to be black and white (or as much as possible).  The rules are sometimes written in a way to prevent interpretation for ease of enforcement.  So trying to change the definition of what a clean game is goes against the USBC intention.  Sure, one can personally think they didn't have a clean game in their mind by not sparing after a strike in the 11th/12th frame, but to everyone else that must be considered a clean game.  Perhaps others will side with you and agree it isn't a clean game, but saying it isn't is similar to saying a strike has to have all the pins off the deck.

 
I don't disagree with much of your analysis. As I've stated repeatedly, I understand the USBC definition of a clean game, but I personally don't agree with it. I'm not trying to interpret the USBC definition any other way than it's stated and have no expectations that it will ever be changed. Anybody can keep their 'clean game' with a blemish without fear I'll come after them  :) .
 
The only issue I have with your analysis is comparing the standard for a completely clean game to a strike that has to achieve certain style points. One is absolute and easily measurable while the other is subjective. It's comparing apples and oranges.

spmcgivern

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Re: Clean game
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2016, 01:17:52 PM »
IUSBC rules are intended to be black and white (or as much as possible).  The rules are sometimes written in a way to prevent interpretation for ease of enforcement.  So trying to change the definition of what a clean game is goes against the USBC intention.  Sure, one can personally think they didn't have a clean game in their mind by not sparing after a strike in the 11th/12th frame, but to everyone else that must be considered a clean game.  Perhaps others will side with you and agree it isn't a clean game, but saying it isn't is similar to saying a strike has to have all the pins off the deck.

 
I don't disagree with much of your analysis. As I've stated repeatedly, I understand the USBC definition of a clean game, but I personally don't agree with it. I'm not trying to interpret the USBC definition any other way than it's stated and have no expectations that it will ever be changed. Anybody can keep their 'clean game' with a blemish without fear I'll come after them  :) .
 
The only issue I have with your analysis is comparing the standard for a completely clean game to a strike that has to achieve certain style points. One is absolute and easily measurable while the other is subjective. It's comparing apples and oranges.

Just to be clear, the OP's game does not have a blemish.  It has what you call a blemish thus making your view of a clean game subjective since it does not meet the definition; the same as the possibility of a person's view a strike must have all the pins leave the deck being subjective since it does not meet the definition of a strike. 

With all that said, I do support your league's efforts with the rule.  In today's game, having a clean game pot seems like a waste, especially with the scoring I personally see in my league.  In my league, the pot would be won every game by several people, even with the additional restrictions your league added.  I am usually in favor of things that allow the casual bowler to become more competitive. 

milorafferty

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Re: Clean game
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2016, 02:42:59 PM »
Why is the last ball referred to as a fill ball, not the last two balls in the tenth?
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spmcgivern

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Re: Clean game
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2016, 03:21:12 PM »
My guess is because once you have completed the 10 frames of bowling, the rest of the tenth frame is fill or bonus?  Not sure if bonus i the correct terminology. 

Personally, I call a fill ball the ball after a spare or after a double in the tenth.  For some reason,  I don't call the two balls after a strike fill balls.