win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: low backswing = higher rev rate  (Read 20179 times)

Applejacks

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 32
low backswing = higher rev rate
« on: April 21, 2015, 10:40:12 PM »
Am i crazy or do lower backswings bowlers have a higher rev rate compared to those with higher backswings? All my teammates have lower to mid backswings but they seem to have a much higher rev rate than me who has a higher backswing

 

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24523
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2015, 06:56:23 PM »
Height is difficult to display on a forum page...easier in person but...
One factor is the natural flexibility of the shoulder and if the swing is pulled up...two is - try this -
Hold your arm out parallel to your shoulder at 90 degrees...then swing it behind you...now bend your upper body forward into a proper back swing position...the bowling ball if in your hand would be above your head...too many 'coaches' think that's too high yet it's unimpeded motion to that height thus it's illusuonary

I see the picture. Fine; thank you.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2149
  • Alley Katz Strike!
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2015, 07:22:55 PM »
if it's any help here:

all three have the same amount of backswing, yet by tilting forward the height increases
Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

xrayjay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2015, 11:56:26 AM »
Just in martial arts, what JustRico mentioned about the swing height in relation with the upper body is common sense. There are some movements in kicking for example, and the flexibility of the individuals hips and leg in relation to the upper body.

Some can do a side kick shoulder height without much body lean and some lean a little more just to achieve the same height. But in reality one of the two has a naturally higher side kick - or flexibility vs. the other, even though they look the same.....

Going back to the shoulder......it is complex and they ranging from massive prime mover muscles to finer stabilizer and fixator muscles. And by stretching correctly and routinely, the ROM of these muscles will increase and strengthen. Thus, increase swing height, or length.....


Does a round object have sides? I say yes, pizza has triangles..

aka addik since 2003

CubsFan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2015, 05:45:37 PM »
This year I worked on lowering my backswing. I did this because I felt it led to better timing. A side effect was an increase in revs. I feel the lower swing and resulting slower arm speed gave me more time at the bottom of the swing to get the ball off my hand properly.

So for me, a lower backswing did equal more revs. 

bergman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2015, 08:00:44 PM »
If the armswing is free-flowing (gravity propelled), a shorter swing arc will take
the same amount of time as will a longer swing arc ( for the same bowler). In general,
the amount of time it takes for a pendulum to swing is only dependent on the
length of the pendulum itself (in this case, the bowling arm). So, a longer bowling arm will take longer to complete the same swing angle (cycle) than one taken by a bowler with a shorter arm .  For this reason, bowlers with long arms will have to
walk a bit slower to keep in time with their (slower swing) speed. Again, it is the length of the bowling arm, and not the height of the swing that dictates the "speed" of the swing itself and NOT on how much arc is involved (there is a limit to this principle, but it is for the most part negligible for this discussion). 

In addition, if the same bowler shortens his backswing, the amount of time it
will take to complete the swing cycle will be the same as if he were using a
higher swing--if the swing is gravity-driven.

You can try a little experiment to verify this basic physics principle by taking a length of string and tying a small weight to the end of it. Holding the string in your fingers, pull the string back until it is at a height equal to your fingers holding the string. Time how long it takes for the pendulum to make a complete swing. Next, pull the string only half this height and time it. The time will be the same.

Now, try this same experiment, but this time SHORTEN the length of the string. You will notice that this time, the shorter string length will cause the
pendulum to swing FASTER than the longer string. Same holds true for your bowling arm. The time it takes for your arm to complete a swing is only dependent on your arm's length--nothing else. It will be that way for the rest of your life.
 
Also, swing height (swing arc), does not change simply due to forward spinal tilt, unless
one (or both) things occur----either the bowler is adding force to the swing and/or
the bowler is dropping his/her upper body (tilts) forward excessively DURING their dropaway or backswing. Any forward spinal tilt during this phase will add additional momentum to the swing--causing a higher backswing. If none of these are happening, then the swing will not vary in its height (length of arc).

If the bowler crouches forward and remains fixed in that position from stance to finish, it will give the illusion that their
swing is "higher" than a bowler who stands more erect when in fact, it is not.

A closer look at the illustration will also show that the 3 figures do not have the same amount
of backswing arc as measured from a vertical line from their shoulders to the floor. Clearly, figure 3 has much more swing arc than the first 2 do. The only way this can happen is if #3 pulled the swing back and/or deployed forward tilt during the dropaway/backswing phase or bowler # 3 has a considerably shorter arm than bowlers # 1 &2 (again, shorter arm= faster swing).

If, on the other hand, all 3 of these figures initiated
their downswing from the same height (as measured from their bowling hand to the floor/approach) and simply allowed the arm to swing by gravitational force from start to finish--with no shoulder movement DURING the backswing phase, then all 3 will have reached the same height (swing arc distance). It really is very illusory.

So, lowering (or lengthening) the backswing alone will not alter timing at all provided
the swing is gravity-fed and the bowler is not applying any external forces (via muscling, tilting while in the backswing phase, etc.). The swing will complete its cycle in the same amount of time. Bowlers who shorten the length of their swings will often get a small increase in revs due to a decrease in the ball's forward momentum. Often, the bowler will feel this decrease as they enter their slide step.
They make up for it by applying more hand acceleration at release in an effort to replicate the "feel" they lost when they had the higher backswing.

A great discussion, folks!



 

Azaelv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2015, 08:25:49 PM »
This year I worked on lowering my backswing. I did this because I felt it led to better timing. A side effect was an increase in revs. I feel the lower swing and resulting slower arm speed gave me more time at the bottom of the swing to get the ball off my hand properly.

So for me, a lower backswing did equal more revs.

Same happened to me, had to work on that so my approach at the foul line had more balance and time to create rotation
Motiv Paranoia 40*4*55
Motiv Jackal Carnage 40*4*55
Hammer BWRLS 50*4*55
RG Haywire 40*3.5*50
Storm Rocket 4.5*4*2
Motiv Burn 50*5*40
Motiv Tag 50*5*40
RG Devour 55*5.5*60
Motiv Venom Shock 45*3 3/4*35

PAP 4 3/4" left 1/2 up
Revs: 400.     Ball Speed: 16 mph

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2778
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2015, 01:12:10 PM »
One thing to keep in mind is that there is no such thing as a pure stroke.  I am about as much of a pure stroker as you will ever see, and I use my arms and forward momentum to create ball speed.  Longer arms in this scenario help increase ball speed because you are not talking about a pure pendulum effect. 

lefty50

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1822
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2015, 04:16:19 PM »
Agreed. Good discussion, but I can't see this being a pure pendulum scenario. There are too many external factors to make it a viable representation. I'm thinking specifically of foot speed and it's relation to arm swing, something that will by necessity throw out the pure pendulum concept in this case...

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2778
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2015, 06:49:35 PM »
2 things signaled the demise of the pendulum arm swing.  The first was the reward gain from the higher rev rate obtainable from the cup wristed crankers release of the 80's.  Second was the need for more ball speed due to the increased friction from the introduction of resin enhanced urethane balls. 

Even us old strokers are more power strokers than pure strokers in todays game.

bergman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2015, 11:14:32 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly that there are a lot of variables that are in play when it comes to the bowling swing and how that swing affects ball velocity, rev rates & timing. It is also a fact that many, if not most bowlers do not use a full gravity-fed (free) swing. The more a swing deviates from this, the less will those fundamental
"pendulum" principles apply- and vice versa. My swing relies almost entirely on
gravity--from start to finish. It is an element of my game that took years to perfect.
Years ago, I attempted to develop more of a power game but discovered that it
created a lot of problems for me, so I abandoned it and returned to what works best for me. My good friend, who is also my age (65), uses quite a bit of acceleration in his swing, and that works best for him. We both compete at the same skill level
by using different approaches.

So, for those bowlers who fit more into my category, adhering to the principles
that I outlined above will, without a doubt, make a huge (positive) difference
in your accuracy, timing, and pin carry. I guarantee it.

While on the subject of pendulums, I would like to make sure that
some of its fundamental principles are understood. One of these principles involves
the relationship of ball speed to a bowler's (arm) length. Ball SPEED is completely independent of one's arm length. Put another way, a longer arm will generate
the exact same speed as a shorter arm . Ball speed in only dependent on one thing and one thing alone. It is only dependent on backswing height from the approach. If the ball descends from a height of say, 4 feet, it doesn't matter the length of the (pendulum) or arm from which it is suspended.

For the sake of clarification, I also want to clarify a  point I made in my previous post as it relates to swing speed vs. pendulum (arm ) length.  I stated that shorter ones move faster through the swing cycle. They do not. Shorter ones move at the same SPEED as longer ones if both are swinging through the
same DEGREE of arc . But because a shorter pendulum (arm) carves out less arc DISTANCE, it takes less TIME for the shorter pendulum to complete its swing than a longer one will. Again, pendulum speed depends only on the ball's height from the floor at the top of the backswing and nothing else. The TIME it takes for a longer arm to complete the same degree of swing will be LONGER because it is carving out a larger (but same DEGREE) of arc as the shorter arm.

So what this also means is that a bowler who DOES use a gravity fed swing (or very close) to it, will not experience a difference in TIMING by resorting to a shorter swing because the bowler's arm LENGTH does not change. Ball speed at release is different
than swing TIMING. (I am using "caps" just to point out the differences in terms).

So, for those who do deploy a gravity fed swing (or close to it), a longer arm will require slower feet to stay in "time" and vice versa.  However, a longer arm will not affect ball speed (nor will a shorter arm). This depends only on how far the ball has to fall from the top of the swing(its height from the floor). Of course, there are many other factors not related to the pendulum itself that will certainly affect ball speed as well. Foot speed and
arm/body acceleration--applied at certain points, also affect ball speed, but I simply
focused on the effects on the bowling arm itself and its effects on timing, ball speed, and revs.

When it comes to revs, this too, gets complicated. Without giving revs the same breakdown as the pendulum, it's pretty apparent that the amount of revs is largely dependent on hand position and the amount of leverage (force) that is applied at the release, that are the 2 big factors in play here. But once again, it is much more than that. However, as it relates to armswing height, I agree that swing height is independent on the amount of revs a bowler can produce. Hand position and acceleration, applied at the precise point at release and in the right direction, is the biggest factor. But it's not the only factor, especially those who deploy the contemporary (wrist collapse) technique. For them,
it requires not only acceleration, but FINGER extension through the release that is
by necessity, different in terms of hand position and spine angles than the extension/spine angles used by bowlers who are more "old school" stroker
type players.


itsallaboutme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2002
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2015, 02:50:57 PM »
better check your math if you think arm length doesn't effect speed.

http://www.endmemo.com/physics/spendulum.php

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2778
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2015, 07:15:48 PM »
I was going to say the same thing.  Length of arms is a big factor in ball speed.  The longer the pendulum, the faster the end is moving at the same swing speed. 

tgknukem

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2015, 06:42:50 PM »
To me, logically, rev rate should be dependent on the force applied to the bowling ball along with the amount of time the force is applied.  A bowler applying a force for .1 seconds(estimation) will have a lower rev rate than someone applying the same force for .2 seconds.  Bowlers with bent elbows or cupped wrists at release increase the amount of time force is applied by moving their fingers farther below the ball's equator.  Bowlers that start the release behind the ball and turn their wrist to a certain amount of axis rotation will apply force for a longer period of time than those bowlers who start their release on the side of the ball and reach the same amount of axis rotation.  One handed bowlers can only apply rotational force once their thumbs have cleared.  Two handed bowlers can apply force from much farther below the equator because there is no thumb to clear.  If ball height in the backswing was the only factor in determing force applied the Belmo couldn't hurl a ball at 20MPH and 700RPM.  His force applied comes from approach velocity, along with a definitve plant coupled with arm lag that causes a whiplike action which transfers his approach energy(velocity) to the bowling ball.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 06:45:05 PM by tgknukem »

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2149
  • Alley Katz Strike!
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2015, 08:11:15 PM »
Just some interesting info

Sport Science - PBA's Sean Rash - ESPN Video - ESPN

This measures how Sean generates his speed and rev's.

His shoulder rotates 68° past it's neutral position, with the average bowler only going 60° past and At release He only rotates his wrist 20° for 500+ revs

Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

bergman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
Re: low backswing = higher rev rate
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2015, 02:14:41 PM »
Hi Itsallaboutme:

Thanks for the link.  However, if you notice, the value of "L" in the velocity equation
represents the HEIGHT of the pendulum bob from the floor (and not the length of the pendulum arm itself). The height is calculated by taking the difference between the height of the pendulum pivot point (from the floor) vs the  maximum height (displacement)
of the pendulum bob (from the floor). To do this, it is necessary to factor in the cosine component of the angle displaced by the pendulum. In this case, the length of the pendulum simply represents the
hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the pendulum.  A pendulum's velocity at the bottom is still, only dependent on the
total vertical distance the pendulum bob falls from its maximum displacement height
if no external forces are applied--and not the length of the pendulum arm itself.

I agree with the fact that it appears that a longer arm will generate more speed at the bottom (release) but it is illusory when we are talking about gravitational force. 

A similar (but somewhat different) illusion as it relates to gravitational force is also very common. This involves a bullet's trajectory as it is fired from a gun. If I stand
next to a marksman who is holding a very high powered rifle and drop a bullet from my hand
from the same height of his gun barrel at the same time he shoots,  both, his (and my bullet) will strike the ground at precisely the same instant--provided he fired the gun with the barrel parallel to the ground. Hard to believe, but it is true. The horizontal distance traveled by his bullet will be far greater than the (horizontal) distance traveled by my bullet (I simply drop the bullet at my feet), but both will still hit the ground at the same time, barring wind resistance.

As with the "physics" of the pendulum, the force of gravity is completely independent of any horizontal movement of the object, whether it's a bullet or a pendulum bob.

A great discussion.