Author Topic: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices (Read 12729 times)

Harmsey · « **on:** January 14, 2010, 06:17:51 AM »

After many hours of thought and watching friends go out of business or finding new jobs due to lack of bowling equipment sales, has left me with one question to the bowling manufacturers. "Why won't you establish a minimum sale price for all current products on the market?The golf industry is much larger and has more companies in their sport than bowling and yet you can go to any local on course pro shop,local retailer, and pick any of the web sellers and the price of current products are within $5.00 of each retailer. Bowling has in place all that needs to be done to police this situation but the manufactures still think that once they sell a product to the distributors the price that needs to be charged is out of there hands, when its the manufactures job to protect their product and keep the industry stable. With the ridiculously low prices some e-tailers are selling products for forces many pro shop operators into being just a ball driller or to leave the business altogether. Bowling will continue to decline if the ship is not righted soon. This is just one of many reasons bowling is suffering and manufactures need to help this industry if they want bowling to start growing again.
--------------------
Steve Harms
Owner Bowler Choice Pro Shop
USBC Silver Coach
Track Regional Staff
Member PBA
www.bowlerschoiceproshop.com

srlunatic · « **Reply #106 on:** January 17, 2010, 04:45:22 PM »

Will put in my 2 cents even if JLS will probably go into attack mode...

Have worked in a couple pro shops, both on military bases and not.

The model changed big time with the internet. Pro Shops need to change their way of thinking in my opinion on how to make money.

The cheap bowling ball off the internet is here to stay. Especially in a time of economic depression as we are in. The Pro Shop has to look outside the box to make the profit needed that is probably lost on High End ball sales. Most internet buys are high end equipment and not mid or low price point. Virtual Gravity, Jigsaw, etc...

What we have done at our shops to combat this...

1) Increased profit amounts on our low end products. You can get cases of plastic balls for silly cheap, price up to 65 to 70 a ball and make a ton of money. You can do this to many items on the low end of the price scale to help out making up the profit lost on the high end equipment.

2) Ball surface prep/cleaning/etc are a MONEY MAKER! With the people who buy the high end equipment from one of the shops I worked at would include a card for 5 free surface changes/cleaning and one resurface. IF they bought the Virtual Gravity through us they received this. If they went on line they didn't.

These are just a couple of quick examples of how to help get more money into the shop while competing with the online shops.

Could write all day on this and would be happy to be more specific on this with anyone who writes.

Mike
--------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Mike Austin · « **Reply #107 on:** January 17, 2010, 04:57:38 PM »

quote:
quote:
DON'T come on here and say how intelligent you are, how you'll put somebody in their place with words, I do this and that in the community, blah, blah, blah. That's just a different type of bullying. Quite frankly, anybody that has to come on here and tell us what a pillar of the community he is sounds like he's trying to convince himself of how great he is. Most of us don't care. You're just another anonymous internet honk with an agenda.

Mike .. do you feel he was describing YOU here?
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Joe, no I don't feel that Letsbowl was describing me. How could he be? I have never posted in this thread until I quoted him and backed his comments. If YOU feel that he was describing me, then you are mistaken but also welcome to your opinion. I don't tell people how intelligent I am, I let my posts speak for themselves. I have never told anyone that I was going to put them in any kind of place with anything and I sure don't think that I bully anyone. I may very well have the opinion that you are a cheapskate that doesn't always know what you are talking about, but I never stated that on THIS forum. Finally, I may very well be a honk, donk, newb, and/or idiot, but I definitely not anonymous, I use my name just like you. I don't have much of an agenda, but having been a ball driller most of my adult life, it does upset me when people harangue pro shop operators for trying to make a living, especially when it is generally acknowledged that the said living for most is at or below the poverty level.

--------------------
Check out my blog:

www.strikes4days.blogspot.com

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #108 on:** January 17, 2010, 05:33:37 PM »

--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #109 on:** January 17, 2010, 05:53:28 PM »

quote:
Letsbowl .. I don't see how what I said offended you .. no matter how I read it I can't see what you are getting out of it .. how ever I WILL apologize to you .. I WILL NOT withdraw my comment ..I think what you said "A word to Trip4" was definitely clear in your statement and is a wide open comment that could describe a LOT OF PEOPLE .. was I at fault for asking my question? AGAIN I APOLOGIZE TO YOU FOR WHATEVER YOU INTERPRET MY COMMENT TO MEAN!
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Mike Austin · « **Reply #110 on:** January 17, 2010, 05:57:45 PM »

quote:
Wow, I can see this is over some of your heads. Let me break this down so you will understand. If a proshop tells you that they cannot buy the ball for what an online dealer is selling it for, then straight up, the proshop is not searching very hard to get a good price. Nobody's fault but the proshops. Online stores have the same access to the same deals as proshop owners. I have been to Bowling expos and see the deals that are put out by manufacturers. Sometimes a brick and mortar proshop gets better deals than online stores. I know that for a fact. Anything contrary to that is a straight up lie. So you cant sit there and tell me that online stores get the items cheaper than you can, but I know its a load of BS. If you call around you could get the same deal. Simple as that. So instead of wasting all your energy pointing a finger at online store, get off you backside and find your customers better prices.

NOW WE SHOULD BE CLEAR!

Scizzo

While I agree with the deleted part of your post, I think, the above part is where you are wrong.

Pro shops cannot buy product for the same price that the internets buy for, period, end of story. I think this is the center of Harmsey's whole argument.

I worked part time for a bowling distributor, to help them during a boom time in their business. I pulled orders for the internets to be shipped out. I also pulled mine and other brick/mortar pro shop orders. The internets paid less, all the time, they had a different pricing tier. I tried to get this internet pricing for my pro shop, but was refused. Thier reasoning was, that if they did it for me, they should do it for everyone. Even though I was in their top 5 brick/mortar customers, I was not able to get this deeper discount.

Also, as a favor to my friends, I physically called about 12 distributors to check prices on a number of items. I polled to find out if they sold to internets or not. I asked if I could get a better price for my site, which I was affiliated with one for awhile (another friend), and they all said yes. For orders that I drop shipped from their facility, I could get a deeper discount than to my shop. A couple distributors did not sell to internets at all.

Most all of the internets never see the product they sell, it is drop shipped for them. The bigger internets use multiple distributors to ship from, located all over the country. This saves them on shipping, which now many times is free to the consumer. As someone else mentioned, the distributors need the internets to move product, they move more product in volume. This is why they can afford to sell the ball for $10 over their cost multiplied by 200 and they never did anything but pound the keyboard. For all you guys know, the head of XXXXXbowling.com is some goof sitting in his underwear in his parents basement pounding the keyboard all day long. He may not even know how to bowl....? This small margin lets the internets sell the ball at the same or less than what the brick/mortars are paying for it. And that's even if the pro shop is on the best tier with the distributor. Even though he's very reputable, Doug Sterner is not going to do the volume in his part time shop that maybe I was doing in my shop. Because I buy more than Doug, I may reach another lower priced tier and get a discount that Doug doesn't get. BUT, I still am paying more than the internets.

The distributors are the problem and they have dug their own grave. They need the internets to move product, and the internets will go elsewhere if they don't get the discount. If the distributors sold ALL items, not just balls to the pro shops at the same price, then field would be more fair. I can agree with tiered pricing. Why should a distributor that I only buy $1K a year from give me the same price that they give to a shop that buys $100K a year?

Harmsey's and the pro shops argument is that the playing field is not level. We cannot buy at the same price (generally speaking 98% of the time) as the internets. If I could buy at the same price they do, mark it up a % and then add drilling etc... that would be fine. As it is now, after I add my % mark up, that price is like $40 or so more than the same ball on the net. Some of you don't seem to understand this. We have to have a higher mark up per ball than the nets do, we don't sell 100 in a day. PLUS on top of the less volume, we have MORE FIXED COSTS than the internets. The nets don't have the mentioned rent, insurance, equipment, maintenance on said equipment, taxes, salary(ies), phone, internet, office supplies, utilities?, etc...

One thing that hasn't/isn't ever mentioned is... what about shoes and bags?? This is where sales have really went down. People will still buy balls from the shop, they want the expertise about which one is best and how to drill it. People DON'T ask about shoes and such. Do they fit? Are they comfortable? They will look to see what others are wearing and then buy from the internet. Pro shops used to be able to make a nice margin on these items and there was no labor involved. Put in on the shelf, ohh you like the Purple/Black one, great here ya go! Now the internets sell those bags for the same tiny mark up as they do bowling balls. They aren't touching these items either. Cha Ching! With these items greatly reduced in volume from pro shop sales, it is much harder for the shop to stay in business when they ONLY drill balls. It is very close to impossible to make a good living JUST drilling balls, which some of you think it is. Since these accessory items have dwindled, the shop still has X costs to stay in business, so they have had to raise the price of drilling, which is all you think they do. The Joe Falco types turn and rant about drilling is too high, blah, blah, blah.... Remember X costs are still there with less margin dollar sales coming in. It's business remember....Wow you should just be able to make a living drilling 10 balls a day at $20 each, you should be rolling in it, where's your Escalade? How do you sleep at night gouging customers like that??? Pttttthhhhh!!!

Left This Site... You can't "mandate" a minimum price that the pro shops can sell for. Michelle correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is collusion, and I think that's illegal. 2, there will always be some garage, semi retired, pro shop wannabe that will charge $18 to drill your ball with grips. The reason that most of those type shops charge that much is because they suck, and that's the only way they can draw business is by price. Luckily, like jls' math is about right, the get everything for dirt people are in the minority, many people still value excellent workmanship, top notch knowledge, vast experience, and passion for the sport of bowling, all of which you can't get hands on from a web site.

I do acknowledge that the current economy is tougher than ever. People should shop around and get the best deal for their dollars. But please don't blame the pro shops for the state of affairs. The industry was their sole dominion before the internet, and many made a good living. Now the cheese has been taken away. The good shops have/are adjusting, but NONE OF THEM ARE GETTING RICH. If you have a good shop, be glad, many don't and don't know it. If a shop can command $220 for the high end Monster Rocket, and he has a busy business, be glad, he/she is doing something right. Most pro shops do this for thier passion for the game, I did. They are not the cause of the fall of the industry. The millions less bowlers is the cause. Join the pro shops that love the game and do what you can do to grow the sport. Get more in leagues, new bowlers, more numbers, this is what bowling needs. Add 10 million more league bowlers and GUARANTEE YOU!! that we won't be having this conversation, because I won't have time to argue, I would be drilling till my arms fall off!!!

On top of all this.... I have recently become single again, I have been contemplating moving back to Houston and getting my shop open again. WTF have I been thinking?

This thread may make me stay at Lowe's!! Yikes!!! Nobody has more passion for the pro shop business and helping bowlers get better at thier passion than me, NOBODY!!! Not you either, Beans!!

--------------------
Check out my blog:

www.strikes4days.blogspot.com

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #111 on:** January 17, 2010, 06:07:08 PM »

Sincerely .. Good luck Mike!
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Mike Austin · « **Reply #112 on:** January 17, 2010, 06:08:00 PM »

quote:
Will put in my 2 cents even if JLS will probably go into attack mode...

Have worked in a couple pro shops, both on military bases and not.

The model changed big time with the internet. Pro Shops need to change their way of thinking in my opinion on how to make money.

The cheap bowling ball off the internet is here to stay. Especially in a time of economic depression as we are in. The Pro Shop has to look outside the box to make the profit needed that is probably lost on High End ball sales. Most internet buys are high end equipment and not mid or low price point. Virtual Gravity, Jigsaw, etc...

What we have done at our shops to combat this...

1) Increased profit amounts on our low end products. You can get cases of plastic balls for silly cheap, price up to 65 to 70 a ball and make a ton of money. You can do this to many items on the low end of the price scale to help out making up the profit lost on the high end equipment.

2) Ball surface prep/cleaning/etc are a MONEY MAKER! With the people who buy the high end equipment from one of the shops I worked at would include a card for 5 free surface changes/cleaning and one resurface. IF they bought the Virtual Gravity through us they received this. If they went on line they didn't.

These are just a couple of quick examples of how to help get more money into the shop while competing with the online shops.

Could write all day on this and would be happy to be more specific on this with anyone who writes.

Mike
--------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

++++ Highly Agree!!
--------------------
Check out my blog:

www.strikes4days.blogspot.com

Mike Austin · « **Reply #113 on:** January 17, 2010, 06:13:55 PM »

quote:
Sincerely .. Good luck Mike!
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Joe, you do irritate me sometimes, I have no ill will for you at all!! On the contrary, I wish you were my customer, so that I could educate you on all the questions that you have so that you would not have to come here to get answers from goobs who may be sitting in their parents basement typing in the jammies. I could show you what great customer service is all about. At Lowe's we preach "Customer Focus", and it's true, take care of the customer.

I'm not mad at anyone, I'm too old and tired, and missing my shop/bowling to bother with that stuff.

--------------------
Check out my blog:

www.strikes4days.blogspot.com

Author Topic: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices (Read 12729 times)

Harmsey

Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices

srlunatic

Re: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices

Mike Austin

Re: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices

JOE FALCO

Re: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices

JOE FALCO

Re: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices

Mike Austin

Re: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices

JOE FALCO

Re: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices

Mike Austin

Re: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices

Mike Austin

Re: Manufacturers lack of minimum sales prices