BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: star on October 07, 2019, 06:48:24 AM
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Another awesome seminar is up from Mo Pinel if you haven’t seen it yet.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sbU5Rcmab8E
Some awesome info and more Mo’isms for the bowling community to comment upon.
I do enjoy his thoughts on the game.
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Thanks for posting.
Interesting to see him advocating against pin down layouts on symmetric balls because there is no weight hole to help rev it up.
And once again, cg no mattah....
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Interesting to see him advocating against pin down layouts on symmetric balls because there is no weight hole to help rev it up.
For me, the rule also means I need to not go long on my pin-pap with symmetrical cores. My dv8 freak Show Solid originally loped too much with the pin-pap being around 5 ", once I put a p3 hole in it completely changed the reaction.
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I love his comments on pin down layouts and seeing different men and women Brunswick staffers win using said pin down layouts. At least he's honest when he says he's biased against them
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The Bill Taylor comments were uncalled for.
But as far as the layouts, I'll agree with stronger pins now for symmetricals. I'm going to go from 5 to 4 to smooth out the motion.
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Pin down on symmetrics has its place even on THS and even if speed dominant. My pin down IQ Tour is by far the best no tap ball in my arsenal lol. Do tend to do better with pin up but have had some big games with my pin down Fix which is technically symmetric when drilled that way.
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can someone explain something to me. Mo said that urethane balls do not absorb oil like reactives do. Then he said urethane stops hooking because the cover becomes saturated with oil within a game or a game and a half and need to be sanded before they are used again. Those two statements seem to contradict each other. Did I misunderstand him, or am I missing something?
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No! I don't believe you are missing anything. He didn't say that they do not absorb ANY oil.....they just don't absorb as much as reactive do!
So,having said that,this means they push a lot of oil downlane rather than absorbing it.
Also, when they do absorb as much oil as the ball will take, meaning saturated.....they stop hooking as much as they did before they absorbed all the oil.
No conflict....just facts! ::) ::) ;)
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So all the years that I threw urethane[many years ago I might add] I should have sanded them after every 3 game set? I know we wiped of the ball after every shot and cleaned them, but the only time they got sanded was when they got tracked up. Are the new urethane balls different so that the cover is saturated in a very short period of time compared to the "old" urethane. Were we losing performance and just not realizing it? Maybe because years ago the volume was way less and not as much was on the ball after every shot. Mo is one of the smartest in the game. Not trying to second guess him or anyone. Just didn't jive with me.
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A lot of the newer urethane balls are NOT pure urethane. They are kind of a hybrid blend or reactathane, if you will, so they suck up more oil then the older pieces do!
Now this is not the case for all urethane balls being made now, of course.
And yes, in the old days you were losing performance the more you bowled with the urethane, but, more than likely....you just adjusted!
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The volume nowadays is about 10 times higher than back in the urethane days.
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Makes more sense now. Thanks to both of you for your responses.
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Original urethane from years ago doesn't hook nearly as much as todays "urethanes" do. I have a Columbia Beast Blue urethane that is no where close to as strong as todays Hammer Purple pearl urethane.
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I think Mo is saying urethane depends on mechanical friction only to hook (reactives have chemical friction in addition) and a true urethane ball's cover quickly gets saturated with oil but only on the outside of the cover stock. Especially since old urethane didn't flare much and the oil has no where to go since old urethane absorbs oil in the cover stock itself at about 1/20 to 1/50 the rate of modern reactives, the ball loses traction and reaction later in a block. Which is true in my experience. In addition urethane loses surface so simply cleaning oil off not enough after while. In general urethane needs more surface to perform (especially on modern heavier oil) so letting one lane shine is generally not ideal unless on lower volume or revzilla. Old urethane though weaker and earlier generally also does hold its surface longer imo. Faball Blue Hammer in my opinion was such a legend in part because held its surface better than any other ball I have owned. A real bear to polish as well. Also Mo is super smart but contradicts himself often when business conditions change. He used to be totally against symmetrical cores until he wasn't.
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I think Mo is saying urethane depends on mechanical friction only to hook (reactives have chemical friction in addition) and a true urethane ball's cover quickly gets saturated with oil but only on the outside of the cover stock. Especially since old urethane didn't flare much and the oil has no where to go since old urethane absorbs oil in the cover stock itself at about 1/20 to 1/50 the rate of modern reactives, the ball loses traction and reaction later in a block. Which is true in my experience. In addition urethane loses surface so simply cleaning oil off not enough after while. In general urethane needs more surface to perform (especially on modern heavier oil) so letting one lane shine is generally not ideal unless on lower volume or revzilla. Old urethane though weaker and earlier generally also does hold its surface longer imo. Faball Blue Hammer in my opinion was such a legend in part because held its surface better than any other ball I have owned. A real bear to polish as well. Also Mo is super smart but contradicts himself often when business conditions change. He used to be totally against symmetrical cores until he wasn't.
And now with weight holes soon to be no more he is back to the all in on asyms mentality again.
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And now with weight holes soon to be no more he is back to the all in on asyms mentality again.
Makes some sense and to be fair at end of day selling balls is still one of his main hats which is why grain of salt and all that.
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While what Mo says always has merit, his tendency is typically to use methods that maximize the specs of any given ball. Pin down layouts will always serve a purpose for bowlers wanting to create a specific reaction that falls outside the expectations of what Mo is trying to achieve with the numbers. Its not a perfect science, and there are way too many variables in the bowling world to make any blanket statements about anything.
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So why would you NOT want to "maximize the specs" of a bowling ball. Why would you want to cripple it?
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So why would you NOT want to "maximize the specs" of a bowling ball. Why would you want to cripple it?
Maximizing and crippling are not the only options. It's not like if you don't drill every ball 3-3/4*20 you're crippling the ball.
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So why would you NOT want to "maximize the specs" of a bowling ball. Why would you want to cripple it?
Maximizing and crippling are not the only options. It's not like if you don't drill every ball 3-3/4*20 you're crippling the ball.
^this. With Mo's super duper magnum cores often all you are maximizing is roll out. Have to drill a lot his balls weaker if want to have any chance of ever using them on house shot.
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So why would you NOT want to "maximize the specs" of a bowling ball. Why would you want to cripple it?
This is the mentality you get from people when Mo gives you a biased opinion vs what the numbers, software, and even throwbot shows you. If undrilled the ball diff is .055 and after drilling pin up is .060 and pin down is .050 did you cripple anything? Considering we are talking about a difference of .010 and thats measured in 100 and 1000ths of an inch. What does that really mean in ball reaction? Very little.
Any deviation from 3 3/8" pin to pap leads to a decrease in flare. That doesn't mean crippling ball reaction it means a change in flare and ball shape. How the ball reacts. If the pin is up or down isn't going to matter as much as the pin to pap. Blueprint shows this, thorwbot even shows this. The flare difference is very minimal when comparing any same pin to pap distance when up or down.
In this video on the low rev player pin down goes longer then snaps then pin up.....then for the 300 and 400 rev bowler the pin up and pin down are on top of each other.. At 600 rpms the pin down ball is actually hooking more/sooner. The throwbot could easily get further left with this ball and cover more board then the pin up.....On no the horror of such crippling ball reaction.
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In the video, it said that the suggested new layouts were based on a 5 inch PAP and to adjust the drill angle for a different horizontal number.
My PAP is 4 - 3/8 right and 5/8 up. What adjustment should I make for the suggested drill angles?
Is it a constant adjustment to all of the symmetrical and asymmetrical layouts or does it change for each one?
Thanks for any replies.
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In the video, it said that the suggested new layouts were based on a 5 inch PAP and to adjust the drill angle for a different horizontal number.
My PAP is 4 - 3/8 right and 5/8 up. What adjustment should I make for the suggested drill angles?
Is it a constant adjustment to all of the symmetrical and asymmetrical layouts or does it change for each one?
Thanks for any replies.
What ball is it for, what condition, what style bowler? Lot of variables to factor. The biggest thing I focus on is pin to pap, second is mb placement if the ball is asymmetric.
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I think you misunderstood , it is just a example of a players horizontal pap distance (zero vertical ).
So you use the drill angle , pin to pap distance and val angel , and instead of using 5 inch, you use your pap cordinates to get back to the center of your grip.
Hope this helps :)
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Thanks for the replies, Ignitebowling and Speeddemon.
What I saw in the video linked above, where Mo is showing off their new drill layouts for both symmetric and asymmetric balls, there was a statement under the layout choices.
This is about 43:15 into it:
TRUE SYMMETRIC
This chart uses a 5" horizontal axis co-ordinate. Adjust the drilling angle for other horizontal co-ordinates. Always use the pin to PAP distance and VAL angle to get the desired ball motion.
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Thanks for the replies, Ignitebowling and Speeddemon.
What I saw in the video linked above, where Mo is showing off their new drill layouts for both symmetric and asymmetric balls, there was a statement under the layout choices.
This is about 43:15 into it:
TRUE SYMMETRIC
This chart uses a 5" horizontal axis co-ordinate. Adjust the drilling angle for other horizontal co-ordinates. Always use the pin to PAP distance and VAL angle to get the desired ball motion.
Then below that and while talking he says the drill angle doesn't matter on a symmetric because the end results will be somewhere near the thumb. The drill angle only moves the cg location on a symmetric ball.
So when you see the pics of the layout and you have the proshop lay the ball out for your pap and it has a horizontal distance of 3.5"s and a vertical distance of 1/2" up it will look different from the ball pictured in the videos or diagrams with a 5" horizontal axis point. It doesn't mean it isn't correct, it is the correct layout based off of your pap vs the example. It is just referencing the pap used in the examples.
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Thanks for the replies, Ignitebowling and Speeddemon.
What I saw in the video linked above, where Mo is showing off their new drill layouts for both symmetric and asymmetric balls, there was a statement under the layout choices.
This is about 43:15 into it:
TRUE SYMMETRIC
This chart uses a 5" horizontal axis co-ordinate. Adjust the drilling angle for other horizontal co-ordinates. Always use the pin to PAP distance and VAL angle to get the desired ball motion.
Then below that and while talking he says the drill angle doesn't matter on a symmetric because the end results will be somewhere near the thumb. The drill angle only moves the cg location on a symmetric ball.
So when you see the pics of the layout and you have the proshop lay the ball out for your pap and it has a horizontal distance of 3.5"s and a vertical distance of 1/2" up it will look different from the ball pictured in the videos or diagrams with a 5" horizontal axis point. It doesn't mean it isn't correct, it is the correct layout based off of your pap vs the example. It is just referencing the pap used in the examples.
Thanks for the reply.
I understand all of that, but is that why Mo says the drill angle doesn't matter because you will be adjusting it to compensate for a different horizontal distance? If so, then how do you figure out what the drill angle is for a set horizontal distance like 4 - 3/8? If it doesn't matter, then why did he post that statement about adjusting it? Why not just say, use these numbers and only adjust the drill angle when you have to place the pin further away than one inch from the fingers?
Just trying to figure out what that statement actually meant. I probably tend to over think things based on a technical background.
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I think it is easy to get confused if you only read the statement on the board, but if you listen to Mo he tells us that the five inch horizontal pap is only a example pap from a fictitious player.
He altso tells us that the drill angle can be anything from 20-90 degree it doesnt matter because the mass bias on a symetric ball will always end up in the thumb hole , since we no longer uses weightholes.
Sorry for any bad translations , english is not my first language so sometimes google translate happens ;)
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Here, let me give this a shot.
All drill sheets are just points of reference, and have to have some sort of made up pap to show what the layout might be, but they're just points of reference, so that when the guy that wants layout xyz from the drill sheet doesn't come in and say "You screwed up! My ball doesn't look like the drill sheet." even though the sheet shows the layout for a pap which is 5x0 and his pap is 3.5x1
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Okay, thanks for all the help, appreciate it.