BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: 2handedrook12 on March 30, 2015, 11:09:08 PM
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Anyone believe in the MO hole?
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Not as much as I believe I'm a reactive ball will hook more in the backend when you're able to increase the RG and differential with a carefully placed extra hole. ......I guess I do believe in it then. Doesn't make it a great idea though.
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They do work, when done correctly. I did one on a wrecker, and it turned it into a monster on back with great length. I usally use it when I need more length later on a block.
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It deff works...turned my retired iq tour into a great ball again..added some polish and it increased the backend even more.
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Anyone believe in the MO hole?
This is not religion; it's physics, the real world.
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You know the irony of the MO hole? Years ago when he came out with the Awesome Hook and Seek and Destroy; he mentioned that he didn't understand why people want such skid/flip reactions unless they like shooting at back row pins all night. Now he comes out with a hole that increases the skid/flip reaction. Years ago you had to have the midlane read in order to have a high carry percentage and skid/flip would result in a lower carry percentage. So wonder why he would come out with something that increases the angularity and entry angle.
But to answer your question; yes it does work. My pro shop guy did an LT-48 with one and he said he saw about 2-3 boards more hook on the backend.
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You know the irony of the MO hole? Years ago when he came out with the Awesome Hook and Seek and Destroy; he mentioned that he didn't understand why people want such skid/flip reactions unless they like shooting at back row pins all night. Now he comes out with a hole that increases the skid/flip reaction. Years ago you had to have the midlane read in order to have a high carry percentage and skid/flip would result in a lower carry percentage. So wonder why he would come out with something that increases the angularity and entry angle.
My guess: 95% of the people today have 20 mph ball speed and 100 rpms. They need weight holes like this.
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Not sure I know what the definition of a motion hole is. Is it any hole that is used to impact ball reaction, not needed for static balance rules. Is it a hole designed to increase flare, but not a hole used to decrease flare ( axis holes for example ).
I always lay out my equipment so that I can use a hole to impact the hook shape without making the ball illegal. Prior to the strong asymmetric I often used a hole in the lower quadrant 3 inches from my axis for balls that I wanted to use from deep angles. I more commonly use axis holes to smooth off the reaction of balls, and still often do that with my symmetric arsenal ( my IQ tour became even more versatile with an axis hole ).
Nothing in my current arsenal has a balance hole other than my IQ tour. I also only have one asymmetric in my arsenal ( black widow legend ). I bowl mostly on tournament patterns, and don't really want any so called motion holes.
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http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:MOtion_Hole_Symmetrical_Instructions.pdf
Go to the .pdf and read the instructions, then watch the video, then read the instructions again. Note that the Motion Hole is recommended only for symmetrical balls. -- JohnP
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Bottom line, extra holes can and do impact the shape of the ball reaction depending on where they are placed. This is true on symmetrical balls, not so much on asymmetrical balls.
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I tried it once on a Tropical Heat Blue/Purple solid and it was excellent for playing deep inside or when the lanes had alot of down lane friction and I just needed alittle extra to get the 10 pin out. I put the largest weight hole you could use as a motion hole. It really was an excellent combination of ball and layout/motion hole for what I used it for. I stopped using 16lb balls and got rid of it. Should revisit the layout sooner than later.
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http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:MOtion_Hole_Symmetrical_Instructions.pdf
Go to the .pdf and read the instructions, then watch the video, then read the instructions again. Note that the Motion Hole is recommended only for symmetrical balls. -- JohnP
[/quhttp://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:MOtion_Hole_Symmetrical_Instructions.pdf
Go to the .pdf and read the instructions, then watch the video, then read the instructions again. Note that the Motion Hole is recommended only for symmetrical balls. -- JohnP
What? It does not say recommended only for symmetrical balls. In the instructions it even gives you the measurements one is 10" from pin (symmetric) and 11" from pin (Assymetric). I did this on a Assymetric ball and it was just fine.
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There was a whole thread on bowling chat that Mo was involved in and after some research he suggested to no longer do motion holes on asymmetrical balls. He wanted to do more research on them and the hole before publishing final guide lines. I think in the end the motion hole on the asymmetrical ball was determined not as effective as other layouts for that particular type of ball.
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http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:MOtion_Hole_Symmetrical_Instructions.pdf (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:MOtion_Hole_Symmetrical_Instructions.pdf)
Go to the .pdf and read the instructions, then watch the video, then read the instructions again. Note that the Motion Hole is recommended only for symmetrical balls. -- JohnP
[/quhttp://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:MOtion_Hole_Symmetrical_Instructions.pdf (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:MOtion_Hole_Symmetrical_Instructions.pdf)
Go to the .pdf and read the instructions, then watch the video, then read the instructions again. Note that the Motion Hole is recommended only for symmetrical balls. -- JohnP
What? It does not say recommended only for symmetrical balls. In the instructions it even gives you the measurements one is 10" from pin (symmetric) and 11" from pin (Assymetric). I did this on a Assymetric ball and it was just fine.
There was a whole thread on bowling chat that Mo was involved in and after some research he suggested to no longer do motion holes on asymmetrical balls. He wanted to do more research on them and the hole before publishing final guide lines. I think in the end the motion hole on the asymmetrical ball was determined not as effective as other layouts for that particular type of ball.
The motion hole will work on an asymmetrical core, the difficulty comes in getting an asymmetric ball to be statically legal after drilling with a complimentary pin and psa placement for any given player.
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This will probably cause some controversy because it kind of goes back to the realm of static weights but I did some testing on Blueprint and found that it did increase the back end reaction and continuation. The thing I found is that the "hole" itself didn't really have an effect. It was more about the top weight and having the ball flare an amount so that the top weight would essentially be on the side of the ball when it got toward the end of the lane. The motion hole creates added top weight. I did testing with balls with the motion hole creating 3 oz of top weight and a ball without a motion hole, with high top weight that resulted in 3 oz of top weight after the gripping holes were drilled. The results were similar with both balls. That 3 oz of top weight goes to the side of the ball and results in about a 2 degree increase in entry angle and 2 -3 more boards on the backend. Of course the results may vary based on your ball, surface,speed, rotation and RPMs.
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No question the so called motion hole impacts static weight. That is why we always called them balance holes, even when we weren't using them for balance, but to create a different roll. My first experience with holes was using axis holes on a pancake block Black U Dot, and Black Angle. It definitely smoothed out the break point, although those balls already had a smooth look by todays standards.
I have also used extra holes on two piece balls, both symmetrical and asymmetrical. The impact of those holes seems to vary considerably depending on the core structure of the ball. Little impact on asymmetricals. Noticeable impact on some symmetrical layouts, but less so on others. Extra holes clearly impact static weight, but can impact dynamic balance of some balls also.
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You know the irony of the MO hole? Years ago when he came out with the Awesome Hook and Seek and Destroy; he mentioned that he didn't understand why people want such skid/flip reactions unless they like shooting at back row pins all night. Now he comes out with a hole that increases the skid/flip reaction. Years ago you had to have the midlane read in order to have a high carry percentage and skid/flip would result in a lower carry percentage. So wonder why he would come out with something that increases the angularity and entry angle.
But to answer your question; yes it does work. My pro shop guy did an LT-48 with one and he said he saw about 2-3 boards more hook on the backend.
It isn't irony it is sales and hypocrisy. He also stated at one time while under Morich that there was no need in symmetric core bowling balls. Todays oils, and todays conditions, for todays bowlers need.....ASYMMETRIC core balls. Then eventually they started coming out with symmetric core balls using recycled Brunswick overseas cores. I guess todays changed back to yesterday?
In reference to your statement about increased backends ect the same things comes up in the Guru video. Some of the other balls hooked sooner and struck........BUT......the Guru was longer and stronger....wait for it........creating better entry for carry.
I've seen it several times on bowlingchat where he says things contradicting himself depending on which idea, or product he is wanting to push.
It is a business and I get that, but you lose credibility with me when you do that because there is no longer any reason to trust what they are saying. If it varies depending on if it is truth or a sell then I will look else where.
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It isn't irony it is sales and hypocrisy. He also stated at one time while under Morich that there was no need in symmetric core bowling balls. Todays oils, and todays conditions, for todays bowlers need.....ASYMMETRIC core balls. Then eventually they started coming out with symmetric core balls using recycled Brunswick overseas cores. I guess todays changed back to yesterday?
In reference to your statement about increased backends ect the same things comes up in the Guru video. Some of the other balls hooked sooner and struck........BUT......the Guru was longer and stronger....wait for it........creating better entry for carry.
I've seen it several times on bowlingchat where he says things contradicting himself depending on which idea, or product he is wanting to push.
It is a business and I get that, but you lose credibility with me when you do that because there is no longer any reason to trust what they are saying. If it varies depending on if it is truth or a sell then I will look else where.
Two more for this list:
Years back I read a comment (I think it was in one of the early BTM's) where he was talking about Mass Bias when it was just starting to be talked about and said it was nothing but marketing and basically didn't do anything. Now look at it.
or a couple of year ago the thoughts on the word "continuation"
quote:
"It's marketing, man. Marketing is another word for lying, on occasion. It's BULL PUCKY!"
Then after a move to Radical and a new core design:
"It creates more continuation in our lowest price point, BETTER VALUE!"
and continuation was defined
Continuation is a longer, more gradual hook. That is not related to the total amount of the change of direction of the ball. Which could have a affect on entry angle.
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NICE!!!! I wish I could remember a few of the others I had read before i stopped going to bc so much. I know he knows and has done a lot in terms of bowling. More then I will ever begin to. I also know just enough not to fall for some bull$hit because I remember your previous statements on the subject when $$$ wasn't at stake.
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Yes he has the knowing of a great many things, Sometimes I wonder though if it's something like :
"It's marketing if I didn't think of it first and it's no longer marketing once I've improved on it."
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My opinion:
If you have used a MOtion hole and like it - use them. If you have used and do not like - don't use them. If you have never tried one, make an informed decision and try it or not.
I have never used one, and I am not opposed to trying one. My thoughts because one thing I have not consistently heard is a negative impact on the ball performance.
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I had this done on a blue/blue 900 Global Hook. I really liked the reaction, but it seemed to be more condition specific. Very long, very strong, sharp back-end reaction. I haven't thrown it in a while after playing with the cover and couldn't find a surface adjustment that would work well. I think I'm going to try it again just for fun.
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I punched up a Freakin Frantic with the layout suggested .I rolled it on a fresh house shot. Then took it into my friends pro shop and drilled a 1" hole 4" deep and took it back out to the same lane I was just on.I saw a increase of 4/5 boards,all on the back end of the lane
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My take is this: It's not a belief or magic that the hole Motion hole changes the ball motion it is physics. Are there multiple ways to create (drill) or "buy" a particular ball motion? Yes of course. I have used it on a hammer low flare and for me it keeps that symetrical ball from rolling out too early and arcing longer (continuation). It gives me a motion different than my other low flare and some of my asymetrical snappy motion balls. Is all the hype a little bit of marketing? Of course.
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Back when the first core heavy symetrics came out ( Cuda C, Piranha C ), I was drilling leverage weight which required a so called motion hole. What I noticed most was when I tried to flatten my shot out for shooting 10 pins. The ball still wanted to tip on the back end more than a straight up drilling on burned up patterns. We would call it continuation today. The stronger your release in terms of revs, the less you see the impact of these holes, but us lower rev guys can see it more.
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On the right conditions, the reaction can't be beat. This seems to work best (for me) on broken down conditions where I'm able to get inside a little and open up. I've thrown 3 300s over the year and a half with a wrecker with a motion hole. I had 2 in my previous 25+ years bowling...
Scott