BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: carlos on January 16, 2018, 08:14:46 AM
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A bowler was found not having a USBC card. Looking at rule 101 is it clear cut for the bowlers team to forfeit all the games bowled up to the time she got it ? The league did not have a rule addressing this infraction. First time it has come up. Thanks for any insite.
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A bowler was found not having a USBC card. Looking at rule 101 is it clear cut for the bowlers team to forfeit all the games bowled up to the time she got it ? The league did not have a rule addressing this infraction. First time it has come up. Thanks for any insite.
Doesn't matter the league didn't have a rule, the USBC does.
As you said USBC Rule 101 is clear cut, the team forfeits the games she bowled in and hadn't paid the membership fee.
Rule 101 – Membership Fee Payment Requirements
To be eligible to bowl in a USBC league, a bowler must:
a. Complete an individual membership application in each league the bowler participates in.
b. Pay or show proof of payment of USBC dues and the required association membership fees in effect
for the current season before:
1. Adult membership: Completion of the bowler’s first series.
2. Youth membership: The bowler’s third session of competition.
Any team using a player who has not satisfied USBC membership eligibility requirements subjects the
games in which the bowler participated to forfeiture.
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Is it a sanctioned league?
If so then it should probably be a forfeit.
If they joined now I would vote to let it slide and let the games count.
The secretary is obviously not doing their job.
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I know I’m a UK bowler well a watcher now but sticking diligently to the rules has back fired several times for leagues and tournaments local to me.
I’ve seen bowlers no longer bowl in tourneys due to being sent home due to minor dress code violations. I’ve seen long term team mates quit leagues they’ve bowled in for twenty plus years due to their team being docked points for extremely minor infractions.
So long as the card has now been purchased and maybe backdated as they are in the UK then I’d advise leniency and a telling off over upsetting several team members who are also being punished.
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I would agree with the statements below. Tell that team to pay the sanction fee and sanction the bowler. If they refuse then they forfeit the points.
I know I’m a UK bowler well a watcher now but sticking diligently to the rules has back fired several times for leagues and tournaments local to me.
I’ve seen bowlers no longer bowl in tourneys due to being sent home due to minor dress code violations. I’ve seen long term team mates quit leagues they’ve bowled in for twenty plus years due to their team being docked points for extremely minor infractions.
So long as the card has now been purchased and maybe backdated as they are in the UK then I’d advise leniency and a telling off over upsetting several team members who are also being punished.
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subjects the games in which the bowler participated to forfeiture.
If I was the league president or secretary I'd interpret the use of the word "subjects" to mean there is some wiggle room. If this was a deliberate attempt to avoid paying the sanction fee I'd impose the penalty. If it was just an honest mistake on the bowler's part I'd make the offender sanction immediately and forget about any penalty. Remember, the penalty the USBC gives affects the entire team, not just the offending bowler. Of course, the offender might just lie about the intention. -- JohnP
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We must have our USBC CARD by the 4th week in our league. She could have forgot all together. She bowls in multiple leagues. There has to be some type of punishment just like if you were to bounce checks. We may have a answer tomorrow
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While it is ultimately the bowler's responsibility to have paid the sanction fee and filled out the application, here in New Jersey (I say that because I'm not sure how other states and other associations deal with this),
every secretary in every league I have ever been in has distributed sanction applications to every team and bowler at the start of the season. Most are preprinted with all the member's/bowler's information, because most have been int he league before; but they also distribute blanks to be filled out by first timers.
Everyone in each league has to fill out the card indicating they are paying their sanction dues in this league or which league in which association in which state, they are sanctioned. They give that card back to the secretary or the treasurer, with the money/dues paid. The secretary and/or treasurer then knows the status of each bowler in the league with regard to their sanction status.
Did this secretary or treasurer do this?
If so, shouldn't they have know about 2 weeks into the season whether this bowler had paid their dues?
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I know I’m a UK bowler well a watcher now but sticking diligently to the rules has back fired several times for leagues and tournaments local to me.
I’ve seen bowlers no longer bowl in tourneys due to being sent home due to minor dress code violations. I’ve seen long term team mates quit leagues they’ve bowled in for twenty plus years due to their team being docked points for extremely minor infractions.
Sorry but those sound like spoiled children playing in a playground, not adult bowlers.
You know the kind, "Waaa, it's my ball; if I don't get my way, I'm taking my ball and going home."
Your leagues and bowling do not need such spoiled children. Adults know the rules of whatever game/sport they're engaging in. They abide by the rules. You don't give a child leniency when they refuse to play by the same rues everyone has no problem abiding by.
Of course this all is true as long as the punishment fits the "crime". Once other "children" who "rule the roost" make rules to suit their need to grab power, all bets are off.
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Could it be that the bowler in question is a SUB and not there at beginning of league?
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I know I’m a UK bowler well a watcher now but sticking diligently to the rules has back fired several times for leagues and tournaments local to me.
I’ve seen bowlers no longer bowl in tourneys due to being sent home due to minor dress code violations. I’ve seen long term team mates quit leagues they’ve bowled in for twenty plus years due to their team being docked points for extremely minor infractions.
Sorry but those sound like spoiled children playing in a playground, not adult bowlers.
You know the kind, "Waaa, it's my ball; if I don't get my way, I'm taking my ball and going home."
Your leagues and bowling do not need such spoiled children. Adults know the rules of whatever game/sport they're engaging in. They abide by the rules. You don't give a child leniency when they refuse to play by the same rues everyone has no problem abiding by.
Of course this all is true as long as the punishment fits the "crime". Once other "children" who "rule the roost" make rules to suit their need to grab power, all bets are off.
I understand what your saying and to a point agree with it. However the rest of the team is punished too. Hurting 4 players in a team for ones infraction can feel over the top.
Adhering strictly to rules is great when you have a thriving community however people bowling several years plus in a 40 week league are a loss to the sport, they were to our small leagues. Like I say if the cards are backdated like in the UK then a simple fine for the offending person would be more in order.
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I know I’m a UK bowler well a watcher now but sticking diligently to the rules has back fired several times for leagues and tournaments local to me.
I’ve seen bowlers no longer bowl in tourneys due to being sent home due to minor dress code violations. I’ve seen long term team mates quit leagues they’ve bowled in for twenty plus years due to their team being docked points for extremely minor infractions.
Sorry but those sound like spoiled children playing in a playground, not adult bowlers.
You know the kind, "Waaa, it's my ball; if I don't get my way, I'm taking my ball and going home."
Your leagues and bowling do not need such spoiled children. Adults know the rules of whatever game/sport they're engaging in. They abide by the rules. You don't give a child leniency when they refuse to play by the same rues everyone has no problem abiding by.
Of course this all is true as long as the punishment fits the "crime". Once other "children" who "rule the roost" make rules to suit their need to grab power, all bets are off.
I understand what your saying and to a point agree with it. However the rest of the team is punished too. Hurting 4 players in a team for ones infraction can feel over the top.
But those are the rules. If you feel they are excessive, then make a suggestion to the league to change them in your by-laws. Otherwise, you're accepting them, as needs be.
Adhering strictly to rules is great when you have a thriving community however people bowling several years plus in a 40 week league are a loss to the sport, they were to our small leagues. Like I say if the cards are backdated like in the UK then a simple fine for the offending person would be more in order.
League by-laws allow changes to virtually every rule in the USBC rule book.
By the way, I agree, it seems harsh, but no one disobeys this law here. There are also check and counterbalances to insure compliance. After the individual's responsibility, there's also the team captain's responsibility. Plus as a bottom line, the captain, in USBC parlance, owns the team. You can then blame him/her for also not following the rules.
FYI There are a lot of rules in that book, on first glance, seem odd and out of place in today's environment. Until someone breaks one of those rules and is punished according to them, 99% of the bowlers don't know them and ignore them completely, UNTIL it becomes their turn. Then they become quite vociferous about how "unfair" the rule is.
Remember that by being sanctioned you're accepting every rule in that book. It's similar in concept, but not exactly the same as the idea of by living in any country, you're accepting the laws of that country. There is a saying, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse (for disobeying that law)."
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Like I say if the cards are backdated like in the UK then a simple fine for the offending person would be more in order.
They backdate cards in the UK, I Took a look at the BTBA rulebook I don't really see anything that says that's okay. They appear to have the same rule as the USBC.
If their back dating forms to show the player paying earlier than they really did, then they know their doing something wrong and trying to hide it from the assoc.
Because if there's nothing wrong with paying for your card late, then there's no reason to back date the pay date on the forms.
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"vociferous". Hmmm. Had to get my Dictionary out for that one. ??? Thanks for the lesson. ;) I learned something today. That's GREAT. ;D
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We must have our USBC CARD by the 4th week in our league. She could have forgot all together. She bowls in multiple leagues. There has to be some type of punishment just like if you were to bounce checks. We may have a answer tomorrow
Are any of the other leagues sanctioned?
If so, kinda hard to explain forgetting to get sanctioned.
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Person is a fulltime bowler and Sargent at Arms. I think things came into question when she bowled two 300 games in about a weeks time and was inquiring about awards. The other leagues are sanctioned also.
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If she didn't complete a sanction card in the league, and pay or show proof she had previously paid sanctioning fees for the current season, prior to the end of her first night on the league the games are subject to forfeiture. You can discuss the issue with the league president, but it is important to be absolutely certain the bowler isn't sanctioned before raising the issue. Many times people use their actual, full names on sanction cards but have nicknames in the scoring system. It can look like they aren't sanctioned when they actually are under a slightly different name.
If she is in other sanctioned leagues she is most likely sanctioned. If she has somehow been able to actively bowl on multiple sanctioned leagues without filling out a sanction card or paying fees on any of them, that doesn't say a lot about the secretaries of those leagues. First night of any league I have ever been on has been all about completing and accounting for the sanction cards. That is one of the league secretary's primary responsibilities, especially the first night.
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Based on CARLOS last comment it's very hard to believe this bowler is NOT sanctioned!
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Yeah. I'm sorry something doesn't add up. Full time bowler. On four leagues. Sargent-at-arms. But not sanctioned. When her other three leagues are sanctioned. As well as this one.
It only comes up because she shot honor scores.
If she isn't sanctioned, sounds like someone was trying to save a few bucks and got burned by it.
I'm sorry, but if she was trying to scam the system, tough luck. Pay the piper as well as your team(s). Rules are the rules. Again, if it wasn't accidental.
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Like I say if the cards are backdated like in the UK then a simple fine for the offending person would be more in order.
They backdate cards in the UK, I Took a look at the BTBA rulebook I don't really see anything that says that's okay. They appear to have the same rule as the USBC.
If their back dating forms to show the player paying earlier than they really did, then they know their doing something wrong and trying to hide it from the assoc.
Because if there's nothing wrong with paying for your card late, then there's no reason to back date the pay date on the forms.
Sorry you misunderstood what I mean. It’s a rules violation in the UK as it is in the US. Our rules are almost a copy paste of the USBC. Our cards run from date of original purchase but it’s easy to forget when leagues here have all different start dates. We don’t really have an off season.
It’s just I find it harsh that if it’s a “genuine†mistake (and it may seem it’s not due to the above post) then the secretary of the league should attempt to solve the problem without punishing an entire team.
Rules are rules I know but just an example here and please understand I’m not trying to be clever, so are others. Like the use of acetone on bowling balls. It is not allowed for use at any time. I have had balls drilled by many drillers both UK and US including by Mo Pinel and PBA players and all of them have used it to clean glue from the ball around the grips. By the letter of the law are those balls now illegal for use in sanctioned competition? I don’t know.
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I emailed the USBC and asked this is their response:
This is in reference to your e-mail of January 3, 2018.
I will answer your questions in the order you asked them.
Rule 101 – Membership Fee Payment Requirements say's members must pay or
show proof of payment of USBC dues and the required association
membership fees in effect for the current season before: (1. Adult
membership:) Completion of the bowler’s first series.
1-Question can a league not follow this rule and have a rule that says
you have for example 4-5 weeks to pay this fee.
Answer: No. According to USBC Rule 100a, section 1g, USBC leagues may adopt other rules, but the adopted rules must not conflict with USBC rules.
Based on the information provided, the proposed rule would conflict with USBC rule 101. Therefore, it would not be an acceptable rule to adopt.
2-Question if a player is found to have bowled for several weeks without
having a membership card ( not payed the fee ), Then pays the fee. Can
there card be back dated to cover the games bowled while the player was
not "certified"?
Answer: No. The membership card would be valid as of the date the bowler purchased it.
3-Question what are the penalties for the player? and or team that used
the player?
Answer: The games are subject to forfeiture. The bowler is considered an ineligible player and an ineligible player’s score becomes zero, and the games are not included in their
average record. The team’s score for the forfeited games are also zero. However, the scores bowled by the eligible players are counted toward their averages and any individual prizes.
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Even when I was in college and on a tight budget I paid my dues the first night and my league fees every session. But in general most leagues allow the dues to be paid within the first three weeks and I don't remember any time this was challenged. -- JohnP
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I emailed the USBC and asked this is their response:
This is in reference to your e-mail of January 3, 2018.
I will answer your questions in the order you asked them.
Rule 101 – Membership Fee Payment Requirements say's members must pay or
show proof of payment of USBC dues and the required association
membership fees in effect for the current season before: (1. Adult
membership:) Completion of the bowler’s first series.
1-Question can a league not follow this rule and have a rule that says
you have for example 4-5 weeks to pay this fee.
Answer: No. According to USBC Rule 100a, section 1g, USBC leagues may adopt other rules, but the adopted rules must not conflict with USBC rules.
Based on the information provided, the proposed rule would conflict with USBC rule 101. Therefore, it would not be an acceptable rule to adopt.
2-Question if a player is found to have bowled for several weeks without
having a membership card ( not payed the fee ), Then pays the fee. Can
there card be back dated to cover the games bowled while the player was
not "certified"?
Answer: No. The membership card would be valid as of the date the bowler purchased it.
3-Question what are the penalties for the player? and or team that used
the player?
Answer: The games are subject to forfeiture. The bowler is considered an ineligible player and an ineligible player’s score becomes zero, and the games are not included in their
average record. The team’s score for the forfeited games are also zero. However, the scores bowled by the eligible players are counted toward their averages and any individual prizes.
Thanks for going that extra mile.
You're right. They emphasize that the games are "SUBJECT" to forfeiture. However they say specifically that all those games are made forfeit; that is, the games are all awarded to the opposing team.
The unsanctioned bowler's scores are all zero.
The rest of the sanctioned team's games count toward their individual averages.
All the team's game points bowled with the unsanctioned bowler are forfeit.
"ignorance of the law is no excuse."
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I emailed the USBC and asked this is their response:
This is in reference to your e-mail of January 3, 2018.
I will answer your questions in the order you asked them.
Rule 101 – Membership Fee Payment Requirements say's members must pay or
show proof of payment of USBC dues and the required association
membership fees in effect for the current season before: (1. Adult
membership:) Completion of the bowler’s first series.
1-Question can a league not follow this rule and have a rule that says
you have for example 4-5 weeks to pay this fee.
Answer: No. According to USBC Rule 100a, section 1g, USBC leagues may adopt other rules, but the adopted rules must not conflict with USBC rules.
Based on the information provided, the proposed rule would conflict with USBC rule 101. Therefore, it would not be an acceptable rule to adopt.
2-Question if a player is found to have bowled for several weeks without
having a membership card ( not payed the fee ), Then pays the fee. Can
there card be back dated to cover the games bowled while the player was
not "certified"?
Answer: No. The membership card would be valid as of the date the bowler purchased it.
3-Question what are the penalties for the player? and or team that used
the player?
Answer: The games are subject to forfeiture. The bowler is considered an ineligible player and an ineligible player’s score becomes zero, and the games are not included in their
average record. The team’s score for the forfeited games are also zero. However, the scores bowled by the eligible players are counted toward their averages and any individual prizes.
Question answered. No wiggle room at all.
Seems that your USBC membership is slightly different to ours in that you have 12 months from date of purchase. Ours is 12 months from original purchase date. All following memberships run from that date even if purchased late.
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Seems that your USBC membership is slightly different to ours
Okay Let's see if I got what you said here:
in that you have 12 months from date of purchase.
Your saying the USBC card is good for 12 months from the original date of purchase
Ours is 12 months from original purchase date.
Your saying the UK card is good for 12 months from the original date of purchase
All following memberships run from that date even if purchased late.
Membership runs from that date even if purchased late, Something about this don't sound right.
I'm assuming what you mean here is that when someone joins a league and they fill out the sanction card form and don't pay for till say 3 weeks later. Their card is good from the date they filled out the form 3 weeks ago.
USBC Membership info:
Effective Date
Upon receipt of a membership application and the appropriate dues, membership will be valid:
a. For the season starting August 1 through July 31.
b. Through October 1 of the following season for summer leagues and tournaments. Youth who turn
20 during the season are not granted the October 1 extension for tournament play; youth
membership expires July 31 of the season in which they turn 20 years old. If a youth member
bowling in a summer league turns 20 during the season and the league continues beyond July 31,
the bowler may complete the league as a youth bowler.
For membership to be effective as of the date purchased in a league, the league secretary/bowling
center must forward the league membership dues, application cards and league application to the
local association/league processor (youth) within 30 days. Otherwise, membership benefits are not
effective until the date received at the local association office/league processor (youth).
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if this bowler is in 4 leagues, if even one is in the same local association wouldn't they have paid all national, state and local dues already?
I know we are supposed to fill out the card for each league we join, but national, state and local dues are only each only paid once.
If they are scaming the system to not pay some of the dues (likely local) then screw them and if that hurts the team, so be it. act like an adult and play by the rules.
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Seems that your USBC membership is slightly different to ours
Okay Let's see if I got what you said here:
in that you have 12 months from date of purchase.
Your saying the USBC card is good for 12 months from the original date of purchase
Ours is 12 months from original purchase date.
Your saying the UK card is good for 12 months from the original date of purchase
All following memberships run from that date even if purchased late.
Membership runs from that date even if purchased late, Something about this don't sound right.
I'm assuming what you mean here is that when someone joins a league and they fill out the sanction card form and don't pay for till say 3 weeks later. Their card is good from the date they filled out the form 3 weeks ago.
USBC Membership info:
Effective Date
Upon receipt of a membership application and the appropriate dues, membership will be valid:
a. For the season starting August 1 through July 31.
b. Through October 1 of the following season for summer leagues and tournaments. Youth who turn
20 during the season are not granted the October 1 extension for tournament play; youth
membership expires July 31 of the season in which they turn 20 years old. If a youth member
bowling in a summer league turns 20 during the season and the league continues beyond July 31,
the bowler may complete the league as a youth bowler.
For membership to be effective as of the date purchased in a league, the league secretary/bowling
center must forward the league membership dues, application cards and league application to the
local association/league processor (youth) within 30 days. Otherwise, membership benefits are not
effective until the date received at the local association office/league processor (youth).
Ok. Example from my friends card.
My friend bought his membership 31 November 2016. It runs out 30 November 2017. His doesn’t need it for his league just senior tournaments. So on January 3 this year he orders his new card. Date of membership now states 31 November 2017 expiry 30 November 2018.
Whatever it says on site. This is how it works.
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We must have our USBC CARD by the 4th week in our league. She could have forgot all together. She bowls in multiple leagues. There has to be some type of punishment just like if you were to bounce checks. We may have a answer tomorrow
No sanction card at all? Sounds like ALL her bowling this year should be forfeited, in ALL her leagues, not just this one.
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Adhering strictly to rules is great when you have a thriving community however people bowling several years plus in a 40 week league are a loss to the sport, they were to our small leagues. Like I say if the cards are backdated like in the UK then a simple fine for the offending person would be more in order.
Sorry but a several year plus bowler bowling 40 week leagues, knows the rules. I could understand granting leniency to a first time league bowler because they just didn't know any better, but not the bowler you are describing here.
This whole idea of only following rules that you want to follow is getting out of hand.
No respect for rules = no respect for the game.
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Ok. Example from my friends card.
My friend bought his membership 31 November 2016. It runs out 30 November 2017. His doesn’t need it for his league just senior tournaments. So on January 3 this year he orders his new card. Date of membership now states 31 November 2017 expiry 30 November 2018.
Whatever it says on site. This is how it works.
Okay I follow that,
The BTPA card is effective from "November 31 to November 30 the next year"
The USBC card is effective from "August 1 through July 31 of the next year"
So no difference other than dates used.
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Now your friend
You say he doesn't need a card to bowl league, So I assume it's a unsanctioned league that doesn't require one.
But he does need one to bowl in sanctioned events such as the senior tournaments.
correct?
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If so then from Nov. 30, 2017 to Jan. 2, 2018 he would be unsanctioned and thus couldn't participate legally in sanctioned events (such as senior tournaments during that period) if he couldn't show he had a valid card.
But your saying if he bought a card on Jan. 3, 2018 it's retroactive back to Nov. 30, 2017.
So if he somehow bowled in a sanctioned league/tournament during that unsanctioned period, all would be okay
Here's a scenario on Dec 1, 2017 your friend who doesn't have a valid card somehow bowls in a sanctioned tournament, he wins!! The payoff is on Jan. 3, 2018.
He goes down to pickup his winnings, They say we checked found out you didn't have a valid card so your DQ'd.
He say's wait a minute I'll pay for card right now and they hand him the prize money.
Would you say that was fair to everyone that had their valid card at the time?
or how about this if a card is retroactively valid from the date you buy it back to Nov. 30.
Then conceivably a player (or whole team for that matter) could bowl a entire sanctioned league without cards and if the team comes in first and someone says they didn't have cards so they forfeit.
So they just pay for their cards then and say we still win the cards are retroactive back to the start of the league.
Would that be fair?
I'd just about bet the cards in the UK don't work that way, being retroactive so that the games of someone who bowled without a valid card all of sudden become sanctioned.
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Ok. Example from my friends card.
My friend bought his membership 31 November 2016. It runs out 30 November 2017. His doesn’t need it for his league just senior tournaments. So on January 3 this year he orders his new card. Date of membership now states 31 November 2017 expiry 30 November 2018.
Whatever it says on site. This is how it works.
Okay I follow that,
The BTPA card is effective from "November 31 to November 30 the next year"
The USBC card is effective from "August 1 through July 31 of the next year"
So no difference other than dates used.
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Now your friend
You say he doesn't need a card to bowl league, So I assume it's a unsanctioned league that doesn't require one.
But he does need one to bowl in sanctioned events such as the senior tournaments.
correct?
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If so then from Nov. 30, 2017 to Jan. 2, 2018 he would be unsanctioned and thus couldn't participate legally in sanctioned events (such as senior tournaments during that period) if he couldn't show he had a valid card.
But your saying if he bought a card on Jan. 3, 2018 it's retroactive back to Nov. 30, 2017.
So if he somehow bowled in a sanctioned league/tournament during that unsanctioned period, all would be okay
Here's a scenario on Dec 1, 2017 your friend who doesn't have a valid card somehow bowls in a sanctioned tournament, he wins!! The payoff is on Jan. 3, 2018.
He goes down to pickup his winnings, They say we checked found out you didn't have a valid card so your DQ'd.
He say's wait a minute I'll pay for card right now and they hand him the prize money.
Would you say that was fair to everyone that had their valid card at the time?
or how about this if a card is retroactively valid from the date you buy it back to Nov. 30.
Then conceivably a player (or whole team for that matter) could bowl a entire sanctioned league without cards and if the team comes in first and someone says they didn't have cards so they forfeit.
So they just pay for their cards then and say we still win the cards are retroactive back to the start of the league.
Would that be fair?
I'd just about bet the cards in the UK don't work that way, being retroactive so that the games of someone who bowled without a valid card all of sudden become sanctioned.
No you still misunderstand the date thing. Mine is 14 November and will be due the 14 November the following year. Everyone’s is a different date dependant on the date when they originally joined. You can see it could be quite easy to bowl one week of league before realising the mistake. Tournaments are different as cards are inspected when you sign in. No card no entry.
Ok now I remember why I stopped commenting on the site after Sawbones passed away and my friend SrKegler had to leave due to ill health.
It seems that having an opinion different from others can now be frowned upon.
I’ll also admit I’m a big softie and almost always tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes to my loss.
All I said originally was if it was a genuine slip of the mind to an inexperienced bowler (and again after several posts down the page it seems it’s not, so throw the book at them) then maybe something could have been done to save upsetting players in the team who were completely not at fault in the so called mistake. Due to the actual rule there isn’t any wiggle room.
In this vast world where there is so much going on in the lives of people who bowl. It may not be they’re top priority to remember the date their membership is due, as I’m sure several on here have forgotten a birthday at some time in their life. Ok I understand that with your membership having a set date when all are due, does make it more difficult to forget.
I’m sorry if I upset anyone.
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Thinking we all should agree that we disagree and be done with the whole scenario. ::)
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Ok now I remember why I stopped commenting on the site after Sawbones passed away and my friend SrKegler had to leave due to ill health.
It seems that having an opinion different from others can now be frowned upon.
I'm sorry if my questioning your comment/opinion and my not understanding you has upset you.
As far as I know, I and no one else has said you couldn't have a opinion different from others.
Just because someone doesn't take a comment at face value and questions or disagrees with it, doesn't mean they are saying you don't have a right to express one.
Now if you don't want anyone to comment on or disagree with your posts or only agree with what you say, then your right not too post.
Because that's not going to happen.
And yes jim I think we're done here.
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The decission has been made. I was told our local USBC person got involved and contacted someone on the National level. They came up with the team forfeiting 6 games. We were told after the protest was filed they were going back 15 days from the day of the protest to forfeit basically 2 weeks of games. I'm not sure where that ruling is, but that's where things stand. I think it should be 10 games no matter what place the team is in. The person said they did there sanction card on-line but could not come up with the confirmation info. Guess I need to get a better understanding of the rules. Thanks for all of the very informative information from everyone. One thought is that if all game are forfeited the entire team may quit. I say " Tough lesson to learn"
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The decission has been made. I was told our local USBC person got involved and contacted someone on the National level. They came up with the team forfeiting 6 games. We were told after the protest was filed they were going back 15 days from the day of the protest to forfeit basically 2 weeks of games. I'm not sure where that ruling is, but that's where things stand. I think it should be 10 games no matter what place the team is in.
The 15 days falls in line with Rule 119 – Protest/Appeal Procedures which says you have to file protests within 15 days of the series.
The person said they did there sanction card on-line but could not come up with the confirmation info.
Being a USBC member, you can check it yourself. Just go to the find a member on bowl.com or use the USBC app. punch their name in you can see their info and card.
Guess I need to get a better understanding of the rules. Thanks for all of the very informative information from everyone. One thought is that if all game are forfeited the entire team may quit. I say " Tough lesson to learn"
That's something every bowler should do (but most don't) is be familiar with the rulebook.
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We must have our USBC CARD by the 4th week in our league. She could have forgot all together. She bowls in multiple leagues. There has to be some type of punishment just like if you were to bounce checks. We may have a answer tomorrow
If she is sanctioned in one league then she is sanctioned in all leagues so that really isn't a good excuse. When our league starts the sanction cards are in the envelope so there really isn't an excuse and rules are there for a purpose.
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The decission has been made. I was told our local USBC person got involved and contacted someone on the National level. They came up with the team forfeiting 6 games. We were told after the protest was filed they were going back 15 days from the day of the protest to forfeit basically 2 weeks of games. I'm not sure where that ruling is, but that's where things stand. I think it should be 10 games no matter what place the team is in. The person said they did there sanction card on-line but could not come up with the confirmation info. Guess I need to get a better understanding of the rules. Thanks for all of the very informative information from everyone. One thought is that if all game are forfeited the entire team may quit. I say " Tough lesson to learn"
Would this not also call into scrutiny the scores from that person's other leagues? Granted, someone from those leagues will need to file the complaint, but during the time in question of not having a USBC card, wouldn't ALL scores bowled during the time in question be subject to forfeiture?
BL.
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The person is either sanctioned or they are not and it in my opinion if all the leagues the person is bowling in are sanctioned leagues then that person is in violation and the scores should not count.
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In a way, I kinda feel bad for this person. They may have tried to skirt the system, but who skirts the system then asks about awards?
One question I have is if only the last two weeks were forfeited, does that mean USBC will honor the award scores if they didn't fall in that particular two week window?
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Not credit for two 300 games. Both were in the same week.
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In the league that I am sanctioned the Secretary puts the sanction cards in the envelope on the very first week and you have to fill it out if sanctioned in another league or pay the dues right there or you don't bowl and that would have taken care of this problem. I really don't feel sorry for the person not getting credit for the 300 games as it was that persons responsibility to get sanctioned.
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Isn't it the secretary's job to make sure the cards(applications) are returned???
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It is in the leagues that I bowl in
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[/s]'sigh'
#USBCcardsR4suckas
#Ididn'tfoul #thefoullightsRouttogetme
#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
smh