Post by: Juggernaut on March 27, 2009, 09:35:38 AM
I thought this was worth more people seeing, so I cut and pasted it here. I hope Pat doesn't mind.
quote:
Thanks for the reply. You are correct, we are going to do something soon about the site. The site is outdated, but in honesty we do have many of the items instock still. Our site is outdated, but to say we are done, kaput, toast, is an outright lie.
We we one of the first online websites around. We offered fair prices that usually with shipping was the same as a pro shop or maybe 10.00 cheaper at the most, and that would be mostly due to the fact the customer did not have to pay sales tax. We did a robust business and everyone was happy.
We offer more than just changing boxes, we spend time with our customers giving advice and help, (I have spent over 2 hours with a customer before), as I love to teach and help bowlers. Spending over 10 years on the PWBA tour with my wife Anne Marie and some of that time as a ball Rep for Storm, we do have insight that can be benefical to a bowler, and immensly enjoy giving back and helping bowlers.
Along with Fred Borden, in 1996 we were first to use C.A.T.S. as a teaching tool, and set up a C.A.T.S. lane in Salt Lake City at the ABC tournament and in 1997 in Reno we also set up Lane 81 with C.A.T.S for the WIBC and gave over 1400 lessons with the women. We also did the A.B.C. Tournament and the W.I.B.C tournaments in 1998. We have over 50,000 happy customers who constantly stay in touch. We work off of word of mouth and repeat business.
A few years back we were going full steam ahead with a new design and pushing forward when, we decided that we did not want to participate in the destruction of brick and mortar shops. So we went a different route and have been selling mostly older equipment online, and have fun actually helping customers get that old favorite ball they wished they could find one more time.
We also had personal reasons for slowing down the website as we had an elderly family member that we had to take care of on a daily basis for the last 4 years, who just passed this Jan.
We do intend to update the website before the fall season, but make no mistake we have a lot of inventory old and new.
But please hear me bowlers. These cheap prices are a cancer. It is like seeing a beautiful home and it looks great on the outside, but inside it is being destroyed by termites and it slowly falling apart. This is what is happening to the Brick and Mortar Pro Shops. Make no mistake, good people, people with knowledge and who really care about the bowler are being killed by these discount online bowling sites. The pro shop business is not a get rich quick business for most, and it is hard to make less than 40% gross margins and still make a decent living. Just look at the numbers. Most pro shops in this country do less than 100,000 in sales a year, but many are operated by knowledgable, caring, people. These people have family, kids that what to go to college, eat, etc.
One day you will walk into a bowling center and things will look like they did decades ago. The guy at the counter will tell that when the mechanic gets time he will drill your ball and give you a lesson.
In my humble opinion bowling is slowly turning into a total recreational leisure time activity, the sport end is slowly but surly dieing and going away. Not having qualified, knowledgable proshop operators will be the demise of bowling as a "SPORT".
I am also an advid golfer, 4 hdcp. I cannot purchase any top of the line golf ball, golf club, golf shoes, any cheaper online than I can at a brick and mortar shop. The PGA and golf manufacturers have made sure their club pros are protected and that they can make a decent living and are there to help and promote the game of golf, they are the first line ambassadors for their sport, and get the income and respect they deserve from their industry. This is not the case the the bowling industry.
Okay, I wrote a book, but this has been on my chest for over 6 years. Please think about this bowlers, short term gain, for long term loss.
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Norm Duke was right
Good transactions list in my profile
My Bowl.com member page (http://"http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=2243&suffix=4831")
Post by: Steven on March 27, 2009, 06:03:01 PM
quote:
A few years back we were going full steam ahead with a new design and pushing forward when, we decided that we did not want to participate in the destruction of brick and mortar shops.......
But please hear me bowlers. These cheap prices are a cancer. It is like seeing a beautiful home and it looks great on the outside, but inside it is being destroyed by termites and it slowly falling apart. This is what is happening to the Brick and Mortar Pro Shops......
One day you will walk into a bowling center and things will look like they did decades ago. The guy at the counter will tell that when the mechanic gets time he will drill your ball and give you a lesson.
It's all sad but true. So called 'bowlers' will willingly contribute to the destruction of bowling as we know it to save $10-$30 bucks. We can only hope that the manufacturers will wake up and stop the madness.
Edited on 3/27/2009 8:49 PM
Post by: qstick777 on March 27, 2009, 10:41:28 PM
One of the main problems is the increase in productivity of the manufacturers. They are able to produce more in a shorter amount of time.
The manufacturers have a lot of money invested in equipment. They don't make any money when the equipment is sitting there idle.
I've only been bowling since 2004, but I've heard that equipment is now much cheaper than it used to be. As the companies are able to produce more efficiently, they have passed on the savings.
The companies don't make money by building a product and letting it sit in a warehouse. Higher quantities at lower prices - you make money by moving volume.
You can try to blame the online shops for "killing" retail pro shops, but they are able to purchase the large quantities that the manufacturers are producing. Even if they are not buying directly from the manufacturers, they are getting them from the distributors. The distributors have a lot of money invested in inventory.
The bowling population is finicky and want to see new products - ever read the forums here and see all the "so, what's next" threads? They usually start popping up about 2 months after all the new releases.
So, you could even go so far as to say that WE are the reason for all of this. Stop buying all the new stuff and maybe they'll stop making it. Really, can you blame some of them for manipulating oil absorption (and coverstock longevity) so that balls die and we have to buy more?
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Post by: Buddy Christ on March 27, 2009, 10:46:22 PM
quote:
So, you could even go so far as to say that WE are the reason for all of this. Stop buying all the new stuff and maybe they'll stop making it. Really, can you blame some of them for manipulating oil absorption (and coverstock longevity) so that balls die and we have to buy more?
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Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
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"The Founding Fathers knew a government can't control the economy without controlling people. And they knew when a government sets out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose."
"Government is not the solution to our problems - government is the problem."
That's how everything is! It's called planned obsolescense. It's what keeps the cycle of consuming moving. If nothing were to break, there would be no reason for anything really to still be in production.
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Sean from Chicago
KILLWHITNEYDEAD
Viva La Marijuana!
Post by: Mike Austin on March 28, 2009, 12:04:42 AM
quote:
You can try to blame the online shops for "killing" retail pro shops, but they are able to purchase the large quantities that the manufacturers are producing. Even if they are not buying directly from the manufacturers, they are getting them from the distributors. The distributors have a lot of money invested in inventory.
The online shops don't purchase in large quantities, but they do move product. Most all of it is never seen by the online retailer. The problem is not really the etailers as much as it is the distributors. If the distributors sold the pro shops at the same price as etailers, then the brick and mortars would be able to try and compete on a closer to level playing field. The distributors, in their haste to move product, slashed prices to the etailers, but not to the shops.
over and over again...
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Post by: Atochabsh on March 28, 2009, 07:58:56 AM
For the new and new-er bowler the online prices are intoxicating. It makes them willing to wait two weeks to get their purchase and take on the risk of not getting what they expected. But most NEW bowlers wouldn't know what is a good ball or not. So they rely on the local pro shop(even though they don't know it yet) to drill that ball in a manner that at least makes it usable. I mean all round bowling balls are usable. But the dynamic balls of today have expectations built into them.
Most of these online buyers are one hit wonders. They don't buy multiple balls like many dedicated league bowlers or old school guys that like to stick with what they know. Only the pro shop has the ability to take a non league bowler, new bowler, sell them or drill them a ball and create a dedicated lover of the sport. So in some cases the online sellers are contributing to bowlers that are just out there once in a while to bowl because they are not building any reparte that might stimulate that person to become a more dedicated bowler.
Erin
Post by: Smash49 on March 28, 2009, 09:48:09 AM
Smash49
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Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: pin-chaser on March 28, 2009, 06:43:34 PM
If prices for bowling balls were "reasonable" to begin with, there would not be so much interest in saving 10 to 20 percent for all the added online aggrivation.
And who in the end is taking the risk? It used to be the proshop operator. If he miss drills the ball, the ball cracks during drilling, the ball has a defect, Now, you buy off line, all the proshop operator has to do is to get you to walk out the door. And for that he is being paid 25-40 for drilling and we are left to deal with any warranty issues.
The more we buy online, the more the cost of drilling to keep the doors open. The spiral can not stop now that it is started. I agree with bowling will become simply more of a passtime. There already is no integrity.
Post by: Steven on March 29, 2009, 05:24:29 PM
Post by: gojr1815 on March 30, 2009, 06:40:28 AM
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Why Jr Why
Post by: RyanRPS on March 30, 2009, 07:51:02 AM
Of course, for this to work all manufacturers and distributors need to be thinking along the same lines, as if company X put their online price at $X and company Y leaves the online retailer to sell at whatever price they want, a customer may just opt for the cheaper brand, regardless of which they would prefer on an even price footing.
I don think online shops serve a very good purpose for getting your hands on hard to find, discontunied, and old equipment.
Ryan
Post by: kjl456 on March 30, 2009, 09:24:03 AM
Post by: Mike Austin on March 30, 2009, 11:25:29 AM
quote:
I have a question - for both the pro shop operators and bowlers - How much is too much? If you take into account drilling fees (including whatever extras you use - grips(here the markup seems outrageous, in my area anyway shops charge $4-5 to replace one grip), thumb slug, etc.) how much extra is the pro shop entitled to - $10, $25, $50 - more? In my area the differentials are highly inconsistent - shop charges $160 for a Hy-Road drilled with grips, charges $38 to drill something else including grips and one can buy a Hy-Road on the internet for $120 shipped - no one in my area should buy a Hy-road on the internet - shop is making a couple of $ and adds all services alluded to above. Same analysis on Columbia Power Swing(different result) - he's charging $213 drilled with grips. You can do $133 internet, even less on ebay. $213 - $171 = looks like he's making $42. Is that "too much"? I'm curious.
It is for you, the consumer to decide what is "too much". Then again, $42 on one ball is not very much money in the big picture. Most shops aren't drilling 100 balls a month at that $42 profit point. If your operator does good work, has good knowledge, has a good location, then he very well may be able to command the higher price. If you feel the price is not justified by the service he provides, then you as a customer have the freedom to go to another pro shop.
How good is your operator? Can they even mark off the lines the same way twice, much less hit said lines? What is their knowledge of the game of bowling, the art of drilling? So many people think it's dead easy to ram three holes in a bowling ball. (Yes, I know it is not rocket science either) These same people cry wolf when they get two balls drilled and they are an 1/8th difference in span and "I drop my Hy Road, but I can't pry off my Maxx Zone".
There is a difference between a Pro Shop Professional and a ball driller. The driller pounds holes in balls, and probably not consistently well at that. Lots of guys can do that. A Pro takes care of his customers on so many levels. Fitting, drilling, surfaces, lane play, layouts, physical game, mental game, a guy/lady with experiences in all of these facets, just cannot be underestimated. There are truly not as many of these people as you think. These Pros rightfully deserve to command more money for the services they DO charge you for than mr. hole crammer. Many times they give much of theirselves away for the love of the game in advice, coaching, polishing, etc...
These ideas are lost on many, the higher average bowlers that know everything already. BUT, for the MAJORITY of bowlers, the 200 and under players, a good pro shop operator can be invaluable in advancing your game.
In the end, the pro shop industry is a business. You have to sell for more than you buy for. This "more" has to be enough to cover your fixed expenses too, rent, insurance, tools, salary(s), electric, phone, internet, so on.... NOBODY and I mean NOBODY is getting RICH in the pro shop industry. I don't know any that drive Escalades and where Tommy Hilfiger all the time. At least not by making their money legally. Most all of the ones that do appear to be really successful probably have a spouse that makes pretty good money also. I know that was the case for me too, I did well in my shop, I won't lie. I worked my ash off, but my wife made more than me easy and benefits.....
If you have a good pro shop, try and support them how you can. I will be the first to agree that times are tough. Even if you do continue to buy off the internet and take it in to the shop, throw him/her a coke or $10 once in awhile for jobs well done. Those little things are appreciated. That's a little love, and love of the game is what most operators are in the business for, specially the good ones.
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Post by: normy on March 30, 2009, 02:24:30 PM
The type of shop you describe Mike I would probably pay the extra money in but it just seems mythical to me.
Post by: 86camaroman on March 30, 2009, 02:42:14 PM
Post by: 86camaroman on March 30, 2009, 02:42:16 PM
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on March 30, 2009, 03:11:09 PM
quote:
Yes I agree mythical I have heard of such great proshops but I have not ever seen one out of all the shops around here in a 20 mile radius there is 4 and none of them have a clue about anything yes they can put holes in a ball ask them your pap and they will laugh and shoot you a number they dont even know how to find your pap and to lay a ball out based on your pap again yeah right every ball you buy they put the pin at 1oclock only way they know how too thats the reason I bought everything to drill my own stuff I have only been doing it for a year and I feel like I know a crap load more then the shops around here I am no professional shop like the mythical ones but bi golly I can lay a ball out using several techniques
I really think that's most of the problem right there. All of the bowling people want the bowler to support the local pro shops, but probably 80% of pro shops don't do what they're "supposed to do" for us.
I have no problem with my driller, because the stuff I get always feels the same, which at times in other shops has been a (huge) stretch. His prices are solid and very comparable to online pricing, plus if you're anywhere near a decent bowler, the ball will pay for itself anyways. Not all, but most.
For me that's the biggest things I look for at a shop, prices that aren't completely terrible, say $230 or up on anything, a guy that will talk to you and is helpful and nice, and someone that can repeat drillings.I think that if all "local pro shops" went the extra inch, and did all the small extras you so frequently hear about on this site, but never see, more people would go and buy directly from them, rather trying to save some money online. The problem I see is like others have mentioned, you walk in, tell them you're looking for a new ball, and most don't even ask what you're looking for, just point you in the direction of the $200 and up pieces.
Support your local shop, even if they don't support you? I don't think so. I'll save the extra $40-$50 when all he's going to do is put holes in it. Show me a shop that actually cares, and even when they're super busy will take time out to hit your ball with a 4000 grit pad, or to open up your thumb hole, then that is a business I can support.
On Edit: If you want my money, earn my money. The bowling industry is no different than anything else. I want customer service, if you don't give it, I'm not giving you my money. The end!
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Edited on 3/30/2009 3:13 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on March 30, 2009, 03:13:29 PM
Then where does a new bowler go to get fitted properly or a more experienced bowler goes to solve a fit problem? The person hired last week to man the desk and double as the “proshop†operator doesn’t know those things.
Those who have bowled long enough to establish their fit and/or have enough knowledge to layout a ball don’t need those guys much. But this is probably less than 5% of the bowling population.
Without the quality operator the game will not flourish but they are being driven out of the business.
Post by: Krakken on March 30, 2009, 03:22:11 PM
There are laws against what you are suggesting here. If manufacturers and distributors did this, we would lose in the long run because everyone would be in prison.[/quote]
Not true at all. PING currently sets the minimum price you can sell their products at. Otherwise they won't let you sell their merchandise. None of them are in jail.
Also the originator of the article says you cna't buy top of the line golf clubs any cheaper online? He isn't looking hard enough. You can easily save $100 on a driver and $100-$200 on a set of irons that you purchase online.
This is just the ebb and flow of capitalism. Right now everyone wants it cheap. It will probably drive some of the owners of the brick and mortar shops out of business. Then we will get tired of cheap and want quality, and personal service. When enough people want quality and personal service, the brick and mortar shops will make a strong comeback.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Post by: burly1 on March 30, 2009, 03:43:31 PM
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Patrick
Post by: Krakken on March 30, 2009, 04:18:10 PM
Callaway's newest iron release. $120 cheaper than in stores. Stores are going for $899. No tax online, and no shipping.
I didn't even try hard on that one. Put a little into it and I bet I can get them even cheaper. EBay especially.
Your Quote:
" Go try to buy brand new, no xxout's or blem Titlest Pro V1's any cheaper it can't be done. I am also talking about legit sources, that actually have accounts with these companies. Prices are exactly the same at both sources, Brick & Mortar shops and online shops, no discounts allowed. "
Now you are settign terms for where I can get it from? I can easily get a lot of the newest releases by a little work on the internet.
I will agree with you that I haven't yet found Titleist PRO V 1s much cheaper online, but I can get them $5 or so cheaper online, plus no sales tax. So that makes them about $10 cheaper where I am from.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Edited on 3/30/2009 4:18 PM
Edited on 3/30/2009 4:19 PM
Edited on 3/30/2009 4:22 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on March 30, 2009, 04:24:26 PM
Post by: Krakken on March 30, 2009, 04:30:06 PM
quote:
The ones I see at other sites for $899 include a 3 iron... this is just 4 thru wedge.
Good catch. I failed to read the whole thing in haste....lol
Try this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2009-CALLAWAY-X-FORGED-IRONS-3-PW-PROJECT-X-6-0_W0QQitemZ400040066297QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGolf_Clubs?hash=item400040066297&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
In the end do a lot of folks really care where they get stuff from? No, they care about what they pay for it. The above set is the same set you will buy for $899 in stores. Same quality, same manufacturer.
I buy my bowling equipment from an actual brick and mortar shop (Sports Plus Carmen Don) as I really see no real savings getting it online. (Maybe $10-$20 per ball) And if something goes wrong with it, I have to deal with the manufacturer myself. Not worth it in my opinion.
I am just saying that the folks that want it cheaper can and will get it that way.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Edited on 3/30/2009 4:31 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on March 30, 2009, 04:36:06 PM
And I know that cally, ping etc will pull merchandise from a seller if they sell below a specified level. That doesn't mean that many shops in an effort to make a decent profit might charge more.
But a bowling ball is more about fit than the ball itself.
Bowling needs that guy to fit you.
The best ball in the world with a lousy fit isn't any good. A k-mart ball with a good fit can be scored with.
Post by: jls on March 30, 2009, 04:37:35 PM
quote:
http://www.golfdiscount.com/products/callaway-x-forged-irons-2009
Callaway's newest iron release. $120 cheaper than in stores. Stores are going for $899. No tax online, and no shipping.
I didn't even try hard on that one. Put a little into it and I bet I can get them even cheaper. EBay especially.
Your Quote:
" Go try to buy brand new, no xxout's or blem Titlest Pro V1's any cheaper it can't be done. I am also talking about legit sources, that actually have accounts with these companies. Prices are exactly the same at both sources, Brick & Mortar shops and online shops, no discounts allowed. "
Now you are settign terms for where I can get it from? I can easily get a lot of the newest releases by a little work on the internet.
I will agree with you that I haven't yet found Titleist PRO V 1s much cheaper online, but I can get them $5 or so cheaper online, plus no sales tax. So that makes them about $10 cheaper where I am from.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Edited on 3/30/2009 4:18 PM
Edited on 3/30/2009 4:19 PM
Edited on 3/30/2009 4:22 PM
Where they the new Titleist Pro V1 for $45.95, or last years model for $39.95?
And I do believe there is a shipping charge if you just bought 1 dozen balls.
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jls
Post by: Kid Jete on March 30, 2009, 04:38:34 PM
Post by: Kid Jete on March 30, 2009, 04:43:13 PM
Post by: jls on March 30, 2009, 05:15:30 PM
quote:
And to whoever started the golf dicussion... most B and M golf shops already went through the online issues and most just found other ways to make money, especially the green grass account. Yeah there are still large golf retailers like golf galaxy but they also sell online. If you are going to compare golf to bowling you really can only use the golf pro shops that are considered green grass accounts. When you look at those MOST of them stopped carrying equipment a long time ago and just sell apparrel and basic stuff like tees and balls. I know this because I was one of them. We just have a lot of other ways to make money that the bowling industry lacks.
In my area, we have a Golf Galaxy, two Dick's, and a Sports Authority. And we also have a small pro shop located at a driving range.
Now his shop is extremely small compared to the others, yet his prices are the same!!!
He stocks all the major brands. On any given day, his price will match any of the big boys prices.
Now what you said about green grass pro shops is true, most no longer sell clubs. But why? If this small pro shop can buy Ping or Taylor and sell them for the same price as the big boys, then why can't the pro shops at the golf course do the same.
Titleist balls sell for $45.95. Yet some golf course pro shops try to sell them for $58.00
Now I know what the cost is on some of these golf balls. And at $45.95, these shops are making a profit.
It's not like the old days when pro line golf balls cost the shops $9.25-$9.75 a dozen, yet were selling for $11.00 at retail!!!!
Pro shops today can make a nice profit on pro line balls.
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jls
Post by: RyanRPS on March 30, 2009, 05:31:03 PM
quote:quote:
Simple solution as I see it - Manufacturers and Distributors selling to online stores can stipulate what minimum price the product has to be sold for, and put it in line with what a bowler would buy it for undrilled from their local proshop. I guess if the average drilling fee is around $50, and a ball retails in a proshop for $200, then a minimum online price of $150 should be put on the ball so that it makes no financial difference to buy online...
Of course, for this to work all manufacturers and distributors need to be thinking along the same lines, as if company X put their online price at $X and company Y leaves the online retailer to sell at whatever price they want, a customer may just opt for the cheaper brand, regardless of which they would prefer on an even price footing.
I don think online shops serve a very good purpose for getting your hands on hard to find, discontunied, and old equipment.
Ryan
There are laws against what you are suggesting here. If manufacturers and distributors did this, we would lose in the long run because everyone would be in prison.
As someone else mentioned, how is it illegal? Are you thinking I mean "price fixing" and agreeing prices with other manufactures? That is not what I mean.
I Simply mean you tell the online retailer "please do not sell this for under $150 after shipping", and if they refuse, then do not sell it to them. It is easy to check what they are selling them for so you can check up on them.
If all manufacturers stuck to this then there would be no benifit to buying online unless the ball was not available locally.
Ryan
Post by: Krakken on March 30, 2009, 05:54:45 PM
Where they the new Titleist Pro V1 for $45.95, or last years model for $39.95?
And I do believe there is a shipping charge if you just bought 1 dozen balls.
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jls[/quote]
Last year's PRO V ones were on sale at Dick's for $39.99 around christmas. They sold out in a few days here. And according to someone I know that works at Callaway, Titleist had to pull the rest out due to a lawsuit that they won vs Titleist for copyright infringement for the PRO V1.
With a little searching I am sure you can get the Pro V1 for less than in stores. I don't know what they are going for in stores. Have you tried Ebay?
And at least 2 of the sites I shop on won't charge shipping for even 1 dozen balls.
You definitely can do well by doing a little shopping online.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Post by: Walking E on March 30, 2009, 06:16:43 PM
quote:
Kraken,
Timtheputterman is not a good example, apples and oranges. I am sure Timtheputterman does not have an account with Callaway, and therefore they have no control over him. Who knows where these clubs came from. Staffers get clubs and sell them to guys like this. There also have been a fair share of fakes sold on E-Bay made in Asia and look exactly the same, not saying this is the case with timtheputterman, but E-Bay is not where I would buy my NEW golf clubs for the reasons above. This not a good example.
I am a memeber of a country club. Titlest golf balls are in the 50+ dollar range and they charge more money as they need make a higher profit margin to be able to have qualified assistant pros that all the members benefit from, we know this and support them. But I could go down to Golf Galaxy and pay 45.99 in a Brick & Mortar Golf Shop, or I could go to Golf Galaxy online and guess what, I will still pay 45.99. Point being, can't save money online with these golf balls, as they do not use their Internet site to discount their product line, plain and simple.
Here is another good example. Taylormade just came out with a new Driver the R9. Price at Golf Galaxy brick and mortar shop 399.99, price at their online site 399.99.
Another huge internet site www.TGW.com has the R9 driver for 399.99 with a statement that says: Our Price: $399.99 Discounts cannot be applied to this product. And to use your own example www.golfdiscount.com has the Taylormade R9 for 399.99 with the same statement Discounts cannot be applied to this product.
I think I made my point here. I cannot save any money on this driver by shopping online from a reputable source. A reputable source is someone that has an account with the manufacturer and is controlled by the industry.
Edited on 3/30/2009 6:04 PM
Is there a difference in tax collected in an example like this? For instance, I would assume that the B&M shop would collect a sales tax, whereas many internet sites do not. If that was the case in this example, then that would result in a $30-$40 difference between ordering online vs. a B&M shop.
Don't get me wrong - back when I was actively bowling, I NEVER purchased a bowling ball online. I am a strong believer in supporting the local pro shops, even if it costs me more.
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Official Member of the BrunsTrackColumStormHammEboRotoBuzzAMF Nation!
Also a member of ROB STONE NATION
Post by: 1MechEng on March 30, 2009, 07:06:36 PM
Why haven't the local B&M pro shops taken the jump to try to sell online also and raise their volumes to help increase their profit margins?!
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.
Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member
Post by: JessN16 on March 30, 2009, 07:14:58 PM
1) General overall poor attitude.
2) Thinking that I'm a dumb*ss about layouts and/or my own game.
3) Pushing certain gear over others because they're a "Brand X shop," not because it is or isn't the right gear for me.
4) Getting pissed off when I offer suggestions or talk about what I've found works for me or what doesn't. (example: Had a driller get very huffed at me for objecting to his suggestion of a pin-down, 2.5-inch drilling on an aggressive ball. Told me that's what I needed, period.)
5) More attention to detail in their craft. Hitting the chalk lines consistently would be a good start.
6) Trying to drill their customers' balls the way they drill their own (i.e., stretched span vs. relaxed or vice versa, using their layout for me and ignoring my PAP, etc.).
As I said, this doesn't describe a majority of shops. But it does describe enough of them for me to consider it statistically significant. For some reason, bowling pro shops and golf club fitting shops seem to draw an inordinate amount of guys that have an incredible amount of arrogance coupled with the social skills of a fruit bat.
I can come here and ask questions and discuss issues with reasonable people, and gain knowledge. But how many league bowlers, even high-level ones, utilize this resource? Not many. A lot of them trust their drillers inherently and may not be getting the full picture.
Jess
Post by: Krakken on March 30, 2009, 07:27:39 PM
quote:
Kraken,
Timtheputterman is not a good example, apples and oranges. I am sure Timtheputterman does not have an account with Callaway, and therefore they have no control over him. Who knows where these clubs came from. Staffers get clubs and sell them to guys like this. There also have been a fair share of fakes sold on E-Bay made in Asia and look exactly the same, not saying this is the case with timtheputterman, but E-Bay is not where I would buy my NEW golf clubs for the reasons above. This not a good example.
I am a memeber of a country club. Titlest golf balls are in the 50+ dollar range and they charge more money as they need make a higher profit margin to be able to have qualified assistant pros that all the members benefit from, we know this and support them. But I could go down to Golf Galaxy and pay 45.99 in a Brick & Mortar Golf Shop, or I could go to Golf Galaxy online and guess what, I will still pay 45.99. Point being, can't save money online with these golf balls, as they do not use their Internet site to discount their product line, plain and simple.
Here is another good example. Taylormade just came out with a new Driver the R9. Price at Golf Galaxy brick and mortar shop 399.99, price at their online site 399.99.
Another huge internet site www.TGW.com has the R9 driver for 399.99 with a statement that says: Our Price: $399.99 Discounts cannot be applied to this product. And to use your own example www.golfdiscount.com has the Taylormade R9 for 399.99 with the same statement Discounts cannot be applied to this product.
I think I made my point here. I cannot save any money on this driver by shopping online from a reputable source. A reputable source is someone that has an account with the manufacturer and is controlled by the industry.
Edited on 3/30/2009 6:04 PM
You didn't make a point. You are trying to set limits on who I can get it from to fit your argument. It's like saying I can only buy on THursdays from stores that end in the letter V.
Bottomline is internet stores are good for the consumer. I can go out and get the same R9 driver for $359 online. No tax, no shipping. That makes it almost $70 cheaper.
They are the same clubs, authentic from Taylormade or Callaway (though you are taking a small chance on Ebay) and they are much cheaper. No one really cares if they are an "Authorized retailer" They care that they are good quality clubs at a better price.
Of course Golf Galaxy and Golfgalaxy.com are going to sell it for the same price. Why would they compete against themselves?
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Post by: BW on March 30, 2009, 07:59:04 PM
quote:quote:
Kraken,
Timtheputterman is not a good example, apples and oranges. I am sure Timtheputterman does not have an account with Callaway, and therefore they have no control over him. Who knows where these clubs came from. Staffers get clubs and sell them to guys like this. There also have been a fair share of fakes sold on E-Bay made in Asia and look exactly the same, not saying this is the case with timtheputterman, but E-Bay is not where I would buy my NEW golf clubs for the reasons above. This not a good example.
I am a memeber of a country club. Titlest golf balls are in the 50+ dollar range and they charge more money as they need make a higher profit margin to be able to have qualified assistant pros that all the members benefit from, we know this and support them. But I could go down to Golf Galaxy and pay 45.99 in a Brick & Mortar Golf Shop, or I could go to Golf Galaxy online and guess what, I will still pay 45.99. Point being, can't save money online with these golf balls, as they do not use their Internet site to discount their product line, plain and simple.
Here is another good example. Taylormade just came out with a new Driver the R9. Price at Golf Galaxy brick and mortar shop 399.99, price at their online site 399.99.
Another huge internet site www.TGW.com has the R9 driver for 399.99 with a statement that says: Our Price: $399.99 Discounts cannot be applied to this product. And to use your own example www.golfdiscount.com has the Taylormade R9 for 399.99 with the same statement Discounts cannot be applied to this product.
I think I made my point here. I cannot save any money on this driver by shopping online from a reputable source. A reputable source is someone that has an account with the manufacturer and is controlled by the industry.
Edited on 3/30/2009 6:04 PM
You didn't make a point. You are trying to set limits on who I can get it from to fit your argument. It's like saying I can only buy on THursdays from stores that end in the letter V.
Bottomline is internet stores are good for the consumer. I can go out and get the same R9 driver for $359 online. No tax, no shipping. That makes it almost $70 cheaper.
They are the same clubs, authentic from Taylormade or Callaway (though you are taking a small chance on Ebay) and they are much cheaper. No one really cares if they are an "Authorized retailer" They care that they are good quality clubs at a better price.
Of course Golf Galaxy and Golfgalaxy.com are going to sell it for the same price. Why would they compete against themselves?
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
The difference between $399 and $359 is only 10%. No pro shop in the country would be complaing about internet discounters selling $200 balls for $180.
We complain because consumers buying one ball can buy nearly as cheaply as a pro shop buying 1000 balls per year. I have no problem if a big internet site can buy balls cheaper than I do. After all, they buy a much higher volume than I do. By the same token, I should be able to by them much cheaper than the general public.
Post by: Krakken on March 30, 2009, 08:06:33 PM
Ebay has thousands of businesses that sell a ton of merchandise to the public. Just because they don't have accounts with major manufacturers doesn't mean they don't count. You are trying to narrow your focus to try to make it apples to apples.
Even golf discount.com has them cheaper than you can get them in the stores. Legitimate business. Not some shady off the truck deal.
Your original point was that you said golf helps the brick and mortar shops by setting a minimum price, and they may do that to the customers that have major accounts with them. That doesn't mean that they have cut off the internet based business from taking a portion of the brick and mortar business. I very rarely buy golf supplies from a store. I always buy on the internet because I am getting the same clubs much cheaper than I can get them online. Even after I get them fitted for me.
Buying bowling balls online is the same. You can get it cheaper online, but after you pay your driller $60-$80 to drill it and put slugs in it how much are you saving?
That is the way for the brick and mortar shops to help themselves. Charge full price to drill it and you will eliminate the difference in price.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Post by: normy on March 30, 2009, 08:19:59 PM
I don't know the difference in price on bowling balls, but you have to at least get them as cheap as we do online. So why are they marked up over a hundred dollars? I understand the need to make money I do, but that seems excessive.
Post by: Krakken on March 30, 2009, 08:46:26 PM
$35 for drilling, $8-$10 for inserts $10-$12 for thumbslug is about the norm here.
That is in the $60 range.
I am not about cheap, I am about getting he best value for my money.
If I can pay $100 less for the same clubs, why would I want to throw the extra $100 away?
Maybe you have that kind of money, but most here don't.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Post by: 1MechEng on March 30, 2009, 10:31:51 PM
quote:
Here is a "Saying" we have hanging in our Proshop: "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after sweetness of cheap price is forgotten"
Have had this hanging in our proshops for over 25 years.
This is a good saying, and it speaks well to your philosophy of content and quality over price and quantity. To you, the value of the pro shop you run is in the service and commitment to the customer. No one is saying that philosophy is not admirable nor undesirable.
The question is ... with a down economy right now, how are you going to convince the normal bowler that the values you espouse are more important than the conditioned response where price is the most important aspect of the purchase? With money in most households being tight, how do you justify the extra cost in a more tangible fashion?
More to the point ... in a free market, how do you convince (sway, change the opinion of) your potential customers to believe in your side of the argument that quality and service trumps low prices? What can you do to reach out to the customer and better advertise this "advantage"?
Remember that value is a perceived quality by both the seller and the buyer in economics, and the perceptions are often not the same! You need to raise the perceived quality of your product/service to adequately justify the extra cost to the customer to make it seem like they are getting the deal.
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.
Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member
Edited on 3/30/2009 10:36 PM
Post by: Krakken on March 31, 2009, 07:15:55 AM
quote:
Kraken,
Kraken Quote says it all: WE will have to agree to disagree. You think only authorized retailers should be allowed to sell products.
Well, Yeah!!!!!! You obviously have never been in business.
Here is a "Saying" we have hanging in our Proshop: "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after sweetness of cheap price is forgotten"
Have had this hanging in our proshops for over 25 years.
Not a bad quote, and some have been burned by it.
Here is my issue with Manufacturers setting terms on who can sell what and for what price. That sure isn't capitalism.
How would you like being told where you can buy your car? Or for how much?
Same with the house?
Why stop with golf clubs and bowling balls?
Dan's quote:
"Remember that value is a perceived quality by both the seller and the buyer in economics, and the perceptions are often not the same! You need to raise the perceived quality of your product/service to adequately justify the extra cost to the customer to make it seem like they are getting the deal."
could not agree more.
Part of your job as a pro shop operator is to do that. Don't lean on Manufacturers to tell me I have to buy from your shop or another shop. Do a better job of selling me on your product and services and most likely we will buy from you.
I do buy from an actual shop because I know the value I get from him.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Edited on 3/31/2009 7:19 AM
Post by: 86camaroman on March 31, 2009, 07:45:32 AM
Post by: pin-chaser on March 31, 2009, 09:13:44 AM
My argument is smiply that bowling balls cost too much... period. If bowling balls only cost $50 to buy from the manufacturer then the profit margins are not as great and the potential savings from buying online vs. brick and morter shops are not as great.
I would like to see a break down on why bowling balls cost so much. I know, R&D... lol... that relates to 1 guy with an engineering degree sitting behind a CAD program as a full time job developing cores and another degreed person to deal with coverstocks... so you got $200k invested in personell overhead. They way manufactures reused cores and covers and mix and match I just cant believe the cost of R&D can cost more than $10 per ball and materials and manufacturing cant cost more than 20 per ball. Combined with a profit margin of 100% that would be around $60 for the top of the line balls and yet they say suggested retail is +$200... you have got to be kidding me.
I think that if bowling is to reach the masses like it did once (in its hay days) it needs to make it affordable to all. This never struck me before last nite.. I walked into my monday nite league and saw display on the concorse from the proshop which consisted of: A maxium bowling ball, a pair of shoes and a single bowling bag for $129.99. I dont think that this entry level point is going to be affordable to bring new bowlers into the sport. As well, none of this stuff is going to support the current bowlers (unless they need a spare ball and give away the bag and shoes).
BowlingBallMall,
I live in a city where I believe I have as much knowledge about the game, layouts, ball reaction, covers, cores and experience (both bowling and running a proshop) than anyone in the business. I do believe that I am also not the typical bowler. That being the case, I have a complete proshop in my garage not for profit but for me and my children. HOWEVER, if I beleived that I or my kids would benifit from the experience and knowledge from any brick and morter shop within a 5 hour drive I would certianly use them. In fact, I want to take both my son and myself to a "GREAT" shop where we can get the "next" level of knowledge and experience (as we have already been to Kegel a couple times). It is just a matter of deciding where to go.
I do agree with your statements, but my problem is that there is no rating system for proshops that is valid. Being a member of IPBSIA (sorry)... does not guarentee that the proshop is better or have more knowledge just as being a bronze, silver or gold certified coach suggests that they can teach bowling. So how does someone know that a shop is good? I am willing to pay more, pay for the time of the operator but not if it is not going to benifit me. Its a risk and the proshop has the advantage and FAR TO MANY over evaluate themselves and have a slick sales pitch (like a used car dealer). My son is awesome and I would pay $5000 for a week of intense coaching with the right person dedicated to taking him to the next level. NOTICE I SAID "DEDICATED"... because I have never seen any proshop operator "dedicated" to actually making someone improve.
If i ventured a guess, I would suggest that over 75% of proshops are in the business of selling balls and getting the customers out the door. Then another 20% go the extra mile of actually taking some time with customers on the lane and talking with them to try to match up balls, layouts and grips... that comprises 95%. The remaining 5% are the shops that I would pay for and happily pay to support. Where are they and how do I know?
Post by: Carlos Colon on March 31, 2009, 09:36:51 AM
Post by: Atochabsh on March 31, 2009, 12:55:18 PM
quote:
Also doesn't help that he charges sales tax if I pay by credit card!
Are there really states in this country that only charge state sales tax if you use a credit card? I had no idea.
There's nothing the pro shops can do about state sales tax (if applicable in their state). They have to pay it or be fined. Ultimatesly not paying the sales tax will closed the doors of the pro shop for good. So don't make sales tax the pro shop's fault. It isn't. We are just the middle man where that goes. We don't get a cut.
Erin
Post by: Mike Austin on March 31, 2009, 02:11:20 PM
quote:
If i ventured a guess, I would suggest that over 75% of proshops are in the business of selling balls and getting the customers out the door. Then another 20% go the extra mile of actually taking some time with customers on the lane and talking with them to try to match up balls, layouts and grips... that comprises 95%. The remaining 5% are the shops that I would pay for and happily pay to support. Where are they and how do I know?
Why would you eliminate the 20% of good shops. You admit they go the extra mile, etc... what else do you want? (stolen from jls) You want a car wash and a happy ending too?
Where are they? All over the place, but possibly not where you live, unfortunately. How do you know, that is something I have been wanting to solve also. Word of mouth of people you trust is usually the best way to find out.
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Post by: Mike Austin on March 31, 2009, 02:14:07 PM
quote:
On the flip side, here's what I'd like to see pro shops work on as far as improving customer service, because not all of them are angels (note: I would say the majority are very professional, but anywhere between 25-40 percent of shops I've visited in the last five years suffer from one or more of the following problems):
1) General overall poor attitude.
2) Thinking that I'm a dumb*ss about layouts and/or my own game.
3) Pushing certain gear over others because they're a "Brand X shop," not because it is or isn't the right gear for me.
4) Getting pissed off when I offer suggestions or talk about what I've found works for me or what doesn't. (example: Had a driller get very huffed at me for objecting to his suggestion of a pin-down, 2.5-inch drilling on an aggressive ball. Told me that's what I needed, period.)
5) More attention to detail in their craft. Hitting the chalk lines consistently would be a good start.
6) Trying to drill their customers' balls the way they drill their own (i.e., stretched span vs. relaxed or vice versa, using their layout for me and ignoring my PAP, etc.).
As I said, this doesn't describe a majority of shops. But it does describe enough of them for me to consider it statistically significant. For some reason, bowling pro shops and golf club fitting shops seem to draw an inordinate amount of guys that have an incredible amount of arrogance coupled with the social skills of a fruit bat.
I can come here and ask questions and discuss issues with reasonable people, and gain knowledge. But how many league bowlers, even high-level ones, utilize this resource? Not many. A lot of them trust their drillers inherently and may not be getting the full picture.
Jess
Unfortunately, I agree with you Jess and feel this is a problem in the industry. I think this is why I, and others stress taking care of your pro shop guy if he is one of the good ones. They can be few and far between. The points Pat is making is going to have the good ones fewer and farther.
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT