Post by: Xcessive_Evil on December 09, 2009, 02:07:52 AM
I like using pin-up on broken down conditions or shorter conditions since it allows me to play outside since pin-ups respond later and more aggressive at the breakpoint.
Anyone else the same way?
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http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Uroboros will be released into the atmosphere, ensuring...complete...global...saturation.
Post by: themagician on December 09, 2009, 10:14:35 AM
I tend to prefer pin up anymore but everyone matches up differently.
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BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on December 09, 2009, 10:26:38 AM
However, lower sums for higher volumes and higher sums for lower oil. Is there something wrong here? Or am I just not reading it right?
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http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Uroboros will be released into the atmosphere, ensuring...complete...global...saturation.
Post by: stopncrank on December 09, 2009, 10:33:13 AM
This ball is flat out a BEAST, i just cant see myself throwing anything stronger right now. Im already getting crazy angles as it is, but the Mutant Cell is interesting!
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on December 09, 2009, 10:40:28 AM
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http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Uroboros will be released into the atmosphere, ensuring...complete...global...saturation.
Post by: TBS1 on December 09, 2009, 10:42:32 AM
Hope this helps,
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James McCarter
Co-Owner/Operator
The Bowlers Solution INC
www.bowlerssolution.com
Post by: stopncrank on December 09, 2009, 10:46:19 AM
Notice the drill pattern he has on the ball. Jimmy and i grew up bowling together and he and i have similar styles. He is finding that he has to do the same as i and actually shy away from drillings that used to work for him because of the stronger balls.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....
Post by: icewall on December 09, 2009, 10:51:51 AM
for me i have 1.5 degrees of tilt (a high track) which causes my equipment to roll strong. while my brother has high tilt and needs a ball to pick up for him on the heavy stuff.
basically when it comes to the dual angle layouts i see it like this.
lower angles equal quicker transition
first angle : how quickly the ball gets from skid to hook
pin : how much friction the core will help generate
last angle: how quickly the ball gets from hook to roll
and of course the first angle only applies to asymmetrical cores. the more tilt you have the lower angle you should use (in general) *for example: if you have high tilt you want your ball to "face up" and get from skid to hook quickly because high tilt makes the ball naturally go long. (less ball surface is touching the lane!)*
so if you were to use lower angle sums. it is going to make the ball go from skid - hook - and roll FASTER then large angle sums. so you wouldnt want a your ball to transition slowly on heavy oil would you? of course not!
so therefore: people who need their ball to transition quickly will want lower angle sums
such as:
speed dominant players
high tilt
**watch bowlingball.com''''s videos. john congdon has higher tilt and always has smaller first angles.** then larger still is brian halstroms who tracks a little higher, then tony ruocco who tracks the highest and uses the largest first angles.
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tournament average: 219
tweener
medium revs
medium speed
currently throwing
rotogrip rogue cell
lanemasters black pearl
storm t-road pearl
visionary ogre ss, gladiator solid
Edited on 12/9/2009 11:54 AM
Edited on 12/9/2009 11:56 AM
Post by: stopncrank on December 09, 2009, 10:57:31 AM
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on December 09, 2009, 11:09:37 AM
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Edited on 12/9/2009 12:11 PM
Post by: cmurder300 on December 09, 2009, 11:23:37 AM
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UAW FOR LIFE
www.infinitevisionbowling.com
Post by: icewall on December 09, 2009, 11:29:19 AM
I just figured this stuff out about a week ago and put it into my own words and now it really makes sense to me.
and YES just about every system has been the same.
I like the dual angle system, hard to understand at first but much more detailed and custom "fit" if you ask me.
but the truth is most really good drillers know where to place your mass bias and pin to keep you in the zone that you should be in anyway.
quote:
Thanks ice, it makes more sense. My pin-ups usually have drilling angles around 50-70, generally higher than my pin-down equipment. I have some test balls around I need to mess with a bit.
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Edited on 12/9/2009 12:11 PM
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tournament average: 219
tweener
medium revs
medium speed
currently throwing
rotogrip rogue cell
lanemasters black pearl
storm t-road pearl
visionary ogre ss, gladiator solid
Post by: icewall on December 09, 2009, 11:33:48 AM
lets say for arguments sake you have two identical bowling balls.
bowler has a PAP of 4" straight over
1 ball is drilled with the pin in the center of grip whcih makes it a 4" pin to pap drill
*90 degree second angle*
ball 2 is drilled pin WAY up but still 4" from pap
*20 degree second angle*
yes the 4" pin to pap will determine IN GENERAL the amount of friction the ball will see. but by closing up the angle you not only are moving the pin and changing the final rg, BUT you ARE increasing the differential making the ball flare MORE on the backend of the lane.
quote:
I don't really want to start an argument here or high jack the thread,but the idea of pin up or down IMO is a bunch of hype, the distance from your pap is what really matters,especially using Mo's dual angle techinique,then the drill and breakpoint angles. The closer the pin to your pap,the early it rolls and the farther the pin from your pap the longer it goes, plain and simple!!!
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UAW FOR LIFE
www.infinitevisionbowling.com
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tournament average: 219
tweener
medium revs
medium speed
currently throwing
rotogrip rogue cell
lanemasters black pearl
storm t-road pearl
visionary ogre ss, gladiator solid
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on December 09, 2009, 12:31:55 PM
Thank you all for your inputs.
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Post by: n00dlejester on December 09, 2009, 12:46:08 PM
On shorter patterns, I use a RICO ball with some surface so I can calm down the backends and have a more controllable look. If this doesn't work, I use a pin-down ball with a slight shine. I find higher pins on these patterns create a ton of over/under for my game.
On longer patterns, I use both pin-up or pin-down balls. But what I look for is angle in the back part of the lane. I have very little hook compared to most, and for me I need to create entry angle anyway possible, so for me I use pin up with surface or pin under but like, 5" to my PAP.
Mind you this is all for FRESH patterns. How/when they break down will determine what I use next.
On a THS, I use shiney stuff that goes long and finishes strong
One thing I've found lately that I take coverstock into consideration more than "how long will this ball go before hook." If one ball is just giving me a bad reaction and adjustments left/right aren't working at all, I shell up or shell down. And this has saved me so many headaches recently. It's really all about lane surface and coverstock surface for me.
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Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on December 09, 2009, 12:58:45 PM
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Post by: J_w73 on December 09, 2009, 01:34:38 PM
I had some pretty good success as long as I kept the speed consistent..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 12/9/2009 4:18 PM
Post by: icewall on December 09, 2009, 03:15:08 PM
quote:
I tried the RICO thing, and it really didn't work for me-but then again, this was about 3 years ago. In my leagues this year, there has definitely been a bit longer and heavier, so I've needed to make surface adjustments.
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
yeah the rico layout isnt really a layout in my opinion because the reaction you get is completely dependent on your PAP. for me its more then 5 1/2" from my pap but the hole down helps to create flare. oddly enough i can get a pretty strong reaction from that "layout".
but i bet the rico works better for people with a pap that would put the pin in a stronger flaring position... maybe 4 1/2". probably a really mean drilling then!
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tournament average: 219
tweener
medium revs
medium speed
currently throwing
rotogrip rogue cell
lanemasters black pearl
storm t-road pearl
visionary ogre ss, gladiator solid
Post by: insidedrive on December 09, 2009, 03:57:49 PM
Pin down and pin up mean nothing, it all comes down to your PAP and how far you put the pin from the pap with relation to the angles you create on the ball.
For example, I am a very high track tweener, I'm 5 1/2 over by 1 up on my PAP. If I ever drill a ball with the pin below the fingers it is greatly increasing my angle to val thus decreasing my motion downlane. So much in fact that it defeats the original purpose of a "pin under" drill. These types of drillings for me go very very long with little to no backend. IE a burnt second shift for house shot ball.
Pros and others talk about pin under and over because they have similar PAPs 4 inches or less over and 1/2 inch or more down. This is a very different track from what someone like me would throw and therefore their idea of pin over/under is greatly different from what matches up for my game.
A low track bowler's equivalent of a pin down drill for me would be pin directly above the fingers.
A low track bowler's equivalent of a pin up drill for me would be the pin 1.5+ inches above the fingers.
Always always ALWAYS measure you drillings based on your PAP or even your Track.
My best ball for Shark is a Rogue Cell with the pin 2 inches above the ring finger and 1/4 inch right. That is quite the opposite of what others would call a proper "pin down" long oil drill. But thats because it's what works for my game.
Hope this helps.
Post by: J_w73 on December 09, 2009, 04:17:25 PM
quote:
I don''t really want to start an argument here or high jack the thread,but the idea of pin up or down IMO is a bunch of hype, the distance from your pap is what really matters,especially using Mo''s dual angle techinique,then the drill and breakpoint angles. The closer the pin to your pap,the early it rolls and the farther the pin from your pap the longer it goes, plain and simple!!!
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UAW FOR LIFE
www.infinitevisionbowling.com
yes.. pin to pap is the first and primary influence.. but a 5 1/2 pin to pap ball with the pin in center grip vs a 5 1/2 pin to pap with the pin close to the VAL is a night and day reaction... ball without holes and just layed out and thrown on throwbot.. no difference.. but once you put holes in the ball it does make a difference.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 12/9/2009 5:19 PM
Post by: Jay on December 09, 2009, 05:32:33 PM
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on December 10, 2009, 08:56:54 AM
On the 42', I got lined up pretty quick with the Kinetic Energy, and as soon it got to the breakpoint, it revved up fast and figuretively jumped into the pocket. The Sting labored a bit, as if it was unsure if it wanted to move or not.
The 38' was a complete reversal. When the Sting hit the bp, it wasn't all jumpy and made its way to the pocket smoothly. The Kinetic Energy was alot of over/under and just flat out erratic.
So, thanks to all that provided their opinions. It helped quite a bit.
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/