Author Topic: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard? (Read 24173 times)

maxlover · « **on:** March 02, 2012, 04:33:14 PM »

I have on many occasions seen pro shops drill a new ball for a new customer and apparently don't know what the customer's PAP is. Is there some kind of standard PAP they use when its not known and if so what is that standard? Anybody know the answer?

imholte08 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 02, 2012, 04:37:24 PM »

That is called "Using the Force" at my local shop. Usually occurs when someone tells them to drill a ball certain way without worrying about factors like this. Don't think there could be a standard, just all guess work. If a person spins the crap out of the ball, usually short PAP distance so it's okay to use pins left of the center of grip for them. If a person has a little tilt and no axis rotation, more than likely they have a really long PAP distance. Just guessing until they take the time to hit the lanes. More than likely the shops that constantly don't know the PAP use the same layouts for everyone.

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2012, 05:47:20 PM »

There is a "Generic" PAP that was used it's in some of the older drill sheet and books. That they said to use for bowler's with unknown PAPs.

Heres from a Track Sheet

Basic Drilling Instructions

The basic layouts are simplified for a bowler with an unknown positive axis point (PAP).

All diagrams are based on a PAP of 5” over and .5” up.

and a old AMF manual had layouts for a unknown PAP. Like this:

For Maximum Hook and Backend Drilling.

Place pin at 12:00 in relation to CG. Place CG on midline 2" from center of grip. Place balance hole 4 1/2" from center of grip on midline.

Aloarjr810
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Click For My Grip

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2012, 12:50:29 AM »

I recall some of the older Ebonite drilling instructions telling you that if you didn't know the person's PAP, to place the Pin under RF and CG out.

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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

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dizzyfugu · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2012, 10:02:47 AM »

A generic layout that works for almost any (unknown) PAP and also ball with a synmmetrical layout is a label setup - very old school, but it has its uses, esp. for beginners. Put the CG in the grip center and shift it 0.5" towards the positive side, and the pin at a 1:30 position (about 45° towards positive side), wherever it ends up through the pin distance. Yields a smooth arc, and with a long pin also a quiet big hook, with mid lane emphasis.

Great for low rev players - and a no-brainer for the pro shop. Just not recommended for stronmg MB cores, because the PSA can end up in the track, and cause backwards flare for high trackers.

DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

Russell · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2012, 10:53:26 AM »

+1

There is no "generic PAP", because a layout doesn't matter if you don't know their tilt and ball roll. If you try to get cute and do a 5.5" pin above the fingers...and they track over their fingers you just drilled them a nice spare ball. You keep the pin out of harms way (just outside of the grip), and above the fingers if possible. This gives the core some dynamics and will give them feedback if they do the right things.

If someone is a regular bowler and has no time to get a PAP, I don't have time to drill their equipment. I'm not putting my reputation in someone's ball that I am drilling blind. It would be like a doctor writing a prescription for some symptoms you describe without checking you out....doesn't work.

dizzyfugu wrote on 3/5/2012 9:02 AM:A generic layout that works for almost any (unknown) PAP and also ball with a synmmetrical layout is a label setup - very old school, but it has its uses, esp. for beginners. Put the CG in the grip center and shift it 0.5" towards the positive side, and the pin at a 1:30 position (about 45° towards positive side), wherever it ends up through the pin distance. Yields a smooth arc, and with a long pin also a quiet big hook, with mid lane emphasis.

Great for low rev players - and a no-brainer for the pro shop. Just not recommended for stronmg MB cores, because the PSA can end up in the track, and cause backwards flare for high trackers.

DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

HAMBONE · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2012, 11:29:22 AM »

Just an honest question. If a bowler came in not knowing his PAP, why would you not have him throw a few

and help him figure this out? It seems to me that if you could give this bowler, ball reactions that fit HIM,

you would have a loyal customer for life.

Drop and give me 10

Russell · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2012, 12:04:52 PM »

Good question...guess I didn't word that well. I always watch someone bowl and get a PAP for myself before bowling. Even if they tell me their PAP I want to see it myself before putting lines on a ball. I mean if someone tries to rush it and say "Here's where I track, I don't have time to bowl". I would try to reschedule for a time when they have a few minutes to bowl and let me take measurements.

I've had people tell me their PAP is 5 and 1/4" over and it ended up being more like 6" over....always need to check it myself.

HAMBONE wrote on 3/5/2012 10:29 AM:Just an honest question. If a bowler came in not knowing his PAP, why would you not have him throw a few

and help him figure this out? It seems to me that if you could give this bowler, ball reactions that fit HIM,

you would have a loyal customer for life.

Drop and give me 10

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Strapper_Squared · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2012, 01:32:50 PM »

Guy in my league won a ball (wicked siege) through raffle. The shop obviously didn't know his style and didn't care to find out. They drilled with pin exactly between fingers, just above and mb just under/left of thumb... Made the cg fall exactly on the grip line.

He throws righty, very high track, and low rotation angle... Low revs. The ball does nothing for him.

He doesn't really know any better...but has really struggled with it... I'm not sure the shop did him any favors.

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completebowler · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2012, 03:22:24 PM »

No they didn't. But to the uninformed bowler they can simply say it isn't the right ball for them, sell them a new one, put some time into the layout, and look like hero's at the end of the day.

Seen it happen before. Some shops think this is a creative business practice...lol.

Strapper_Squared wrote on 3/5/2012 12:32 PM:Guy in my league won a ball (wicked siege) through raffle. The shop obviously didn't know his style and didn't care to find out. They drilled with pin exactly between fingers, just above and mb just under/left of thumb... Made the cg fall exactly on the grip line.

He throws righty, very high track, and low rotation angle... Low revs. The ball does nothing for him.

He doesn't really know any better...but has really struggled with it... I'm not sure the shop did him any favors.

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All Star Bowling & Trophy

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2012, 05:10:15 PM »

I would think if you had a bowler that had been throwing a conventional grip and wanted to get their first finger tip grip ball. That throwing a ball with a conventional grip, wouldn't give you the same pap they would have with a fingertip grip ball.

So unless you had a ball with a fingertip grip that fit them to throw. There wouldn't be any point in them throwing their old conventional grip ball to get the pap.

Unless there is something that says the pap on the conventional grip ball is the same as the pap on the fingertip thrown ball?

HAMBONE wrote on 3/5/2012 10:29 AM:Just an honest question. If a bowler came in not knowing his PAP, why would you not have him throw a few

and help him figure this out? It seems to me that if you could give this bowler, ball reactions that fit HIM,

you would have a loyal customer for life.

Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

Edited by Aloarjr810 on 3/7/2012 at 3:21 PM

JohnP · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2012, 12:39:50 PM »

You're right, the PAP on a conventional ball won't be the same as on a fingertip ball. If the customer can throw one of my balls I let them do that and take the PAP, if not I've got several friends with various size hands that will allow use of one of their old balls. If there's no other choice I take the PAP from the conventional ball and use it as a very general guide on laying the ball out. -- JohnP

Aloarjr810 wrote on 3/5/2012 4:10 PM:
I would think if you had a bowler that had been throwing a conventional grip and wanted to get their first finger tip grip ball. That throwing a ball with a conventional grip, wouldn't give you the same pap they would have with a fingertip grip ball.

So unless you had a ball with a fingertip grip that fit them to throw. There wouldn't be any point in them throwing their old conventional grip ball to get the pap.

Unless there is something that says the pap on the conventional grip ball is the same as the pap on the fingertip thrown ball?

HAMBONE wrote on 3/5/2012 10:29 AM:
Just an honest question. If a bowler came in not knowing his PAP, why would you not have him throw a few

and help him figure this out? It seems to me that if you could give this bowler, ball reactions that fit HIM,

you would have a loyal customer for life.

Drop and give me 10

Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

Djarum · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2012, 04:01:58 PM »

If a balls drilled like that for me it would probably track over my thumb or finger holes.

Strapper_Squared wrote on 3/5/2012 12:32 PM:Guy in my league won a ball (wicked siege) through raffle. The shop obviously didn't know his style and didn't care to find out. They drilled with pin exactly between fingers, just above and mb just under/left of thumb... Made the cg fall exactly on the grip line.

He throws righty, very high track, and low rotation angle... Low revs. The ball does nothing for him.

He doesn't really know any better...but has really struggled with it... I'm not sure the shop did him any favors.

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So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway? - Stewie Griffin

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #13 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:48:24 AM »

HAMBONE wrote on 05.03.2012 10:29 AM:
Just an honest question. If a bowler came in not knowing his PAP, why would you not have him throw a few

and help him figure this out? It seems to me that if you could give this bowler, ball reactions that fit HIM,

you would have a loyal customer for life.

That's just the point. If you have a beginner who wants to start with fingertip, you do not have a stable PAP at all. Even if you sell the person a polyester spare ball, drill it first, try to figure out a PAP and drill a second reactive ball according to it, you will still IMHO not get a good and satisfactory result. Going for something generic like a label layout is in this situation still better than making things über-complicated, since there's little benefit to gain.

Even with an experienced player witha stable PAP it might be tricky to make "some shots" - only if that person has a properly fitting ball with him/her. If a ball does not fit well, you quickly do weird release things that shift the PAP around - also not a good basis for a sophisticated layout.

DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

JustRico · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2012, 10:51:52 AM »

My view on the need to use a generic PAP today....in the case that the bowler is going from conventional to fingertip my suggestion would be due to the cores being stronger today, than years ago when the drill sheets showed the pins next to the ring fingers. I would go with the pin below the ring finger to possibly eliminate potential for over flaring. Now a day, with the core, pin next to ring finger can be anywhere from 4 1/2" (which is safe) to 2" if they are a lower track or spinner. Just looking at it differently due to core strength.

Here's a great scam by a pro shop operator that is no longer in business...surprisingly....if you were a new bowler, he would talk you into a higher performance bowling ball and drill conventional. He would place the pin, cg & mass bias all in line between the fingers. His recommendation would be throw the ball for a month get a track then bring the ball back, redrill finger tip and relay it out. And charge another whopping $50+ to redrill it! It was amazing how many bowlers he scammed into this.....and surprisingly he is no longer in business

The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.

Author Topic: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard? (Read 24173 times)

maxlover

Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

imholte08

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

Aloarjr810

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

Brickguy221

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

dizzyfugu

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

Russell

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

HAMBONE

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

Russell

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

Strapper_Squared

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

completebowler

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

Aloarjr810

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

JohnP

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

Djarum

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

dizzyfugu

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?

JustRico

Re: Positive Axis Point (PAP) Standard?