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Author Topic: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores  (Read 14762 times)

TonyinPortland

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Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« on: August 25, 2015, 01:57:11 AM »
One of our teams has pre-bowled a couple times.  This was a few years back.  I remember asking our secretary (or someone), if someone shot a 300, did it still count (as an honor score) and was told it would.

However the current rule says it does not.  Is this something that was changed recently, or was it always this way?  Also, what is the logic behind not allowing it?

From USBC Rules:

111e/7 Can you explain when High Scores will or will not be recognized by USBC?
USBC will recognize High Scores bowled when:
1. Two scheduled opponents pre-bowl or post-bowl together. (Direct Opposition.)
2. The entire league is rescheduled.
3. A team is bowling alone during league play because the opposing team has pre- or post-
 bowled.
4. A team bowling alone because the league has uneven number of teams.
High Scores will not be recognized by USBC when:
1. An individual or team bowls unopposed.
2. Games are bowled unopposed before or after a league session.
3. League has uneven number of teams and the team without an opponent does not bowl
 with the league.
4. Two teams from the same league that are not scheduled against each other bowl together.
5. Two teams from different leagues bowl together.

 

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2015, 03:09:01 AM »
This is a change from how it was before.  The logic behind it is probably because of the number of 300 games and 900 series bowled that way.  No one with a vested interest to verify the scores.  Just my opinion.

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BallReviews-Removed0385

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2015, 04:36:35 AM »
I'd say that bowling unopposed creates a big advantage.  No one is there to break down the oil pattern and force the bowler to move (any direction) and follow the shot.  With one person bowling three games, it may not change noticeably whatsoever.

Also, bowling unopposed allows the bowler to get into a rhythm and bowl faster than when he must wait for the other team and his teammates before his next shot.  The pace is an advantage.

Bowling before or after league may or may not be a "legal" oil pattern as far as USBC is concerned.  For example, after some leagues finish the shot is so wide open that you simply cannot miss far enough outside that the ball doesn't get back to the pocket, etc.  It would be nice if the bowler needed to display SOME skill...

I don't know if these reasons are why USBC has changed, but they should be considered.  This also assumes that we want our governing body (USBC) to promote fairness, too.  Just my .02.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 04:41:10 AM by notclay »

TonyinPortland

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2015, 06:01:43 AM »
I'd say that bowling unopposed creates a big advantage.  No one is there to break down the oil pattern and force the bowler to move (any direction) and follow the shot.  With one person bowling three games, it may not change noticeably whatsoever.

Also, bowling unopposed allows the bowler to get into a rhythm and bowl faster than when he must wait for the other team and his teammates before his next shot.  The pace is an advantage.

Bowling before or after league may or may not be a "legal" oil pattern as far as USBC is concerned.  For example, after some leagues finish the shot is so wide open that you simply cannot miss far enough outside that the ball doesn't get back to the pocket, etc.  It would be nice if the bowler needed to display SOME skill...

I don't know if these reasons are why USBC has changed, but they should be considered.  This also assumes that we want our governing body (USBC) to promote fairness, too.  Just my .02.

OK so it was changed.  What you say makes a lot of sense, although, the rule says that if the team you were supposed to bowl against did pre-bowl and thus are not present during the league, that team would qualify for honor scores, even though they would have bowled unopposed on that night.

Also, if you are bowling a blind team, on league night, you would qualify

But of course that does not take into consideration the lane conditions that may or may not be bowled on when pre-bowling.

And as far as a single person pre-bowling, of course that could be a big advantage, I didn't realize that was even allowed.


Pinbuster

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 06:06:21 AM »
I believe they would allow you to turn in the score, it just wasn't eligible for an award.

It has been in place for some time. I believe it came about because of a youth bowler Robert Mushtare. He turned in 2 prebowled 900 awards in about a 3 month period. They dis-allowed a one of them because of a sanctioning issue but did give him one award.

This was about 10 years ago.

Metal_rules

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2015, 06:59:25 AM »
Here is what doesn't make sense. Pre-bowling or makeup doesn't count for honor scores, but a trio league will?  So compare 5 bowlers to 6 - the pattern wont break down much more with 1 extra bowler.
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spmcgivern

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2015, 07:24:33 AM »
Here is what doesn't make sense. Pre-bowling or makeup doesn't count for honor scores, but a trio league will?  So compare 5 bowlers to 6 - the pattern wont break down much more with 1 extra bowler.

Or a doubles league. 

I think the main issue is the lack of supervision.  Plus I have seen people who went to practice and if they are bowling good or the shot is very friendly, then they would immediately try to pre-bowl.  I have even heard of people bowling well during practice and calling those scores their pre-bowl scores and just fill out a recap.

Aloarjr810

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2015, 08:26:01 AM »
Here is what doesn't make sense. Pre-bowling or makeup doesn't count for honor scores, but a trio league will?  So compare 5 bowlers to 6 - the pattern wont break down much more with 1 extra bowler.

It's not about how the pattern breaks down, So It doesn't matter if it's trio, double or singles league.

It mainly about supervision and "unopposed" pre/post bowling

Most all Pre/Post post bowling anymore is unsupervised. It's not like the old days when someone (usually a officer) from the league, had to be there to watch you bowl.

Plus there's a lot of unopposed pre/post bowling now.

So the possibility of cheating during pre/post bowling started being discussed. Mainly do to Robert Mushtare bowling two 900 series by himself in a empty bowling alley.

So they changed the rules

« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 08:28:19 AM by Aloarjr810 »
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MI 2 AZ

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2015, 01:21:49 PM »
I thought that Mushtare bowled a pre-bowl 900 which was turned down.  He then bowled two more pre-bowled, which were approved.  One of them he bowled with his friend who had a 300 game that same set.  Another, had someone who watched a couple of frames so those were his witnesses to those 900 sets.  There was a lot of negative publicity of that and then USBC changed the rules in regards to pre or post bowling for awards.  Mushtare, in total, had three 900s but only two approved.
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J_w73

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2015, 02:58:03 PM »
I thought that Mushtare bowled a pre-bowl 900 which was turned down.  He then bowled two more pre-bowled, which were approved.  One of them he bowled with his friend who had a 300 game that same set.  Another, had someone who watched a couple of frames so those were his witnesses to those 900 sets.  There was a lot of negative publicity of that and then USBC changed the rules in regards to pre or post bowling for awards.  Mushtare, in total, had three 900s but only two approved.
I think you are correct.
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kidlost2000

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2015, 04:00:58 PM »
My question is how many bowlers on this post have prebowled,  post bowled,  or bowled a blind team and shot any of the mentioned honor scores?

We had a blind team in our league last year and I'd rather have stayed at home and done anything else besides waste time "practicing" while being counted as a league event.

Bowlers aren't the best of character and when left unattended the results can be less then honest.
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tleep61

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2015, 04:29:30 PM »
I've bowled one like this - my whole team pre-bowled due to a conflict with a state tournament. I shot a 300 - the center has automatic scoring, so my printout showed no score adjustments/corrections. In addition to my team, there were two of our local association board members there watching (just happened to stay around after a board meeting)  - but because it was pre-bowled, unopposed it wasn't able to be sanctioned.
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TonyinPortland

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2015, 06:47:47 PM »
The simple solution is to go back to where someone has to be present if you pre-bowl(league officer or USBC official)  Or perhaps the league would be able to vote on allowing someone from the house to be designated to do it.

If fear of cheating is the problem, the situation where you have the read-out with no corrections should be good enough, although what if a situation where you did have to make a legitimate correction occurred?

t1buck

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2015, 07:30:34 PM »
Someone actual prove Musthare scores could have been fake with the scoring system they used by just putting a towel or a piece of paper over the camera for scoring. An yes it is basically a musthare rule because of him bowling 3 900 with in a couple of months and all of them where during prebowl or postbowl and from what I heard the center was not even open yet on all 3 of them. An I do not see USBC changing the rule.  Know if you bowl unopposed on they schedule night/time of league they count. Same for bowling the blind team on the schedule night/time of league they count.

SG17

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Re: Pre-Bowling Honor Scores
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2015, 07:36:25 PM »
I have seen a pre-bowled 300; it was back in 1998-1999 season.  only time I have witnessed or had a league participant that I was in throw an honor score with a pre-bowling.

RE: Mushtare, I also seem to recall complaints regarding this because the center he bowled the 900 was owned by his family.  at least that is what I recall hearing. may not be true.

But I have always thought of the "no honor scores when pre-bowling" as the "Mushtare rule"