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Author Topic: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?  (Read 24209 times)

don coyote

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Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« on: May 18, 2021, 02:25:35 PM »
How come I never see the professional bowlers using close(1.5 to 2") Pin to Pap on tour? What do they know that apparently we don't?

One of the local pro shop's I frequent does not recommend urethane but close Pin to Pap instead?

 

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2021, 03:02:44 PM »
How come I never see the professional bowlers using close(1.5 to 2") Pin to Pap on tour? What do they know that apparently we don't?

One of the local pro shop's I frequent does not recommend urethane but close Pin to Pap instead?

I used to wonder the same thing but then I thought about it and came up with this:

The Pros are instant marketers/advertisers the second they put a ball in their hands.  Essentially, when you go short pin, you are virtually taking performance away from the ball.  EX:  You take an asymmetric ball meant to be pretty angular and you watch a pro on TV use it with a short pin, they take away that balls intended performance/use.  The masses are not that knowledgable yet when it comes to what a ball is supposed to do.  All they care about is how much it hooks.  They like to watch balls go 40 feet and then go sideways.  So when watching a pro use a ball on TV and the ball doesnt go sideways, their first though could be that they have no interest in buying one and why spend $200 on a ball that doesnt hook. 

Randy said it during the US Open.  He said that urethane is boring and thinks it is bad for the sport.  The sport is supposed to evolve and instead took a step backward by using technology from the 80s.  Viewers would like to be entertained and watching a ball leave flat 10s due to lack of entry angle is not entertaining.  Resin balls can leave flat 10s as well but the carry percentage is typically higher with resin.  Urethanes and short pin layouts have their place.  But when you are trying to promote the latest and greatest high end ball, the last thing you want to do is kill the hook potential by putting a short pin layout on it.

I, personally, am an advocate with using short pin layouts for specific conditions.  However, unless somebody comes on here wanting something different yet already having 6 balls or more in their possession, I dont really promote it.  Most bowlers only bowl on sport conditions a couple times a year if at all.  But when it comes to Pros bowling on TV, they have to try and appeal to the masses.
Steven Vance
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Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

justlane

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2021, 01:44:07 PM »

I also like to have a ball drilled 2" pin to PAP because it allows me to play closer to friction with straighter lines.  If the lanes open up a bunch is when I put it away. 

I don't think it "cripples" reaction per se, just flares earlier to allow more control on the back ends.  With proper surface match-up I can actually use it more than some think.
Lane Carter

don coyote

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2021, 02:34:16 PM »
That makes perfect sense, but what about using a middle of the road slow selling ball instead of the top of the line premium ball?

The average bowler uses middle of the road ball more often than not. I know I do!

bradl

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2021, 03:36:25 PM »
That makes perfect sense, but what about using a middle of the road slow selling ball instead of the top of the line premium ball?

The average bowler uses middle of the road ball more often than not. I know I do!

They definitely have done that.. I can't name how many times Ebonite's high end ball was out (Source, Challenge, Champion, Pivot, etc.), yet Tommy Jones went back to that trusty Gamebreaker.. or when the original runs of the Black Widow were out or even the Taboos, and O'Neill went to the Onyx Vibe (with exception to those couple of times he used the BW Nasty).

Just to play the eager beaver, I'd love to see what would happen if one of the helicopter spinners from Hong Kong or Macau or Taipei bowls a PBA event and makes the show.

BL.

HankScorpio

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2021, 05:37:42 PM »
I think you see it more often with lefties that know they HAVE to stay as far left as possible the entire block. When urethane doesn’t work, they still have to make that area work. When urethane doesn’t work for righties, they just jump left with resin.

Off the top of my head, Ciminelli said he was using short pins when he won last year. Many of Packy’s videos show short pin layouts as well for balls that he intends to primarily use on tour.

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2021, 11:11:17 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhs7GBjmDPE

This is the perfect example of what I was talking about.  Packy states early on that he is not getting the full potential of the ball with the layout he put on it (1 inch pin to PAP).
Steven Vance
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Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

Juggernaut

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2021, 12:51:53 PM »
Don’t let a short pin layout fool you.

After hearing about the virtues of short pin layouts for years, I finally broke down and let my driller drill a ball with a 2 inch pin to pap layout to try to replace a urethane ball. I had a black quantum that I loved with a 4 inch layout, so figured I would drill a second with the shorter pin to pap layout.

 Evidently, even a 2 inch pin to pap layout will flare, and the short pin one will flare almost as much as the other one (if not just as much), and on house shot, I end up playing the same exact line with either one of them.

 My suggestion is, if you are going to try a short pin to pap, make it shorter than 2 inches. I know if I end up doing it again, I’ll probably go with a 1 inch drilling.
Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

Strider

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2021, 07:47:23 AM »
Is there a certain type of ball that a short pin drilling works best with?  Some of the patterns I'm bowling on now look like urethane would match up well with, but often doesn't.  I have a Brunswick Ringer (red) that I never really matched up with.  I'd have to plug a weight hole to use it no matter what.  Maybe it would be a good candidate to try a 1" pin drilling?  I assume a very short pin drilling negates many of the properties of the ball (high/low RG, rolly/flippy...), minus the cover stock of course.

SVstar34

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2021, 10:45:15 AM »
Is there a certain type of ball that a short pin drilling works best with?  Some of the patterns I'm bowling on now look like urethane would match up well with, but often doesn't.  I have a Brunswick Ringer (red) that I never really matched up with.  I'd have to plug a weight hole to use it no matter what.  Maybe it would be a good candidate to try a 1" pin drilling?  I assume a very short pin drilling negates many of the properties of the ball (high/low RG, rolly/flippy...), minus the cover stock of course.

Mo and those who followed his teachings recommend asymmetric solids.. I just recently drilled a Track Proof Hybrid with a 2" pin-pap (at the recommendation of my PSO instead of an Obsession Tour) and I'm enjoying it a lot. A very controlled reaction, doesn't like to get too deep but I have had some success hooking it on a drier league shot
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 12:24:16 PM by SVstar34 »

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2021, 12:29:23 PM »
If you take a ball with a higher differential, of course the ball is still going to have some flare potential.  The difference is where the flare starts to initiate.  If you watch videos with a piece of tape on the PAP and the layout has a 5 inch pin to PAP; the piece of tape is pretty stationary through the first roughly 15 to 20 feet and then you see the ball really start to rev up.  On a short pin, the tape flares almost immediately, but the core has a much shorter distance to "lay down", so the backend is super smooth.  So, theoretically, you could play the same area on the lane, but your look would be totally different.  This is why even on Cheetah, you see guys on telecasts still using high end balls with pins 5 inches from their PAP.  Where you would see the difference is when they miss inside, you notice the ball check up and go sideways barely hitting the head pin on the brooklyn side.  If they were using short pin, the reaction would be smoother overall and may catch more of the headpin even though it still may be on the brooklyn side.

Strider,

It all goes back to matching the ball strength to the condition.  For me, on a shorter pattern, I am using an entry level type of ball with a lower differential.  Once you get into more league length patterns, you could go with something more mid/upper-mid performance type of ball.  Shorter patterns, go with a ball like a Beast or Rhino and league length patterns do something like a Phaze II or Allure Solid.
Steven Vance
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Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

Strider

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2021, 02:13:44 PM »
Thanks Twohands834, sounds like I might repurpose the Ringer for the short pin.  Right now it's just collecting dust.  It's supposed to be a low friction, less aggressive cover stock.  I don't want to buy anything new, and the only other ball I could use is quite a bit more aggressive.  I like true short patterns (less than 35 feet), but it's the 36-39 foot patterns that I tend to struggle on.

https://123bowl.com/bowling-balls/brunswick/ringer-burgundy-pearl/

don coyote

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2021, 04:19:35 PM »
Thanks for the input!

Is there much difference between Symmetric and Asymmetric in regards to the close pin?

What I am asking is, Do you suggest a closer pin to pap for Symmetric say, 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" for Asymmetric, or the same for both?

Is there much of a difference?

ignitebowling

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2021, 12:54:48 PM »
Full potential out of a ball?  It's funny because it's something Mo would argue often on pin down layouts.  Any deviation from 3 3/8" pin to pap reduces flare.  Which means you are no longer using "full potential" of a ball. 

If the ball you drill is serving the purpose you need it for…. Its using the full potential.
Ignite your game, and set the lanes on fire. www.facebook.com/ignitebowling  or @ignite_bowling

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2021, 12:57:12 PM »
Thanks for the input!

Is there much difference between Symmetric and Asymmetric in regards to the close pin?

What I am asking is, Do you suggest a closer pin to pap for Symmetric say, 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" for Asymmetric, or the same for both?

Is there much of a difference?

The main difference is going to be the MB placement.  I want to say Mo says to put the MB 6 1/2 to 6 3/4 from PAP.  May need someone to reconfirm this.  I think there is a video on youtube referencing this.  I just did a 2 inch layout on a Messenger based on a video of his where I put the pin at 45 degrees from the VAL.  I have yet to use it but plan on it in the next week or two. 
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager