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Author Topic: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?  (Read 16542 times)

don coyote

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Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« on: May 18, 2021, 02:25:35 PM »
How come I never see the professional bowlers using close(1.5 to 2") Pin to Pap on tour? What do they know that apparently we don't?

One of the local pro shop's I frequent does not recommend urethane but close Pin to Pap instead?

 

jimjames

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milorafferty

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2021, 06:02:44 PM »
I assume the Venom Shock is the solid (purple cover with orange snake head).  I don't remember a pearl.  The rg is the same as the C4 and the differential is even lower.  The Venom Shock has tons of shape down lane, but obviously the cover is different.

The oob surface on the C4 was 4000, but it looked duller than that to me.  After a number of games I resurfaced to 4000 abralon with my spinner and a fresh pad.  I tried that a few weeks off and on.  Right now it's at 3000 abralon and I like it less.  Still doesn't handle heavier volumes but forces me left because of the stronger surface.  Maybe strong cover, rolly core, and somewhat strong surface is a bad combination for this ball?  I might try something like 1000 or 2000 abralon with some polish on top.  Allow it to get down lane but still have some aggressiveness from the cover.

I remember trying the C4 on a long slick pattern when I first got it.  Dragon I think.  After they broke down some (2nd game) and I had to move quite a bit left with the Phase II, I thought the C4 might be a decent look moving back right near where I started with the Phase II.  It had basically no shape to it.  Far enough left to catch some fresh head oil and it never read down lane.  Try to square up and early hook.  I wasn't trying to really open up my angles and look for boom down lane, but I was surprised how little it hooked.  It should be a nice step down from the Phase II, but I'm not sure where the ball fits.  It should be pretty close to an IQ tour nano pearl, but I'm not seeing it.

I don't have the C4 in front of me, but the pin is over and a little right of my ring finger - 4 to 4.5" from my PAP.  CG is back towards my thumb but that probably doesn't really matter.  Duller didn't look any better, so maybe some polish will work.  Can't be much worse.  :)

Venom Shock Pearl had a different core, some as the Venom Cobra. The VS Pearl and Cobra play completetly different (for me) than the original Venom Shock at the same surface. The closest thing currently to a pearl version of the VS would be the Fatal Venom.
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TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2021, 12:37:59 PM »
I assume the Venom Shock is the solid (purple cover with orange snake head).  I don't remember a pearl.  The rg is the same as the C4 and the differential is even lower.  The Venom Shock has tons of shape down lane, but obviously the cover is different.

The oob surface on the C4 was 4000, but it looked duller than that to me.  After a number of games I resurfaced to 4000 abralon with my spinner and a fresh pad.  I tried that a few weeks off and on.  Right now it's at 3000 abralon and I like it less.  Still doesn't handle heavier volumes but forces me left because of the stronger surface.  Maybe strong cover, rolly core, and somewhat strong surface is a bad combination for this ball?  I might try something like 1000 or 2000 abralon with some polish on top.  Allow it to get down lane but still have some aggressiveness from the cover.

I remember trying the C4 on a long slick pattern when I first got it.  Dragon I think.  After they broke down some (2nd game) and I had to move quite a bit left with the Phase II, I thought the C4 might be a decent look moving back right near where I started with the Phase II.  It had basically no shape to it.  Far enough left to catch some fresh head oil and it never read down lane.  Try to square up and early hook.  I wasn't trying to really open up my angles and look for boom down lane, but I was surprised how little it hooked.  It should be a nice step down from the Phase II, but I'm not sure where the ball fits.  It should be pretty close to an IQ tour nano pearl, but I'm not seeing it.

I don't have the C4 in front of me, but the pin is over and a little right of my ring finger - 4 to 4.5" from my PAP.  CG is back towards my thumb but that probably doesn't really matter.  Duller didn't look any better, so maybe some polish will work.  Can't be much worse.  :)

After reading this...this is my thought (but also based on my experience with the GB2).  The C4 is more of a house shot ball.  I understand it is a benchmark ball.  But I think that ball would be more usable if the differential was .050 - .055 for sport conditions based on the fact it would give you more continuation on the backend of the lane.  Polishing it might help some.  Another question is how high above your fingers is the pin?  If it is high, which would mean closer to your VAL, then it would help retain a little energy for backend.  But if it is less than 2 inches, you put the core in a more rolly position hence lack of shape on the backend.  I think for that ball to shine in its current state, you would need to be on a 42-44 foot pattern when you can play straight up second arrow.  So on a 42-44 foot pattern, it would look something like this:

C4 playing the track area if you need early read and continuation.
Ringer if you can play same area but want a smoother breakpoint.
Venom Shock or Phaze II when that area breaks down and you can move into third arrow and play the bounce.

I think the C4 would shine the most on non sport conditions where you are more house shot/modified house type patterns around 40-42 feet where you can play 12ish at the arrows with breakpoint around 8-10.  You could straighten your angles blending in the friction outside with the oil inside.  But you cant move left and belly the ball due to not enough shape out of the core on the backend. That is where the Venom Shock and Phaze II come in.

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Strider

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2021, 01:20:16 PM »
If you're right that would be disappointing.  I bought the ball as a benchmark type reaction for sport conditions.  I was originally looking for something with a little higher differential, but several people who all know my game well all suggested the C4 as a true benchmark reaction for sport patterns.  The pin is about an inch above the ring finger, so yes, rolly core position, but that's what I (thought I) wanted.  Even a rolly core/cover should see more motion on the back than I'm seeing so far.  If I wanted to play right up second arrow on a 42' pattern I could use the Tsunami, and I know it would hook on the back.  I don't bowl on a THS with any regularity, so I need to find a way to make this ball useful on medium to medium+ (med/long, or med/heavy) sport patterns.

So aside from the obvious cover differences, what makes a ball like the Venom Shock (with even lower differential) have so much more shape on the back end over the C4?

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2021, 02:37:37 PM »
If you're right that would be disappointing.  I bought the ball as a benchmark type reaction for sport conditions.  I was originally looking for something with a little higher differential, but several people who all know my game well all suggested the C4 as a true benchmark reaction for sport patterns.  The pin is about an inch above the ring finger, so yes, rolly core position, but that's what I (thought I) wanted.  Even a rolly core/cover should see more motion on the back than I'm seeing so far.  If I wanted to play right up second arrow on a 42' pattern I could use the Tsunami, and I know it would hook on the back.  I don't bowl on a THS with any regularity, so I need to find a way to make this ball useful on medium to medium+ (med/long, or med/heavy) sport patterns.

So aside from the obvious cover differences, what makes a ball like the Venom Shock (with even lower differential) have so much more shape on the back end over the C4?

I did think about that.  I had a Violent Eruption that was low rg and lower diff and that ball was pretty angular.  It had to be the cover that was very responsive to friction.  But because it was a shiny pearl, it got through the fronts very easily.  That was my "move left and wheel on it" ball.  It very well could be the cover and surface of the Venom Shock as well. I do not know Motiv very well.  But it could be that the cover is very responsive to friction. Its really the only thing that makes sense. 
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bowling_rebel

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2021, 05:37:51 AM »
Daria Pajak using a 1 inch pin to pap



vindo27

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2021, 05:01:38 PM »
Thinking of taking a current ball that I have and red rolling it with a short pin. Better candidate, original ripcord or original venom shock?

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2021, 07:20:04 AM »
Thinking of taking a current ball that I have and red rolling it with a short pin. Better candidate, original ripcord or original venom shock?

Typically you would want to use a ball designed for control and not skid/flip for the fact that coverstocks play a huge part in the skid/flip reaction and it is not the cover you are changing to obtain the short pin reaction.  Looking at the Motiv ball chart, the Ripcord is an angular ball whereas the Venom Shock is a smoother rolling ball.  So if it were me; I would definitely go with the Venom Shock.
Steven Vance
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Strider

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2021, 08:06:15 AM »
Follow up.

The Tsunami H2O was skidding too far down lane where I started in practice (42' Mark Roth pattern).  It didn't look like enough ball for the track area.  Switched to the short pin Ringer since it's a bit stronger overall.  The shape looked good, but the one shot I threw at a full rack left a really flat 10 pin.  I may have been able to make it work, but didn't have enough time during practice to find out.  The 4000 grit Ordnance C4 looked worse though.  Still too early and nothing left for down lane.  After league I took it to 2000 and added some polish (Snake Oil).  I'd like to try it next week on Carmen Salvino (44'), but don't think I want to tie up a spot in the bag.  It might have to wait until winter sport league starts back up to try the C4 again.  I have to find a surface/lane condition for this ball to be useful.  I ended up moving further right than the pattern should have played and had a really good night with the H2O.  Barely had to move the first 3 games, but had to move about 2 arrows left for the 4th game on the end pair.

SVstar34

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2021, 03:31:00 PM »
Follow up.

The Tsunami H2O was skidding too far down lane where I started in practice (42' Mark Roth pattern).  It didn't look like enough ball for the track area.  Switched to the short pin Ringer since it's a bit stronger overall.  The shape looked good, but the one shot I threw at a full rack left a really flat 10 pin.  I may have been able to make it work, but didn't have enough time during practice to find out.  The 4000 grit Ordnance C4 looked worse though.  Still too early and nothing left for down lane.  After league I took it to 2000 and added some polish (Snake Oil).  I'd like to try it next week on Carmen Salvino (44'), but don't think I want to tie up a spot in the bag.  It might have to wait until winter sport league starts back up to try the C4 again.  I have to find a surface/lane condition for this ball to be useful.  I ended up moving further right than the pattern should have played and had a really good night with the H2O.  Barely had to move the first 3 games, but had to move about 2 arrows left for the 4th game on the end pair.

Are you just bowling on a very high friction surface? Mark Roth 42' pattern is 28ml which should be plenty of oil for the C4

Strider

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2021, 04:07:09 PM »
They're well maintained synthetics, but I don't know which type.  I am a little rev dominant and have very little tilt, so I often see early hook before others, but not necessarily on the fresh.  I'm usually throwing something weaker than most people because of my slower ball speed.  I use a Phase II at 2000 abralon as my oil ball, so it's not like I never use stronger equipment, but I only seem to use it on 44+ feet of oil.

Strider

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2021, 07:20:29 AM »
Been on long patterns the past few weeks, so the short  pin Ringer hasn't been in play.

Still trying to figure out the Ordnance C4.  League position round + stepladder finals was last night, so figured I'd give it another shot (2000 abralon + polish).  The shot was Dick Weber - 45' but not a lot of volume.  Had a good look with the C4 all through practice, but as soon as some transition hit, the reaction went down the tubes.  You could tell the ball was starting to burn up, but moving in the ball just didn't have enough shape on the back to kick out the corners.  I think I have some Brunswick Rough Buff which should be more of a compound than a true polish - maybe I'll try it in a few weeks when winter league starts backup.

I didn't like that we used Dick Weber for the finals - it's something like 7.5:1 and played pretty much like a house shot.  A lot more oil inside, but plenty of dry outside.  Scores were way up across the board.  All year long shot making was an asset, but for the last week it was a strike fest.  If you shot 200, you probably lost ground to the field.

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2021, 08:31:47 AM »
Been on long patterns the past few weeks, so the short  pin Ringer hasn't been in play.

Still trying to figure out the Ordnance C4.  League position round + stepladder finals was last night, so figured I'd give it another shot (2000 abralon + polish).  The shot was Dick Weber - 45' but not a lot of volume.  Had a good look with the C4 all through practice, but as soon as some transition hit, the reaction went down the tubes.  You could tell the ball was starting to burn up, but moving in the ball just didn't have enough shape on the back to kick out the corners.  I think I have some Brunswick Rough Buff which should be more of a compound than a true polish - maybe I'll try it in a few weeks when winter league starts backup.

I didn't like that we used Dick Weber for the finals - it's something like 7.5:1 and played pretty much like a house shot.  A lot more oil inside, but plenty of dry outside.  Scores were way up across the board.  All year long shot making was an asset, but for the last week it was a strike fest.  If you shot 200, you probably lost ground to the field.

Strider............You saw basically what I was thinking in that the C4 would work better on house type patterns when the heads were pretty heavily oiled.  I think with your slower ball speed, the combination of cover strength and layout is the reason you struggle to match up with it.  My thought is that with the pin that low (bet it is more at 45 degrees to your VAL); it wants to roll and transition too quickly for your ball speed.  I would bet if you went with a 4.5 to 5 inch pin to PAP and 20 to 25 degree angle, you would see more motion downlane.  I am attaching a video of a friend of mine throwing his Ordinance.  He tags on it pretty good and for him the Ordinance is very mellow on the backend.  There is definitely no change of direction because it looks like it wants to read the lane quite early.  If he didnt have that rev rate, the ball would labor. The cover is too strong to play closer to the gutter and ball is too early to see downlane motion when having to move inside. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLdPMGvWKSk
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 08:58:57 AM by TWOHAND834 »
Steven Vance
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Strider

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2021, 09:19:38 PM »
Here's a picture of the Venom Shock and the Ordnance C4.  Pin is in a very similar spot.  The C4 has a longer pin and the assumed MB is a little closer to the VAL, but that should mean very little for symmetric balls.  The Venom Shock is fantastic for opening up the lane, the C4 struggles to hook down lane even on lanes with plenty of friction at the break point.

I edited the picture so you can see the CG on the VS.  Actually it's probably just a little further right than what I drew.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 08:02:53 AM by Strider »

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pro's using close Pin to Pap?
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2021, 10:56:07 AM »
Ok.  So I have been re-reading all the previous posts and the one thing that stood out is your lack of tilt and therefore the ball wanting to read the lane quicker than most other bowlers. Do this.  Take the ball all the way to 4000 and then add polish.  Seems to me we have to figure out how not to get the ball reading so quickly for you.

Here is JR Raymond using it and he has the same issue.  With any early friction the ball checks up fast but when he moves inside; there is no shape and flat 10s himself to death.  The shots he kicked the 10 pin out he was adding a lot of axis rotation to more or less force the ball to have motion down lane. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEUCbj8UgYE&t=563s

Here is another good video.  The ball was money playing straighter near the track but when he moved inside, it was a little weak.  Based on these two videos; it seems like you need to figure out how to get the ball through the first 25-30 feet cleaner and not have the ball read so quickly.  Same with your Ringer.  A ball with the Ringer's strength with a short pin is going to need a lot of push through the front.  May also want to take that ball to 4000 and polish and see what that gives you.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaJ3Z-UUYiA
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 03:56:29 PM by TWOHAND834 »
Steven Vance
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Former Classic Products Assistant Manager