Author Topic: Pros in local tournaments? (Read 10576 times)

n00dlejester · « **on:** April 13, 2008, 11:37:24 PM »

So yesterday I bowled in the NJ State Tournament, and lo and behold Parker Bohn III was there for the 9:00AM singles/doubles squad, and the 12:30PM 5-man team squad. So we start the day bowling doubles, and the first game he fired a 300. He was part of about 10 brackets and obviously destroyed anybody. Because of this people near my pairs (I was on 3-4) were saying that having a pro is a non-PBA event is just not fair. One guy made the analogy that "it's like having Ryan Howard playing for the high school varsity team."

I personally think having pros in local events is fine. The talent gap between the pros and the locals (at least on a THS, which this tournament was) is nowhere near the talent gap between local and pro baseball players. And it was a lot of fun watching him tear it up on a THS (he shot 780 for doubles, and a low 7 for singles). What are your thoughts on all this?

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #61 on:** April 15, 2008, 08:44:01 AM »

Couldn't Pros make guest appearances if they wanted to be nice guys .. enter for scoring only for practice .. why lessing (proper word?)their appearance with betting that they are going to beat the competition?

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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

michelle · « **Reply #62 on:** April 15, 2008, 08:57:54 AM »

The reality is that some pros, exempt or otherwise, also bowl local leagues. Their membership dollars qualify them for association tournaments. If your association does not want them to bowl the tournament, then rewrite the eligibility requirements to exclude them from membership in the first place...

Oh, and am I the only one that finds it ironic that we are watching a thread whining about pros in association tournaments when some of the same posters have expressed a willingness for the association fees to support the PBA?

And another thought...the only person who *might* even be in a position to whine or snivel and have a possible point would be the person who finishes second and, but for the presence of an exempt member, would have been city or state champion.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #63 on:** April 15, 2008, 09:19:06 AM »

quote:
And another thought...the only person who *might* even be in a position to whine or snivel and have a possible point would be the person who finishes second and, but for the presence of an exempt member, would have been city or state champion.

I still think, as I posted in my first reply, that we should look at it this way: how many golfers get to tee it up with Tiger Woods at a local Country Club? Or how many tennis players get to play a match against Andre Agassi? Bowlers have it good when it comes to accessibility to our Pros, and that's why despite a couple of minor negatives, I think overall it's great for the sport if they are welcomed with open arms to compete with ANY bowler, in any event they choose to enter.

To clarify, when I said it was sad if the Pros were entering local tourneys for money, I made that statement not to be a slam against the pros... It was meant to point out that I think it's sad how our Pros are greatly underpaid and undervalued in comparison to other professional athletes.

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9~

It's a Sheep thing... You wouldn't understand!

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #64 on:** April 15, 2008, 09:23:06 AM »

quote:
And another thought...the only person who *might* even be in a position to whine or snivel and have a possible point would be the person who finishes second and, but for the presence of an exempt member, would have been city or state champion.

How about all the guys who came in 2nd in the brackets?
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

DanH78 · « **Reply #65 on:** April 15, 2008, 09:31:28 AM »

quote:

That is the point. Mike Wolfe is a nice guy, and so is PB3, however, they have no place in local City, and/or State tournaments. These events are and should be for the local bowlers.

They are better than 99% of us so they should be bowling with the other 1% in tourneys.

And they really shouldn't be stealing your money in the brackets. And that is what it is on a THS, stealing your money.

They are local guys. You mean if a city/state tournament is held in the house Doug Kent owns he shouldn't be allowed to bowl? It's tough to get more local than that. We aren't talking about PBA guys setting up their own little tour hitting as many City/State/County tournaments around that country as they can. These are tournaments that they have likely bowled in since WAY before they went out on tour.

Parker won 10 brackets, what's that $400? How many brackets did he lose when he shot the small 700? 700 won't even crack the top 10 in the Chicago/Illinois tournaments, so that means someone stole Parkers money.
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It IS next year!

michelle · « **Reply #66 on:** April 15, 2008, 09:42:15 AM »

quote:
quote:
And another thought...the only person who *might* even be in a position to whine or snivel and have a possible point would be the person who finishes second and, but for the presence of an exempt member, would have been city or state champion.

How about all the guys who came in 2nd in the brackets?

Brackets are ALWAYS about luck of the draw. The bowler that finishes second in the brackets by losing to an exempt pro still made money. IMO, they can have a nice cup of STFU. When you bowl scratch, you agree that you were shoe'ing up to take on ALL comers...

If someone is so strapped for money that it REALLY made a difference, then maybe they shouldn't have been in the brackets in the first place...

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #67 on:** April 15, 2008, 09:56:47 AM »

quote:
If someone is so strapped for money that it REALLY made a difference, then maybe they shouldn't have been in the brackets in the first place...

Does this mean it's OK for a PRO to enter brackets against an amateur? Being STRAPPED for money is a different topic .. now we are discussing should a PRO be entered in a tournament against amateurs .. or .. the Tournament Director can write in the acceptance of Pros competing .. but should the Pros be allowed to enter BRACKETS?
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

Krakken · « **Reply #68 on:** April 15, 2008, 10:16:06 AM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
And another thought...the only person who *might* even be in a position to whine or snivel and have a possible point would be the person who finishes second and, but for the presence of an exempt member, would have been city or state champion.

How about all the guys who came in 2nd in the brackets?

Brackets are ALWAYS about luck of the draw. The bowler that finishes second in the brackets by losing to an exempt pro still made money. IMO, they can have a nice cup of STFU. When you bowl scratch, you agree that you were shoe'ing up to take on ALL comers...

If someone is so strapped for money that it REALLY made a difference, then maybe they shouldn't have been in the brackets in the first place...

You aren't shoeing up to take on all comers. You are shoe'ing up to take on local non-professionals. The guys that lose to them in brackets are cheated, the guys that finish one spot below them in the tourney are cheated, and it isn't whining it is fact. Parker will probably shoot 800 on a THS over half the time, and 750+ the rest of the time.

Pro's are pro's for a reason, and the local State and City tourney are for the local bowlers, not emempt touring pros that make $150,000 throwing 6 strikes.

You are right though, the local association needs to re-write the rules. How about flat out PBA Champinos are not eligible.

Just another reason bowlign is heading down the crapper.

rvmark · « **Reply #69 on:** April 15, 2008, 10:37:18 AM »

I can't believe all the comments I am hearing about whether or not pros should be allowed to bowl in their state tournament. I would love the opportunity to be able to be able to bowl with someone of Parker Bohn's skill. Our team is headed to our state tournament this weekend and we are doing it as chance to bowl and have fun, if we end up in the money great, if we bowl bad there's always next year. If we are going to take their money in dues then let them bowl with their friends and have fun doing it.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #70 on:** April 15, 2008, 10:44:37 AM »

quote:
quote:
If someone is so strapped for money that it REALLY made a difference, then maybe they shouldn't have been in the brackets in the first place...

Does this mean it's OK for a PRO to enter brackets against an amateur? Being STRAPPED for money is a different topic .. now we are discussing should a PRO be entered in a tournament against amateurs .. or .. the Tournament Director can write in the acceptance of Pros competing .. but should the Pros be allowed to enter BRACKETS?
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

So... should a 230 avg league bowler be allowed to get matched up against a 190 avg league bowler in tourney brackets? Or should there be different brackets, in 5 pin increments for average group, so everyone is equally paired and has a fair chance to win money?

Personally, I see no difference between getting paired up against the 230 avg. league bowler and PB3 in a bracket.

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9~

It's a Sheep thing... You wouldn't understand!

michelle · « **Reply #71 on:** April 15, 2008, 10:52:29 AM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
And another thought...the only person who *might* even be in a position to whine or snivel and have a possible point would be the person who finishes second and, but for the presence of an exempt member, would have been city or state champion.

How about all the guys who came in 2nd in the brackets?

Brackets are ALWAYS about luck of the draw. The bowler that finishes second in the brackets by losing to an exempt pro still made money. IMO, they can have a nice cup of STFU. When you bowl scratch, you agree that you were shoe'ing up to take on ALL comers...

If someone is so strapped for money that it REALLY made a difference, then maybe they shouldn't have been in the brackets in the first place...

You aren't shoeing up to take on all comers. You are shoe'ing up to take on local non-professionals. The guys that lose to them in brackets are cheated, the guys that finish one spot below them in the tourney are cheated, and it isn't whining it is fact. Parker will probably shoot 800 on a THS over half the time, and 750+ the rest of the time.

Pro's are pro's for a reason, and the local State and City tourney are for the local bowlers, not emempt touring pros that make $150,000 throwing 6 strikes.

You are right though, the local association needs to re-write the rules. How about flat out PBA Champinos are not eligible.

Just another reason bowlign is heading down the crapper.

If you are afraid to bowl scratch against another scratch bowler, then you need to just stay out of the brackets. Scratch bowling should ALWAYS be about not being afraid to shoe up against whoever else is on the squad or in the tournament. At the scratch level, every bowler has the opportunity to at least split the game in the bracket...

And, let us also not forget that not every exempt pro had the opportunity to throw six strikes for $150K, so we can toss that red herring out the window.

Local bowlers have been shoeing up against national touring players for years. I had the benefit of being in a couple of East Texas leagues nearly 20 years ago where it was not uncommon to see Ozio, Mark Williams and/or Wayne Webb sub in the scratch leagues if they had missed the cut in a particular week. All three were living in the Beaumont/Port Arthur area at the time, so it was home for them. Not once did anyone shy away from the challenge of trying to get their points for the week...if anything, those with solid mental games stepped it up a notch.

Lastly, I don't know about you, but there are many associations that have bowlers who possess the game to have been competitive at both the regional and national levels but, for any number of reasons, have opted not to pursue competition at that level. They are still considered an amateur. Are you also afraid to bowl THEM in the brackets? When you worry about WHO you are bowling against instead of what you are doing on the lanes, then you are already behind in count...mental game has much to do with success on the lanes as you have to keep focused on those elements over which you have control.

michelle · « **Reply #72 on:** April 15, 2008, 10:56:04 AM »

quote:
quote:
If someone is so strapped for money that it REALLY made a difference, then maybe they shouldn't have been in the brackets in the first place...

Does this mean it's OK for a PRO to enter brackets against an amateur? Being STRAPPED for money is a different topic .. now we are discussing should a PRO be entered in a tournament against amateurs .. or .. the Tournament Director can write in the acceptance of Pros competing .. but should the Pros be allowed to enter BRACKETS?

Absolutely they ought to be able to enter. ANY BOWLER entering an event with brackets ought to be permitted to enter whatever brackets or side pots are available to their Division. Last I checked, scratch was scratch, not 'scratch with exclusions of the people we perceive as uber-talented'

When you enter an event, you know who is bowling. If you are UNWILLING to take that chance of being randomly assigned against an exempt player, then keep your bracket and sidepot money in your pocket.

Krakken · « **Reply #73 on:** April 15, 2008, 12:48:01 PM »

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Local bowlers have been shoeing up against national touring players for years. I had the benefit of being in a couple of East Texas leagues nearly 20 years ago where it was not uncommon to see Ozio, Mark Williams and/or Wayne Webb sub in the scratch leagues if they had missed the cut in a particular week. All three were living in the Beaumont/Port Arthur area at the time, so it was home for them. Not once did anyone shy away from the challenge of trying to get their points for the week...if anything, those with solid mental games stepped it up a notch.

They are still considered an amateur. Are you also afraid to bowl THEM in the brackets? quote]

Lets get 2 things straight, I am not afraid to bowl anyone. I have and will continue to bowl in a TQR every year, and regional tourneys as well. This was a question of whether they belong in the tourney in the first place, which I feel they do not. This is a tourney for Amateur bowlers and should stay that way. Scratch or handicap, it should be an amateur tourney. And on top of it for a top pro to take bracket money from folks I feel isn't right. Did he even finish 2nd in any of his brackets? Probably not.

2nd, your argument of local league bowlers going against top pros is no argument, it is a LEAGUE, not a tournament. 2 distinctly differnet things. We had a few pros sub in our PBA experience league here and shoot lights out, and no one cared, including me. It was a League, that is for getting better.

and the Roll to Riches sure does count. Could I have bowled in the roll to riches for $150,000? NO. Why should he be able to come to a local City/State Tourney and take money from the local bowlers, many of which think of this as the highlight to their year?

We will probably have to agree to disagree, but your argument about leagues isn't even close to one about taking tournament cash away from local bowlers, and I think you would feel differnet if you got in $100 worth of brackets and drew PB3 in all of them either in the 1st or 2nd game, shot 250+ and got nothing for your efforts in local tourney. Or would you shrug it off and say luck of the draw?....lol

michelle · « **Reply #74 on:** April 15, 2008, 01:11:01 PM »

quote:

and the Roll to Riches sure does count. Could I have bowled in the roll to riches for $150,000? NO. Why should he be able to come to a local City/State Tourney and take money from the local bowlers, many of which think of this as the highlight to their year?

And there were what, 58 exempt players who ALSO did not get to roll for $150K.

Taking money from local bowlers? Hell, he IS a local bowler. Granted, he is a local bowler who also happened to be exempt but the simple fact remains that he is a local bowler who paid his association dues. Therefore, anyone in that situation is someone with whom I have absolutely zero objections to seeing enter the event. Who knows, the increased possibility of crossing with a national pro might even serve to add a few entries on an annual basis...

quote:
We will probably have to agree to disagree, but your argument about leagues isn't even close to one about taking tournament cash away from local bowlers, and I think you would feel differnet if you got in $100 worth of brackets and drew PB3 in all of them either in the 1st or 2nd game, shot 250+ and got nothing for your efforts in local tourney. Or would you shrug it off and say luck of the draw?....lol

A c-note is not anything I am going to be bent out of shape with, win OR lose. It is no different than when I go to nationals and happen to draw Tiffany or Anne-Marie or CDB in the brackets. I put up my money, I post my scores against whoever the computer paired me with. It is also no different than if I were to resume bowling my State tourney and have to potentially face Lynda Barnes or CDB. They bowl in this State and are members of the association.

How is it any different to shoot 250+ and lose to a PB III in the first or second round than to lose to any other bowler posting the number who might not be anything more than a league hack? The result remains the same...out of two scores, yours is second best. Period. Suck it up and pony up in the next set. My god, some of you act like a hundred dollar bill is something to be held in awe...

(Oh, and before you ask, their presence is not why I have not bowled the event the past few years...many will recall my rants about the Association's refusal to run a pure classic division. Until they returned to pure scratch, at least in the top division, I voted with my checkbook.)

Strapper_Squared · « **Reply #75 on:** April 15, 2008, 01:21:00 PM »

I think there is semi-valid points being brought up on either side of the debate. Personally, I have ALWAYS felt that professionals should not be allowed to enter amateur events, period. In making the decision to "turn pro", they are giving up their right (or at least should be) to compete against amateur bowlers. This has nothing to do with the ability (or lack there of) of the local league bowler to shoot 750+ sets on a regular basis and compete, but rather the entire issue of money. They should allow him to compete for titles/trophies, but not for the amateur's prize fund. Also, I don't feel they should have allowed him to enter all the brackets (which I'm sure he did). And if they did all him to enter, they should have made an announcement that he did enter and offer refunds to any amateur who didn't care to compete against a pro for money. Personally, I would have been quite upset if I had invested some cash into brackets to later find out PBIII was in every bracket (regardless of outcome).

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Author Topic: Pros in local tournaments? (Read 10576 times)

n00dlejester

Pros in local tournaments?

JOE FALCO

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

michelle

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

9andaWiggle

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

JOE FALCO

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

DanH78

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

michelle

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

JOE FALCO

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

Krakken

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

rvmark

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

9andaWiggle

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

michelle

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

michelle

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

Krakken

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

michelle

Re: Pros in local tournaments?

Strapper_Squared

Re: Pros in local tournaments?