BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: jmc1972 on October 01, 2017, 12:44:56 AM
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I'm considering investing in the game I love. My Wife and I are considering opening a Proshop. I have zero experience in ball drilling, fitting, filling, etc. yet I have many years of experience in sales.
Has anyone been to the schools offered by Jayhawk and/or Innovative? If we do this we will purchase a complete package from one of these companies which will include the Drill Press, Jigs, Bits, all figment tools, and the list goes on and on. We are figuring it to be somewhere between $35k to $65k after buildout, machinery, and merchandise.
I would like to eventually operate the shop myself. Will the courses provide a decent stepping stone toward operation? How long has it taken people to do proper figment, get the ball reaction the customer wants, etc?
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Anyone that isn't afraid of machinery can learn to put holes in the ball. That is the easiest part to learn. Learning ball reaction is more difficult, and fitting is something that some people get and develop a skill for and others just learn enough to get measurements to put holes in the ball for people.
As for equipment, there are people getting out of the business all the time and used pro shop equipment goes cheap. Unless you have to have new, you would be able to find some used very reasonably priced. As you get started you won't have the skills to take advantage of a $10k mill. Learn the basics, establish your business and clientele then upgrade.
What market are you in? Is the location in a bowling center? How many league bowlers do they have? Was there a shop in the location previously?
It's a very tough business to make any money and you need a really good location to earn even a decent living and the days of making a real good living are about gone unless you have multiple good locations. The margins are low, the PITA factor is high, for some reason your customers think you're getting rich, and the truth is that it is barely worth opening the door.
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Anyone that isn't afraid of machinery can learn to put holes in the ball. That is the easiest part to learn. Learning ball reaction is more difficult, and fitting is something that some people get and develop a skill for and others just learn enough to get measurements to put holes in the ball for people.
As for equipment, there are people getting out of the business all the time and used pro shop equipment goes cheap. Unless you have to have new, you would be able to find some used very reasonably priced. As you get started you won't have the skills to take advantage of a $10k mill. Learn the basics, establish your business and clientele then upgrade.
What market are you in? Is the location in a bowling center? How many league bowlers do they have? Was there a shop in the location previously?
It's a very tough business to make any money and you need a really good location to earn even a decent living and the days of making a real good living are about gone unless you have multiple good locations. The margins are low, the PITA factor is high, for some reason your customers think you're getting rich, and the truth is that it is barely worth opening the door.
Thank you for the info! This is Vital. If we can't get an ROI within 3 years it's not worth our investment. The market is the DFW Megaplex which is where we're moving in the next few months. The goal was to working in the shop full time by 6 months of opening. Maybe I'll hold off it isn't something we'd do in the next couple weeks. I have a lot more research to do (deomographics, radius of competitors, etc). The area where we are really lacking information is distribution. I can't seem to get any information on net costs.
Thanks again!!!
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I think you will find that area very competitive and I would be surprised if you could find an in center location that has a good league bowler base.
I've been in the industry in some fashion for most of my adult life. For the last 10 years the pro shop business is one of the last things I would recommend someone getting into. The league bowler base is shrinking every year and it's gotten to the point even the internet guys are feeling it.
If you want to know prices send me a message with a list of items and I'll look them up when I get home from the club. Tee time in an hour.
I'll also send you some numbers from the last few shops I was in and you can determine for yourself if it's worth doing.
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I have lived in the Chicago area all of my life, and was in the pro shop business for 10 years on and off. Have many friends running shops. The money isn't in a pro shop, especially if you're new to the pro shop game. Unless it's a labor of love, your ROI will be close to nil. Several people work in another industry just to be able to run their shop. I know that as a father of 5, I would be taking food out of my family's mouth if I decided to keep that as my only profession.
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As usual, itsallaboutme has it right. The courses offered by Jayhawk are excellent, I know the people that do them personally, and I really don't think you'd find better or more qualified people. It's a labor of love type deal, and the only way to make money is to be an owner operator, if you're paying other people to run it for you, the money it takes to staff a good operator will take the entirety of your profits, and even when you're an owner operator, unless you're just in a favorable situation or place, it's nothing that's going to make you rich. Now, it can be extremely fulfilling, and it's kind of fun to do what you love for a living, but it CAN suck all the fun out of it because it's more of a customer service position than anything else. Yeah it's bowling themed, but it's all about people. There are bowlers that will continue to go to the same chop shop time and again because they like the person running it. May never get anything right for them, but they like the operator. You could be the most competent person in the world, but if you're abrasive, people aren't going to put up with it.
Running a pro shop is really something you do for personal fulfillment and to help others, and if you do it right, you'll probably be in the black, but it's going to cost you a lot of time and money and requires a lot of personal investment, because once you become the "pro shop guy," that's a 24/7 type of deal to really do it RIGHT. That means spending league nights and practice sessions talking to people and offering them advice, that means getting facebook messages and emails at all hours of the day asking about things. It's beyond dollars and cents. I loved it when I was doing it, and I was damn good if I do say so myself, but now that I'm out for the most part, don't know that I'd go back.
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And if that is not enough to convince you against, the big internet guys are paying 8-10% above distributor cost and the distributors drop ship for them and eat the packaging costs and any mistakes.
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And if that is not enough to convince you against, the big internet guys are paying 8-10% above distributor cost and the distributors drop ship for them and eat the packaging costs and any mistakes.
this is what I hate. Internet guy has limited overhead and my same distributor is shipping the product for them.
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How does guys like McCorvey do it with so many shops if it's such a losing venture?
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In the internet guy's defense, the big guys buy more per week than most shops buy all year.
McCorvey does it with the buying power of 25 or so shops and a lot of guys willing to work part time. He's gotten over the "no man's land number", which is probably 5-10. 3 or 4 you can operate a good location with a helper and have a few satellites, over that and you have to get to a number where you are no longer an operator and just a managing owner.
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Pro shops kind of have to be a walmart type operation. The money comes from volume and cheap labor. Now, where no one really WANTS to work at Walmart, there are people everywhere who want to work in a pro shop and will do it for peanuts, or some do it just for cheaper equipment and access to a drill press. Like he says, 3-4 shops, you operating one, is still busy, but fairly easy to keep on top of everything. 5-10, too many shops to keep track of for you to operate one, but not enough money involved for you to just step back and manage. Not to mention, someone who is a good shop operator and who would really draw people in and make the business a success can make MUCH more money on similar effort elsewhere. The bottom line is that the profit margins the pro shop world typically operate on routinely bankrupt and close businesses of every other kind every day of the week.
In the internet guy's defense, the big guys buy more per week than most shops buy all year.
McCorvey does it with the buying power of 25 or so shops and a lot of guys willing to work part time. He's gotten over the "no man's land number", which is probably 5-10. 3 or 4 you can operate a good location with a helper and have a few satellites, over that and you have to get to a number where you are no longer an operator and just a managing owner.
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I think you will find that area very competitive and I would be surprised if you could find an in center location that has a good league bowler base.
I've been in the industry in some fashion for most of my adult life. For the last 10 years the pro shop business is one of the last things I would recommend someone getting into. The league bowler base is shrinking every year and it's gotten to the point even the internet guys are feeling it.
If you want to know prices send me a message with a list of items and I'll look them up when I get home from the club. Tee time in an hour.
I'll also send you some numbers from the last few shops I was in and you can determine for yourself if it's worth doing.
Thank you! I will send you an email. I don't really know what all I would need to open the doors. Basically it would be a simple stocking order, something along those lines. This opportunity just came up a couple days ago. I haven't had time to create a stocking list.
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As usual, itsallaboutme has it right. The courses offered by Jayhawk are excellent, I know the people that do them personally, and I really don't think you'd find better or more qualified people. It's a labor of love type deal, and the only way to make money is to be an owner operator, if you're paying other people to run it for you, the money it takes to staff a good operator will take the entirety of your profits, and even when you're an owner operator, unless you're just in a favorable situation or place, it's nothing that's going to make you rich. Now, it can be extremely fulfilling, and it's kind of fun to do what you love for a living, but it CAN suck all the fun out of it because it's more of a customer service position than anything else. Yeah it's bowling themed, but it's all about people. There are bowlers that will continue to go to the same chop shop time and again because they like the person running it. May never get anything right for them, but they like the operator. You could be the most competent person in the world, but if you're abrasive, people aren't going to put up with it.
Running a pro shop is really something you do for personal fulfillment and to help others, and if you do it right, you'll probably be in the black, but it's going to cost you a lot of time and money and requires a lot of personal investment, because once you become the "pro shop guy," that's a 24/7 type of deal to really do it RIGHT. That means spending league nights and practice sessions talking to people and offering them advice, that means getting facebook messages and emails at all hours of the day asking about things. It's beyond dollars and cents. I loved it when I was doing it, and I was damn good if I do say so myself, but now that I'm out for the most part, don't know that I'd go back.
Thank you for the info! If we do this I would to run the shop completely. Is the course something that would allow me to operate completely? It seems pretty in-depth but it's quite short. Perhaps it doesn't take a long time to learn and do the drillling, fitting, etc.
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You don't know anything about the technical aspect of the shop, do you know anything about running a business?
Without any drilling experience your sales ability better be on the level of selling ice to eskimos because these days you pretty much need to sell something to everyone that walks in the door.
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Teaching you how to actually operate stuff like itsallaboutme says isn't difficult, operation of all the tools and utilities needed is fairly simple. The biggest part of it is what you'll gain through experience, it's the day to day interactions with the customers that's the real trick. I could teach a monkey how to operate a drill press in about 15 minutes lol. Layout theory isn't too difficult either, it's just getting the concept down, fitting is a huge part because what's functional may not be comfortable and vice versa, not to mention all hands are different, everyone's version of comfortable is different, everyone grips the ball differently, some will never get blisters with the worst fit you've ever seen, and some get them all the time even with the "perfect" fit because they refuse to relax their hand, etc. Plus everyone's definitions of things are different, I think the word "rosin" is the most universal term in bowling. I've heard it used to mean everything from actual rosin to hand conditioner to easy slide to a rosin bag to grip cream to who knows what else, and of course they expect you to know what they mean, because, "you're supposed to be a pro and you don't know what rosin means?" The everyday adventure is not anything they can prepare you for, so best they can do is show you how to operate stuff correctly and show you good technique and how to be efficient, that's a big deal. All kinds of little tips and tricks like "life hack" type stuff that's just common sense that can save you a lot of time and material really easily, so yeah, actual operation of the equipment and execution is nothing that takes long to teach.
As usual, itsallaboutme has it right. The courses offered by Jayhawk are excellent, I know the people that do them personally, and I really don't think you'd find better or more qualified people. It's a labor of love type deal, and the only way to make money is to be an owner operator, if you're paying other people to run it for you, the money it takes to staff a good operator will take the entirety of your profits, and even when you're an owner operator, unless you're just in a favorable situation or place, it's nothing that's going to make you rich. Now, it can be extremely fulfilling, and it's kind of fun to do what you love for a living, but it CAN suck all the fun out of it because it's more of a customer service position than anything else. Yeah it's bowling themed, but it's all about people. There are bowlers that will continue to go to the same chop shop time and again because they like the person running it. May never get anything right for them, but they like the operator. You could be the most competent person in the world, but if you're abrasive, people aren't going to put up with it.
Running a pro shop is really something you do for personal fulfillment and to help others, and if you do it right, you'll probably be in the black, but it's going to cost you a lot of time and money and requires a lot of personal investment, because once you become the "pro shop guy," that's a 24/7 type of deal to really do it RIGHT. That means spending league nights and practice sessions talking to people and offering them advice, that means getting facebook messages and emails at all hours of the day asking about things. It's beyond dollars and cents. I loved it when I was doing it, and I was damn good if I do say so myself, but now that I'm out for the most part, don't know that I'd go back.
Thank you for the info! If we do this I would to run the shop completely. Is the course something that would allow me to operate completely? It seems pretty in-depth but it's quite short. Perhaps it doesn't take a long time to learn and do the drillling, fitting, etc.
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Save your money.
Try and get hired at a local proshop when you move to your new house. After a year see if you are still interested in going out on your own…… or if you even make it a year in the business.
It can teach you a lot, and likely save you a lot of $$$$$ and regret.
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my former pro-shop guy had a near monolopy on the county we lived in. he had customers driving 3 hours one way to visit him. Has customers in the military that he still ships to, where ever they are stationed. the dude worked 8-5 M-F in at his construction job, then 5:30 - 8:00 pm in the shop. all day Saturday and half days on Sunday.
This guy was/is a top notch ball driller; and the construction job is need to pay his bills. he frankly only keeps the pro-shop for the love of the sport and the access to the equipment to drill his own gear as he doesn't trust anyone else to the job for him. I doubt he makes much, if any profit.
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Before I opened a shop again, I'd buy the tools and do it from home. Would rather spend $10k on doing something I love and not have to pay rent on it. It's a sad state of affairs in the pro shop business.
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I think I would spend the money on buying an existing shop instead of starting fresh(if possible).
I don't know squat about running a pro shop, but I do have decent knowledge about running a small business.
Your first goal should not be making a profit, you need to focus on cash flow. These are two completely different things by the way. You can show a profit and still go out of business if you don't have cash on hand to pay rent, taxes, utilities etc.
Buying a bunch of shiny new tools, investing in capital improvements to your shop and adding a bunch of inventory that doesn't turn quickly will be a sure way to churn though your bankroll in short order. If you don't have liquid capital, you will fail, it's that simple in ANY small business.
It's not rocket science as far as ball drilling goes, but I think you probably need super human mental strength for some of the pain-in-the-ass people you will be dealing with though.
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I think I would spend the money on buying an existing shop instead of starting fresh(if possible).
I don't know squat about running a pro shop, but I do have decent knowledge about running a small business.
Your first goal should not be making a profit, you need to focus on cash flow. These are two completely different things by the way. You can show a profit and still go out of business if you don't have cash on hand to pay rent, taxes, utilities etc.
Buying a bunch of shiny new tools, investing in capital improvements to your shop and adding a bunch of inventory that doesn't turn quickly will be a sure way to churn though your bankroll in short order. If you don't have liquid capital, you will fail, it's that simple in ANY small business.
It's not rocket science as far as ball drilling goes, but I think you probably need super human mental strength for some of the pain-in-the-ass people you will be dealing with though.
Thanks for your opinion. I have problem with running a business as I have been a successful business owner for the last 28 years. As far as liquid assets, we have more than we really need. Our retirement accounts are fully funded, our condo is paid off, and our emergency fund can cover at least 5 years of no money coming in. With that said, I still don't wa t to open a business of any kind that won't at least pay for itself and show a profit at year 2. Year one is always the time to work out the bugs as they come. I've looked for an existing shop with clientele, equipment, and stock and I have not been able to find one.
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You don't know anything about the technical aspect of the shop, do you know anything about running a business?
Without any drilling experience your sales ability better be on the level of selling ice to eskimos because these days you pretty much need to sell something to everyone that walks in the door.
I don't have any technical knowledge and your sales adage is funny because....yes I have sold ice (machines) to eskimos lol. I have many years of business operation and ownership.
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Curious, all that experience in business yet you don't seem to have a business plan for this one. Good luck with that.
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Opening a shop is no more than buying yourself a job. Unless you are in a perfect location in a busy bowling center the best you are going to do is cover wages. And depending on the income level you are used to and what you feel your time is worth you probably won't even do that.
There are probably less than a handful of shops in every state that gross over $150k per year. Those locations get gobbled up quick if they ever open up. Being realistic you are going to be doing well if you gross over $100k. If you run a tight ship and do a fair amount of labor you can get your cost of goods below 50%. Figure your expenses and you will quickly realize the pro shop isn't exactly a good business opportunity. In an established market like DFW it is good money chasing none.
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I've thought about opening my own shop again, but only if I could place a server rack in the backroom, manage my actual money making profession from the shop, and have 24 hour access to it. So I'd basically work my normie job 8-4, shop 4-9.
But I also like to see my kids and wife, so there's that...
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Curious, all that experience in business yet you don't seem to have a business plan for this one. Good luck with that.
Figured I'd ask questions of those with experience. It doesn't appear it'd be worth the time to work up a business plan since it seems to be either a break even or loss type of business. If I had millions a year and needed a write-off company then maybe it'd be worth it.
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Curious, all that experience in business yet you don't seem to have a business plan for this one. Good luck with that.
Figured I'd ask questions of those with experience. It doesn't appear it'd be worth the time to work up a business plan since it seems to be either a break even or loss type of business. If I had millions a year and needed a write-off company then maybe it'd be worth it.
Fair enough. Then I think I would just do it in my garage.
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>> yes I have sold ice (machines) to eskimos lol.
But can you sell an elevator to Geronimo?
Anyone know where that quote came from? I do.
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Curious, all that experience in business yet you don't seem to have a business plan for this one. Good luck with that.
Figured I'd ask questions of those with experience. It doesn't appear it'd be worth the time to work up a business plan since it seems to be either a break even or loss type of business. If I had millions a year and needed a write-off company then maybe it'd be worth it.
Fair enough. Then I think I would just do it in my garage.
I thought about that and the issue for me is this....if I'm going to put something in my garage for $19k it better have tires or float lol
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If you are patient and look around you could find a good used setup for $3-4k. For everything you need. There are shops closing all the time. There is no need for a new $10k mill for your garage.
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Lol "shops closing all the time" "let's open a shop!"
I'd be the first person to open a shop if it was remotely profitable, but I just can't.
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Lol "shops closing all the time" "let's open a shop!"
I'd be the first person to open a shop if it was remotely profitable, but I just can't.
That's what I've found from this post. Glad I asked. Maybe I'll pick up a used press, buy some measuring tools, get a scale and just do my own gear. I can offer to do it for friends at a discounted rate. If my PSO wasn't a douche I'd forego the entire idea and go to him.