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Author Topic: re-shooting a tourny  (Read 5974 times)

coco3085

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re-shooting a tourny
« on: February 27, 2014, 04:17:38 PM »
Over the last weekend, i bowled in a "city" tourney, or for clarity, the singles and doubles portion.  When i shot, it went real bad, and it was the same for everyone. Next day, the proprieter and the association president come over to me and offer to let me bowl it over.  Seems they found out what i knew, they hadnt oiled the lanes. Friday night league, cosmic, make up saturaay morning, and two sessions of city. Proprieter says that some of the lanes had as many as 26-30 games on them.  His crew screwed up, supposed to oil before each city tourney shift, but didnt.

Question is, is this legal, and two, is it fair?  I'm not the only one it was offered to
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 04:20:41 PM by coco3085 »
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Bill Thomas

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 04:35:16 PM »
Sounds like the Baltimore City Tournament which apparently was a fiasco from its inception this year.  IMO, it would be both unfair and illegal to let you bowl it over.  They should give you, and anyone else involved in the same situation, their money back.
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bradl

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 06:29:40 PM »
Quote from: coco3085 on February 27, 2014, 04:17:38 PM
Over the last weekend, i bowled in a "city" tourney, or for clarity, the singles and doubles portion.  When i shot, it went real bad, and it was the same for everyone. Next day, the proprieter and the association president come over to me and offer to let me bowl it over.  Seems they found out what i knew, they hadnt oiled the lanes. Friday night league, cosmic, make up saturaay morning, and two sessions of city. Proprieter says that some of the lanes had as many as 26-30 games on them.  His crew screwed up, supposed to oil before each city tourney shift, but didnt.

Question is, is this legal, and two, is it fair?  I'm not the only one it was offered to

I had something similar happen to me two years ago.

AMF, before the Bowlmor buyout, had a $600,000 pins-over-average tournament running. It was the actual last week of center finals before the district finals leg of the tournament. The house started to dress the lanes for league, and did lanes 1-18. they skipped 19 - 29, because of leagues running late using that pair, and continued with 30 - 50. They never got back to lanes 20 - 29, because they would have caused us to run late. So half of my league had a fresh pattern laid down, and the other half (including me) didn't have anything down since the previous day.

Because it was the tournament, they wouldn't let us who were in the tournament bowl it over unless we were in another league at that house. Since this affected our league, the best they gave us was the lineage fees back for that night.

I ended up missing the final spot of qualifying because they screwed up in not dressing the lanes. Needless to say, I have not been back to that alley since.

BL.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 07:15:06 PM »
Rule 315-unless the tournament rules state otherwise participation is limited to one time.

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/USBC2013_14Rulebook.pdf
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 08:35:26 AM by itsallaboutme »
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bradl

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2014, 11:21:19 PM »
Quote from: itsallaboutme on February 27, 2014, 07:15:06 PM
Rule 315-unless the tournament rules state otherwise participation is limited to time.

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/USBC2013_14Rulebook.pdf

True, but could failure to condition the lanes be classified as equipment failure? If so, Rule 321 would apply:

Quote
If equipment failure on a pair of lanes would delay the progress of the game/series, tournament officials can authorize the completion of a game/series on another pair of certified lanes. The interrupted game/series must be resumed from the point of interruption. A tournament official may authorize participants on the pair to practice prior to resuming the game/series.

BL.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2014, 08:09:30 AM »
No, they weren't interrupted.

I'm pretty good with the rules and I can't think of anything about everyone needing to compete on the same lane condition.
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storm making it rain

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2014, 08:10:59 AM »
Don't most city/state tournaments let you bowl more than once?  I know where I live both states I bowl in you can enter in every single squad if you want, there's just restrictions on bowling with the same people and cashing more than once.
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Spider Ball Bowler

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2014, 11:07:53 AM »
Quote from: bradl on February 27, 2014, 06:29:40 PM
Quote from: coco3085 on February 27, 2014, 04:17:38 PM
Over the last weekend, i bowled in a "city" tourney, or for clarity, the singles and doubles portion.  When i shot, it went real bad, and it was the same for everyone. Next day, the proprieter and the association president come over to me and offer to let me bowl it over.  Seems they found out what i knew, they hadnt oiled the lanes. Friday night league, cosmic, make up saturaay morning, and two sessions of city. Proprieter says that some of the lanes had as many as 26-30 games on them.  His crew screwed up, supposed to oil before each city tourney shift, but didnt.

Question is, is this legal, and two, is it fair?  I'm not the only one it was offered to

I had something similar happen to me two years ago.

AMF, before the Bowlmor buyout, had a $600,000 pins-over-average tournament running. It was the actual last week of center finals before the district finals leg of the tournament. The house started to dress the lanes for league, and did lanes 1-18. they skipped 19 - 29, because of leagues running late using that pair, and continued with 30 - 50. They never got back to lanes 20 - 29, because they would have caused us to run late. So half of my league had a fresh pattern laid down, and the other half (including me) didn't have anything down since the previous day.

Because it was the tournament, they wouldn't let us who were in the tournament bowl it over unless we were in another league at that house. Since this affected our league, the best they gave us was the lineage fees back for that night.

I ended up missing the final spot of qualifying because they screwed up in not dressing the lanes. Needless to say, I have not been back to that alley since.

BL.


What would have happened if you or the people on the pairs that didn't get oiled tore it up and the freshly oiled pairs didn't do well?  Would you have complained then?
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coco3085

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2014, 11:32:24 AM »
I guess in my case , I didn't complain . the proprietor looked at the scores that we were shooting and new something was up so he investigated . there were three of our probably top five or seven , bowlers bowling that day , and each of us struggled , like a drop of 175 to 200 pins struggled . one can say that might be partly our fault for not adjusting to lane , but I was throwing a supernatural , and was figuratively speaking hooking the lane . he asked the Association president what was going on because he happened to be there that day  .I do know that you can bowl City Tournament more than once  but my problem is I am bowling it again with the exact same partner and shooting singles again so I think I may be a problem there . we are still bowling inside the tournament dates , so being inside a specific time should not be a problem . I'm just kinda worried of it because I don't think it's right . that's the whole reason I posted this question .
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 11:34:32 AM by coco3085 »
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bradl

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2014, 12:42:53 PM »
Quote from: Spider Ball Bowler on February 28, 2014, 11:07:53 AM

What would have happened if you or the people on the pairs that didn't get oiled tore it up and the freshly oiled pairs didn't do well?  Would you have complained then?

Yes, I would have, because I believe in fair opportunity and a level playing field with everyone across the board. If that can't be given, then there is a problem. They couldn't give everyone the opposite effect by stripping the other 40 lanes and leaving them dry, because everyone's performance would have suffered. I was the 2nd person to notice that those 5 pairs of lanes had nothing on them. It was plainly obvious to see the near 150 - 200pin difference in totals between the lanes that were dressed and the lanes that weren't.

Even more so, This was during league play, and position round for the quarter.  I was high man on my pair at 563 on the night, using a Hammer Cube that I couldn't keep right of the head pin, let alone a Blue Pearl Hammer took off the moment it hit the lane. My direct opponent had the highest average in the league (averaging 236); He shot in the 520s. The League secretary was on my pair and called the manager out about it, which the manager denied there was a problem. Called them out yet again after league was done, which the mechanic admitted that he did not dress those lanes.

User error on their part cost me the last spot for district finals, as I lost that spot when someone shot +121 over their average compared to the +118 I had for the last spot the week prior. All I got back from it was $9.50 that went back into the prize fund, versus the chance to walk out with $50,000. Crappy price to pay for user error.

BL.
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Spider Ball Bowler

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2014, 07:46:27 PM »
Quote from: bradl on February 28, 2014, 12:42:53 PM
Quote from: Spider Ball Bowler on February 28, 2014, 11:07:53 AM

What would have happened if you or the people on the pairs that didn't get oiled tore it up and the freshly oiled pairs didn't do well?  Would you have complained then?

Yes, I would have, because I believe in fair opportunity and a level playing field with everyone across the board. If that can't be given, then there is a problem. They couldn't give everyone the opposite effect by stripping the other 40 lanes and leaving them dry, because everyone's performance would have suffered. I was the 2nd person to notice that those 5 pairs of lanes had nothing on them. It was plainly obvious to see the near 150 - 200pin difference in totals between the lanes that were dressed and the lanes that weren't.

Even more so, This was during league play, and position round for the quarter.  I was high man on my pair at 563 on the night, using a Hammer Cube that I couldn't keep right of the head pin, let alone a Blue Pearl Hammer took off the moment it hit the lane. My direct opponent had the highest average in the league (averaging 236); He shot in the 520s. The League secretary was on my pair and called the manager out about it, which the manager denied there was a problem. Called them out yet again after league was done, which the mechanic admitted that he did not dress those lanes.

User error on their part cost me the last spot for district finals, as I lost that spot when someone shot +121 over their average compared to the +118 I had for the last spot the week prior. All I got back from it was $9.50 that went back into the prize fund, versus the chance to walk out with $50,000. Crappy price to pay for user error.

BL.


I agree with you, I just wanted to make sure you felt the same way if it went the other way. 

I don't care how bad the lanes are as long as it's fair for everyone.  Nothing worse than putting in money to pots and not having a fair chance. 
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Mighty Fish

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2014, 09:02:38 PM »
In the 1994 Florida state tournament in Orlando, my team bowled the first shift of the team event, and the lanes were EXTREMELY dry across the house. Two of my teammates with averages in the 180s didn't get near a 400 series, but we completed the series.

Some of us stuck around and had a few beers and watched the start of the next squad. And after most teams had bowled three or four frames, tournament director Bob Carr -- because of a number of complaints -- called the tournament to a halt. He then ordered the lanes to be dressed (because apparently they hadn't been oiled to begin with), and he not only allowed every team to re-start the series, he allowed practice balls before the re-start began.

Several teams on the first shift filed a written complaint that the following squad got special treatment and weren't forced to bowl on the ridiculous lane conditions that we competed on, but the complaint (and appeals) went nowhere. The ABC ruled that the tournament director wasn't breaking any rules and further, that he had the right to exercise his discretion in such a situation.

Fair or not, that's what happened.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 09:04:19 PM by Mighty Fish »
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bradl

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2014, 01:01:00 AM »
Quote from: Mighty Fish on February 28, 2014, 09:02:38 PM

Fair or not, that's what happened.

and therein lies the problem.

Fair or not, the tournament directors can not safely crown a 'champion' if  their victory is tainted by conditions that calls fair competition under scrutiny. It is things that that that compromise the integrity of the game, tournament, and sport. And why would someone want to put forth the money, time and effort to participate if they know that they are not going to get a fair shot like everybody else?

I'm not trying to stomp my feet or play sore loser here, but if they (tournament director, mechanic, manager) are called out on a problem and have owned up to it, they need to do everything in their power to correct it for those who were wronged and going forward for those coming in to bowl the next shift. Otherwise, they put the integrity of the game on the line, and it does not turn out good for them, especially if word gets out about what they did wrong.

BL.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2014, 05:47:15 AM »
Like it or not, those are the risks you take when you participate in multi squad and/or multi day tournaments. 

The thing you have to remember is most people running tournaments, unless it is on some kind of national level, are making very little money or are a volunteer, most bowling centers could care less if they have the tournament, and the guy running the lane machine at 8 o'clock on Saturday or Sunday morning is more than likely making about $9 an hour and is hung over. 

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Pinbuster

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Re: re-shooting a tourny
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2014, 07:11:17 AM »
I'm not going to go into if it was legal or not.

As far as fair, I believe it was only fair to offer to let the  squad rebowl.

Most tournaments try to offer the same condition for each squad even if that means later day squads get the left overs from the previous squad(s). That is the bowlers choice bowling in later day squads.

Anything else would be showing favoritism towards some squads.

Since they identified that the starting condition was not what they intended for the tournament then the fair thing would be to allow those that bowled on that condition the opportunity to bowl on what they had signed up for.
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