BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: ITZPS on January 10, 2015, 05:37:24 PM
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To start off, I already had a pretty good fit, I feel like fit is something I understand well. (r)eVolve from Rico and Gary Yamasaki got really deep into fit, and put some things in ways that tweaked my thinking a bit and mostly gave me a lot more information than I previously had. I refit myself and as comfortable as it was before, now it feels unnaturally good. Here is my before and after:
Previous:
4 5/16 x 4 3/8, MF - 3/8 rev, 1/8 left, RF - 3/8 rev, 5/8 right, thumb 0 any direction
New: 4 1/4 x 4 5/16, MF 5/8 rev, 3/8 left, RF - 5/8 rev, 3/8 right, thumb 1/8 fwd, 1/16 left.
Now my hand sits on the ball even better, it's in a lot better position. Extremely comfortable. Like Rico has said to me, feel is everything.
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AWESOME to hear! Throw it well
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It's funny how you're an experienced pro shop operator/driller and you still feel as if you can learn...not too many like you
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It's funny how you're an experienced pro shop operator/driller and you still feel as if you can learn...not too many like you
You know what's funny about that? The best pro shop experiences I've ever had have mostly been with 2 operators who both feel there is always room to learn and grow
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I dont go to know it all shops, those dont get any business in these parts anyways. Ric is right!
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I learn something new everyday and I feel those are the best days...the day you know it all and/or stop learning...quit
There is always something new we can learn
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My favorite bit of information was when learning car audio installation. The instructor said it's not about knowing all of the answers, it's about knowing who or where to find the answers. I think of it when dealing with so many things.
The book has been a great resource for fitting that is extremely helpful and always great to go back to.
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Thanks for the reminder to buy, guys!
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You know how to get ahold me (:
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Is there the non-proshop, for personal interest/reading version?
Scott
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It is actually designed for the experienced as well as the less than experienced with the intent if a 'bowler' wanted to educate themselves as well as the pro shop operator
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As someone with no experience fitting someone for a bowling ball I found it very easy to follow along with and literally use as a step by step guide. Great pictures as well to help show what you want vs not want.
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What is great about (r)eVolve and Head Games is that they're both written so well. I'm a writer, so maybe it appeals more to me or is more noticeable, but none of it is pretentious, and they use as few technical terms as possible, while the ones they do have to use are explained really well. I'm also a big concept guy, I feel like if someone can understand a concept or the fundamentals of how something functions, they can just about teach themselves, and that's what this offers. Plus there aren't fancy new complicated methods or anything, it's more or less, "here's the information, utilize it in your own way." It's also incredibly rich, there's zero fluff or filler.
The more I learn, the dumber I feel . . but I find it's important to not get too caught up in what you already know because it can start to make you closeminded and complacent.
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What does r evolve cover? Looking on the site, but didn't find much. Assume it is beyond fitting to include other aspects of proshop?
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It's 2-sided one side is fitting and the second side is ball motion/fitting with a dvd library of Rev rates and the School of Knowledge power point presentation
It offers many examples of fitting and layouts
We are updating the website so apologies
Email me at HYBowlingConcepts@yahoo.com with anymore questions and thanks!
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ITZPS,
YOur grip? What about your hand? what about your roll? that led to you deciding you needed to change?
At this time, have you actually rolled and scored over multiple sets and seen improvements in score or roll that pleased you
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Feeling things that were going on with my grip was the main issue. The angles of the fingers were allowing my thumb socket to slide forward and out of position, which was caused by trying to "dig in" because I didn't have enough reverse in my fingers to allow them to comfortably sit in the holes. To keep my thumb socket in the correct position, it was forcing my fingernails against the back sides of the holes or was taking a stronger grip to keep the pads of my fingers on the front sides of the holes. However, when I was doing that, like I said it was forcing my thumb socket up and out of position which tended to make me start squeezing when my hand started getting tired, which was partly because I could feel that my thumb being at 0 was still too much "reverse" if you get what I mean. This also told me my span was too long. Sometimes it takes a while for your hand to rebound from a bad fit, and although my last fit was great and what I needed at the time, my hand has apparently "recovered" to the point where I'm ready for the next step.
I will be drilling my first two balls tonight with the new fit. Being that I've been paying REALLY close attention to fit for a while now, I've been fiddling around with mine for the last couple months but didn't really feel the need to change it until recently when I was cleaning my game up and got to the point where it was evident that my hand/fit was where the major issue was at the moment. These are also some very subtle adjustments to dial it in, so I don't expect any real changes in roll, just improvements in accuracy, comfort, and stamina.
I DID drill my new fit into a junk ball to test it out and compare it to my old fit, however. It's really hard to tell on a fitting ball, so something I also do for customers is to drill the fit into an old junk ball, of which I keep several laying around for that purpose specifically. I had figured out the very specific failures or issues with my current fit, and it actually took drilling the new fit a couple times with an adjustment here or there to get it just right. I wanted to make sure I was holding the ball right or trying to hold it right before I made a change though. Sometimes people will come in and swear something is wrong with their fit when they're simply gripping it or holding it wrong, and I wanted to make absolutely certain I was doing it correctly before I made any changes. I'll bowl league with them for the first time tomorrow night, so I'll see what happens, but I'm already doing pretty good the way it is, I expect to just be better.
ITZPS,
YOur grip? What about your hand? what about your roll? that led to you deciding you needed to change?
At this time, have you actually rolled and scored over multiple sets and seen improvements in score or roll that pleased you
Regards,
Luckylefty
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The changes you made the common person could barely feel. You go about praising your "new" fit saying how comfortable it is and you haven't bowled with it yet? I guess I'm missing something.
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I changed my pitches about 8 years ago. I was having a problem getting a smooth release with less hitting/grabbing at the bottom. With a fairly long 4 3/4, 4 7/8 span
I had long used a traditional 1/4 reverse in my thumb and 1/4 tuck on my fingers. After reading what some good tour guys were doing with reverse finger pitches I opted to go 1/4 forward on the thumb and 1/4 away on the fingers. I was immediately able to get a more comfortable feeling of the ball in my palm, and accelerate at the bottom, without the grabbing.
One interesting thing to note is that by making the changes I did, I did not change the pitch relationship between the thumb and fingers. It changes the focus of the weight as it lays in my palm, shifting the weight more toward the pads.
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I'd say he made noticeable changes that most people would feel. Mine was pretty close and only changed my finger pitches from 0 to 1/8" away in both finger. I never thought you would notice something so small but it did wonders.
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I get the feeling that lucky lefty is questioning the legitimacy of ITZPS's post...am I wrong?
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No he asks lots of questions. Itsallaboutme maybe sceptical since the op hasn't tried the new grip much.
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I get inquisitive...it's 'tone'...
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I get inquisitive...it's 'tone'...
+1
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Toners going to tone.
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I'll stand by what I said in that the changes made are one's the common person could barely detect.
Kid, if you THINK the 1/8th was the answer it was, but it really wasn't.
He went about posting how great something is and all he did was drill it in a test ball. None of it matters til you pry it off your mitt.
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So I'm curious an 1/8" wouldn't matter? or have an effect?
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And I'm sorry I don't care the ability....anyone CAN FEEL 1/8"...that's an asinine statement
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When I did an 1/8 " away on both fingers from 0 it was a noticeable feel difference. It relieved stress on the fingers and relaxed my hand. Not sure how it was and wasn't the answer.
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You really think the average person that walks into a pro shop can feel an eighth in finger pitch? If you do you have been out of the shop too long.
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If you had stress on your hand at zero you needed to go more than an eighth
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Ya apparently I know nothing...I'm pretty sure I know a thing or two on fitting no matter where I'm at...I didn't get stupid overnite
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I didn't say anything about what you know. Apparently you have not been dealing with the average pro shop customer lately.
Lighten up Francis.
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What does the average or non average person have to do with any of this? No 1/8" worked great. The flexibility in those two fingers aren't horrible but 0 was two much. With my span and thumb pitch changing the fingers opened up the angles and as stated felt a lot better.
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The only thing I will say...I deal with bowlers of EVERY level EVERY day whether I own a shop or otherwise...I think I deal quite a diverse audience....but think what you want Alice
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Well, keep them people obsessing over those sixteenths so you can sell more books.
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So apparently you believe you know more than anyone else eh?
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Nope, just my fair share. But I'm not arrogant enough to tell someone that has a span a sixteenth different from what I would measure that it is wrong.
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I don't believe anyone said anyone was wrong but you...feel is individual and should be based on that...and if you don't believe a 1/16 or 1/8" is a big deal in fitting you are the one that is delusional...I don't know everything but I know quite a bit due to the many varying individuals I have fit and continue to fit and base my comments and writings off those experiences
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OK, I'm delusional and you are the expert because you wrote a book on a totally subjective subject.
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You're the one that chooses to discount 1-16-1/8" in feel...
It may be subjective but there are basis which apparently you choose to also discount
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I'll make you a deal...I'll send you a copy and you give us all your subjective review on it...how's that
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Send it. If I feel it's well written I'll pay for it.
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Just send it?
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I'm lost.
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I can't write a review until I read it.
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Nor can I send it to an address I don't know...PM me it
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Nope, just my fair share. But I'm not arrogant enough to tell someone that has a span a sixteenth different from what I would measure that it is wrong.
Got busy but in reference to this comment I wanted to say a big part of what is written talks about why you wouldn't change something if it seems wrong by text book means if it feels good to the bowler, the bowler is right. You will read more for your self but there is a lot of common sense involved that I think makes a lot of sense.
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I'll be ordering a copy soon. Ric produces a very readable product that is easy to understand,
But anytime you use a quote from Stripes, you win points in my book.
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When you work so closely with something for so long, subtle changes are easier to detect, and some weren't so subtle, not to mention there were several of them. I added 1/4 reverse on top of what I already had to my fingers, went from 1/8 left and 5/8 right in each respective finger to 3/8ths left and right. Span shortened 1/16, thumb went 1/8 forward and 1/16 left. The aggregate change was actually pretty substantial.
Drilled both balls and went out and threw several games last night. The biggest change in the fit is the fingers, now my hand is completely relaxed while being able to keep my finger pads in full contact with the front sides of the holes. I'm catching the ball a lot better at the bottom now. Before I'd lose one every so often which would cause me to over-grip the next one. Now that my thumb socket stays in position easier, I don't have the instinct to grab at the bottom to keep it from coming off too quick because I'm trying to dig in with the fingers to make sure I hit it at the bottom.
I have absolutely no reason to say something is good when it actually isn't, or say it matters when it doesn't. I've been paying really close attention to my fit for several months now, making notes about how it's coming off, how consistent I am, trying to track release patterns, etc. It wasn't like I just decided to make some changes, read the book, and ended up at these numbers. I don't think I'd have ever recommended putting 5/8 reverse in each finger for anyone let alone myself before, but that's where my hand told me they needed to be.
I also threw the balls with the new fit against a ball with the old fit. Like I said though, the old fit was still pretty darn good, I just would mis-hit it at the bottom sometimes and have a tendency to grab at the bottom occasionally. With the angle change seating my hand more properly, my consistency was up quite a bit. I'm the world's most boring 230 average bowler, most of the time it's a couple strikes, spare, couple more strikes, spare, couple more strikes, spare, sheet. Yesterday it was more of the same with the old fit, but when throwing balls with the new fit, the consistency was better, I threw 8, 9, 10 in a row several times, not just getting them to fall but being the result of consistently better shots. I experienced no change in speed, rev rate, tilt, or angle of rotation, but I didn't expect to. I just expected more consistency, comfort, and stamina, and that's what I got. I hope to get some videos Saturday or Sunday.
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Wow,
Take a day off or a week from a post and a lot happens out here!
As to my question to ITZPS I was curious if the book directed him to changes from some of its statements or illustrations, or pictures or if his redirected him. From his answer I felt he was discussing feel.
My quite a pissing match going on and surprise, ...no not really. I'll leave it at that.
I notice 1/16 difference in pitch but...well I am finicky like that..(I was finicky like that in golf also to a great advantage).
I am interested also to hear about results after a few times in actual competition.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS ITZPS, I often find my static span that feels perfect doesn't seem to work quite as good when actually bowling. So keep us apprised of your progress. Interested also to hear how the ideas in the book influenced your grip changes.
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I'm glad that it has worked for you so far. All I said was praising something before actually using it was a little premature.
Was the test last night for score or practice. And if you kept score while you practiced…..well that's a different topic.
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Automatic score machines keep score no matter what. Always nice to see 1/ for several frames of any game.
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Our publications ALL try to create viewing such things as fitting and ball motion/reaction in an open minded sense...too much is based solely on a persons view point which is ok but yo also realize there is more to both - perceptions vs reality is based on this
We've tried to offer easier ways to comprehend both entities with science along with pictures videos & testimonials...we're not trying to create conflict but debunking much of what is perception on an individual assumption...it works for one person it has to work for all...or 'it's not that big a deal' when missing a span by 1/16-1/8"...for bowlers to get better the professionals helping need to be smarter
Some believe what we're saying many don't and that's ok..I know this turned into an argument and unfortunately I'm quite passionate with what I do and who I teach...I've put a lot of time and energy into this...
I'm open-minded and try to see ALL angles or perspectives as well as opinions but I also know what's BS...and hype
Wity anything you do try to be open-minded...that's how we learn
There's always going to be conspiracy theorists...but not everything is a conspiracy
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I don't know if that lecture was directed at me or not. I asked a simple question, for score or practice? Big difference.
Kid, I'm very aware how automatic scorers work.
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My post was an attempt at offering an overview of what HYBC tries to do nothing more nothing less and sorry if you perceived it as a lecture...
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I thought we had been through that last night. I was trying to let that go.
I ask the practice question because I feel there is a big difference. I'm pretty sure Tiger isn't laying the sod over chips in his backyard.
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I thought he said for practice. My reply wasn't serious it just didn't have lol on the end of it.
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I have a peace offering. I said I would pay for the book if I felt it was well written. Instead I will write a check for the retail price of the book to a charity of your choice, regardless if I like it or not.
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Understood. Last night was practice, I never have scoring on when I'm practicing if I can help it, but I was paying attention to how many consecutive quality shots I was throwing, because that's something that's been an issue in both league scoring and practice. I have league tonight so I'll see how it goes, but usually league and practice go pretty similar for me. I'm pretty anal so I'm usually more of an ass practicing than I am during league haha.
I was getting out of the ball much more cleanly, and whether the scores follow or not, I don't know, they've already been pretty good lately, but I expect to be more consistent with my release. I have some footwork issues too that I need to get worked out, so that's next, but the FEEL of my fit is much better now. When you get it perfect, you just know!
I'm glad that it has worked for you so far. All I said was praising something before actually using it was a little premature.
Was the test last night for score or practice. And if you kept score while you practiced…..well that's a different topic.
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Actually we have a practice mode on our scorers where you can set up specific pins to drop repeatedly, shadow bowl, or first ball only.
Lucky, it's more the concepts or information. Something Ric and Gary do really well is help you understand concepts, and if you can understand the concept of something, that's when you can really learn about it and utilize it.
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Again,
ITZPS, if you would be so kind.... What are the concepts in the book that led you to deciding these changes would be helpful?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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It wasn't the concepts that led me to decide to make the changes, it was my hand positioning on the ball and the occasional release issues that led me to make the changes. The concepts and information in the book helped me understand better where to make them and really just helped reinforce that feel is what is most important. I wasn't previously comfortable with the idea of going 5/8ths reverse in the fingers, especially given that my hand and fingers are still very flexible, but that's what felt the best. I had already recognized that I had some issues that needed to be addressed, but before I read the book, I felt that the changes I felt I needed to make were too extreme and that I was most likely holding the ball the wrong way. The information in the book cleared it all up, and made some great points, so I ended up addressing all the right things and the first time I put my hand in the finished fit, I knew that was it.
As for specifics, if you give Rico your address and send him a payment, I'm sure he would be happy to send all that information your way ;)
Again,
ITZPS, if you would be so kind.... What are the concepts in the book that led you to deciding these changes would be helpful?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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ITZPS,
Don't let this fool get you down. Not all are gifted or have the special friends that he does. Pat yourself on the back for bettering yourself and your pro shop. Not every ball driller understands every concept and there are times where different terminology helps. I have been drilling for 18 years and have been certified by a pro shop school, but to some that would be just a piece of paper. I consider myself quite good at what I do and the service I provide. I purchased (r)eVolve when it was first released and it is quite well written. Is it the bible of ball fitting? No, but it is a good guide and offers information that allows one to think outside the box as to cookie cutter fitting. I have applied some of the information in my fitting style and definately have seen improvement in my customers game.
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For starters...I'm not exactly sure where you itsallaboutyou got lost but my comments were not directed to you...they were an over view...my favorite charity is me and my well being, why would you think your offer is, honorable? I give enough to charity...
Secondly, there are certain individuals I found on here that will second guess and question anything & everything that contradicts what they think or believe...it's being shawn currently no matter the answers giving as well as support...lucky lefty would NEVER pay for anything why would he?
Bowlers + free = expectations
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HHaHaHaHaHaHaHa.....
Too funny. I pay for things all the time. Especially if I perceive value. Really one of the hysterical statements of the new millennium. Lessons, balls....my pro shop appreciates me I assure you, as do many other bowling businesses that have received my money.
I was asking for sort of a review. Searching for how the book influenced his decision making. Not unusual. I read reviews at Amazon before I buy any book. It is a good practice.
As to how? when? why? I buy. I'll make that decision of my own volition. Thank you.
Any more feedback on the book I am open minded and willing to learn listen as to it's value.
I currently own the well established textbook on ball drilling Bill Taylor's definitive book and paid a pretty penny to meet the likeable and clearly quite bright guru and take a seminar from him in the past. (before his passing obviously).
Interested to see if others find this new book to possibly be the "New Bible".
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Taylor's book was written over 40 yrs ago and my father attended one of his first seminars pertaining to it..our book deals with today not 40 years ago...and it has immeasurable more information & value than his did/does...the book addresses today's issue with fitting (static vs dynamic) layoyts & ball motion/reaction in an extremely literal sense...and btw gurus are generally self titled
We are used to naysayers..run across them frequently they are usually the ones that believe nothing has changed in 40 yrs...
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Dude, keep your book. You would get a check from me out of my cold, dead hands. When you post on a website to promote your product you may want to try not to be such a pompous ass.
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How is he being a pompous ass? All I see in this thread is baseless criticism and shots fired by others. Doesn't he have a right to defend himself and the product? Not sure how people who haven't read the book can criticize it, and I'm not sure why he's not allowed to respond in kind.
I'm also not sure when the truth isn't the truth. If Michael Jordan said he was the greatest basketball player of all time, would that be pompous or arrogant? No, it would just be the truth, if he said otherwise to be modest, he'd just be lying. This book represents decades worth of knowledge and experience and is absolutely packed full of information. After reading it, I personally think he's selling it too cheap, and if someone came into my shop, asked for a lesson and told me if they thought I did a good job that they would write a check to the charity of my choice, I think I'd be too stunned to speak.
Dude, keep your book. You would get a check from me out of my cold, dead hands. When you post on a website to promote your product you may want to try not to be such a pompous ass.
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ANYWAY, I bowled league last night, and it didn't go as smoothly as I'd hoped, but as I identified the problems, they made sense. With the old fit, I'd been keeping my thumbhole pretty tight, but with the new angles in my thumb, it was just causing me to hang up at the release, I had quite a bit of drag just holding the ball and inserting and removing my thumb. I also discovered I'd been gripping harder than I thought, and again, the new angles weren't allowing me to get away with it. Once I made the adjustments, I had a few oops shots here and there, but the ones I got through correctly were much better than I've been throwing recently.
Also confirmed that some of my release issues are reaction related. I've never gotten along with the shot at this house, never felt comfortable. From 1-7 it's dry, on 8-9-10 it steps up pretty sharply, and then is completely flat from 11-11, so it makes it feel like the heaviest volume on the lane is right in the middle of the track. Most shots thrown cleanly into the track are very lazy and soft on the backend, so you have to make sure you catch it at the bottom, but it's a lighter volume so if you move right you still get over/under in addition to pretty early reads. I still shot 700, but a better test will be tomorrow at the other house, the reaction is better and more consistent even though the shot is tighter.
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ITZPS Pots calling kettles black never see it. Because they act a certain way is obviously no reason for someone to reply in the same way. That is unheard of....
Nice bowling.
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I'm not a pompous ass I'm a person that takes pride in his works and unfortunately has to defend it and honestly will...and as you can tell so will others
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Mr Hamlin offered to send me the book if I'd write a review. I offered to write a check as a peace offering because the discussion turned a little heated the other evening. Then I got lectured and had my honor questioned.
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I didn't see a lecture, at least not directed at you. Gotta admit the peace offering thing was a little heavy handed though . .
Mr Hamlin offered to send me the book if I'd write a review. I offered to write a check as a peace offering because the discussion turned a little heated the other evening. Then I got lectured and had my honor questioned.
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Tone and intent have to be based off of what is read that doesn't always reflect what is the persons actual intent. That is the fun world of internet communication.
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We exist in an entity that is bowling and knowledge is never rewarded if it disagrees with another's opinion even if that opinion is based in an antiquated thoughts...there are numerous individuals in this industry that I wouldn't share a bite with but I respect their knowledge & experiences...too bad that is never a mutual trait
I am not pompous I am confident...in my knowledge and our writings...