BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on October 25, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
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Ok, I want to try to generate some layouts with this method. All I need to know is your angle of rotation, and any angle you play on any shot. Could be an angle you play on a house shot, broken down house shot, Shark pattern, Main Street, Stone Street, US Open, don't care. Just think of the line you play and what angle you estimate it at, and I'll give you a dual angle sum to work from and you tell me if it's realistic. Even if you change your angle of rotation on different shots, just say like the US Open, tell me what your angle of rotation is and what angle you throw at (if straight at the headpin from the dead center of the lane is 0, and from one side of the foul line to the other is 90). I'm really hoping I can generate a layout for you without needing to know anything else, that's the point.
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okay on the THS here:
my Rotation: 65 degrees (estimated from video using the overlay graphic)
As for angle I'll say about 4 degrees
I stand about 25 and shoot about10-12 at the arrows
heres a video if it helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lc8wdUMmKyw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lc8wdUMmKyw)
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Thanks! I'd say the angle is closer to 10 degrees, but I'll calculate it both ways just for the hell of it. So here's the deal, you base the ball choice on your speed, revs, and lane condition. This definitely won't work if you pick a ball that's either too strong or too weak for you.
Your rotation is 65 degrees, let's round your 4 degree angle to 5, for a total of 70. Going into my calculator, that gets me to an ideal dual angle sum of 120. That can be applied any way you want it, you could go 90-30, 60-60, etc. The ratio and pin distance is up to you also depending on what shot shape you want. Does a dual angle sum of 120 sound accurate or at the very least reasonable to work from?
I've figured out it's definitely a "sweet spot" calculation, it doesn't apply if you go with a ball too weak or too strong for you or the condition. If you're playing your A game, you pick out a benchmark ball, and I give you an angle sum of 120 to work from, is that anywhere close?
I'm finding it hard to explain clearly, because I've heard "well what about condition? ball speed? rev rate?" I'd factor all of that into ball choice and surface, because I really don't see the point of buying a ball that doesn't fit what you want and trying to drill it to fit you. If you buy a ball that fits you and fits the condition, you SHOULD be able to use this method to get an ideal dual angle sum based on what angles you are playing or intend to play with the ball, because everybody has a reason for buying a ball, whether it's to play deeper, straighter, through carrydown, etc. Considering that you pick the right ball, I haven't been able to poke a hole in this method yet, but lol that's why I'm asking people here . .
okay on the THS here:
my Rotation: 65 degrees (estimated from video using the overlay graphic)
As for angle I'll say about 4 degrees
I stand about 25 and shoot about10-12 at the arrows
heres a video if it helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lc8wdUMmKyw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lc8wdUMmKyw)
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And then again this whole thing could be overcomplicating something that's already involved, or it could just be completely superfluous.
Oh and the 10 degree calculation would be 65+10 (your angle of rotation and laneplay or release angle) for 75. Based off the mean or middle of the recommended dual angle range, which is 95, 95-75=20. Now because 75 degrees isn't much of an angle for the ball to overcome, you need to go with a less aggressive layout, so if your total number is UNDER 95, you ADD the difference to 95, which in this case makes it 115. If your angle is greater than 95, then you subtract the difference from 95 to get a more aggressive layout. So for a 65 degree angle of rotation and a 10 degree release angle, my calculation would give you an ideal dual angle sum of 115, which again can be divvied up any way you want it.
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Does a dual angle sum of 120 sound accurate or at the very least reasonable to work from
Well not a expert on the DA stuff. (hopefully you'll get some more knowledgeable people to test on)
But the 3 balls I have now the sum ranges from 125 to 135
90 X 4" X 40
90 X 4" X 45
90 X 4" X 35
So 120 seems close.
I was told my Dual Angle Sweet Spot looked to be around Sweet Spot 90* +/-20,
I estimated it at a 100 +/-10
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Fair enough, thanks!
Does a dual angle sum of 120 sound accurate or at the very least reasonable to work from
Well not a expert on the DA stuff. (hopefully you'll get some more knowledgeable people to test on)
But the 3 balls I have now the sum ranges from 125 to 135
90 X 4" X 40
90 X 4" X 45
90 X 4" X 35
So 120 seems close.
I was told my Dual Angle Sweet Spot looked to be around Sweet Spot 90* +/-20,
I estimated it at a 100 +/-10
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How are you calculating release angle? Seems to me you are guessing at numbers. For your whole system to work this needs to be a measurement and not a random number. In your other thread you estimate you playing 20-7 as 45 degrees. To play that you are probably setting the ball down around 27. So your balls is 20 inches vertical in 42 or 43 feet horizontal. Help a brotha out here.
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Yeah, right now I'm just guessing and working out the concept before I actually try to do the math on working out the angle. Lol you're not missing anything, I'm just apparently not that great at estimating angles on the lane . . and I also have to figure out at what distance to calculate the angle at. 20 at release to 7 at 35 feet would be a different angle than 20-7 at 40 or 45 feet.
How are you calculating release angle? Seems to me you are guessing at numbers. For your whole system to work this needs to be a measurement and not a random number. In your other thread you estimate you playing 20-7 as 45 degrees. To play that you are probably setting the ball down around 27. So your balls is 20 inches vertical in 42 or 43 feet horizontal. Help a brotha out here.
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And it may or may not even be worth anything, I just saw what I thought could be a correlation and am working through the logistics, but I AM seeing now that the release angles are going to be a lot smaller than I thought they'd be. Playing a 45 degree angle would be pretty ridiculous and unneccesary . .
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But it is relevant in some way, if your angle of rotation is relevant, then the angle you play on the lane is relevant. There just may not be as direct of a correlation as I'd thought at first. It's seems to be similar to the dual angle sweet spot calculation, just not quite as involved, and seeing as how this only considers angles, I might have to do some experimenting there too.
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At some point you hit the law of diminishing returns. This stuff is WAY beyond that point.
If you've already got 2 dogs take them for a walk. Or teach them how to ride a skateboard.
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True . .
At some point you hit the law of diminishing returns. This stuff is WAY beyond that point.
If you've already got 2 dogs take them for a walk. Or teach them how to ride a skateboard.
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They are relavant but not with what you are trying to do. Release angle is key. Angle on the lane isn't a constant. All of the bowlers other stats plus the lane condition plus the ball would have to ba calculated into the equation.
Its a nice idea.
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Release angle of rotation I get.
Straight up 9 on a shot does that equal a 0 initial angle of lane play?
THe shot I am playing at the safe zone for not hanging and leaving a washout is 12 to 9 up to 14 to 9.
Almost anything steeper on the left is a flat 7. IS that the angle you are talking about?
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS sorry for starting behind the rest of the discussion. 4 inch pin to pap in most cases is too much flare and midlane except for the weakest of cores at this house
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To the Original poster Gizmo....please explain?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I posted a topic discussing the specifics, here it is: http://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/need-some-technical-minds-to-weigh-in-the-release-angle-t298431.0.html
To the Original poster Gizmo....please explain?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I considered that too, but the bowlers stats should go into ball selection, not this . . Angle of rotation doesn't necessarily have to be constant, neither do speed, revs, etc. You drill different balls for different things on different shots, but if you also base layouts on what part of the lane you're going to be playing too, right?
If you take a ball, any ball, and decide to drill it for use on any shot, you'd drill it different if you intend to play straight up than you would if you decided to play deep, right? But even take Shark or Badger, using the same ball, if you were going to play 15-13, you'd drill that ball different than you would if you intended to play 20-13, right? Even if you drilled a different ball you'd still be drilling it more aggressive the deeper you got.
If I played straight up at the house I bowl at, I'd have to drill a Vibe, or Misfit or something, and it would be fairly weak. If I decided to play 3rd arrow, I'd definitely have to ball up to something like a Byte or Primal Rage, but I'd also have to go more aggressive with the layout too. But that's what makes this so simple, if you base ball choice off lane condition and your specs, and the layout on your angles, I just haven't seen how it doesn't apply.
They are relavant but not with what you are trying to do. Release angle is key. Angle on the lane isn't a constant. All of the bowlers other stats plus the lane condition plus the ball would have to ba calculated into the equation.
Its a nice idea.
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I also did some research on the dual angle "sweet spot," and I'm honestly not sure that I like it that much. It's a bunch of information and calculation and considers too many variables only to get you a really wide range of options that still leaves everything completely up to you. I went through it a couple times and found myself right back where I started in the first place, with a lot of decisions to make.
This still leaves you with about the same amount of decisions, but a tenth of the process, but it honestly does apply and work AND it locks down the angle sum to a much closer range than the sweet spot does. Everybody factors in whether they're going to be playing straight up or deep into their layout and ball choice, and that's exactly what this is, it's just a way to be more accurate. I know where to put the fingers to get a ball to do what I want it to do without using the dual angle, it's just simply more accurate.
You're not going to play 2nd arrow with the same ball you play 4th arrow from unless several things change, but then you've significantly changed the parameters of everything to begin with. If you throw the ball 17 mph, 350 revs, 40 degree angle of rotation and 10 degree axis tilt from 2nd arrow, by the time you're forced into 4th arrow, if you're using the same ball, the lanes have gotten drier AND you've changed a lot of that stuff. That also however doesn't mean that another ball with a different drilling wouldn't be better suited for where you're playing now.
At the same time, I'm old school, I'd RATHER use the same ball all day long no matter what I have to do to it or make it do. HOWEVER, if we're talking conceptually only considering ideal situations, I can't poke a hole in this and have a reasonable explaination for every question, concern, or criticism.
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Random question. Are you able to turn off this type of thinking off as a bowler?
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Getting better, but by and large it's been difficult. Sometimes it's hurt, and sometimes it's helped. I'm largely analytical for customers, but for myself, give me a plastic ball and I'd like my chances from anywhere you tell me to play. I think bowling is more about intuition and laneplay than it is about numbers, BUT my mind still runs wild looking at things and watching everybody else when it comes to that. I look at pinspots, I look at the approaches and just across the foul line for debris, I watch every shot of every other bowler on the pair and compare it to their previous shot to watch how the lanes are transitioning, I pay attention to THEIR mental game to see if there's any subtle ways I can get inside their head . .
I'm pretty sure I get what your angle is on this, and the answer is that yes, sometimes I'm so mental that I can't let go of the ball because I'm constantly calculating and know EXACTLY how and where I want to throw every single ball, and I don't think even EARL the robot could do what I try to do on every shot.
Rick Benoit describes it as either thinking in colors or black and white. He says bowlers who think in colors generally aren't as good as those who think in black and white. Pete Weber for example thinks in black and white. He knows what he needs to do and just makes his best shot. Chris Barnes thinks in colors, though he's been the most successful at overcoming it. All that really means is that colorful thinkers try to consider too much and do too much, or what's going on in their head can negatively effect what happens. But yes, I'm a mental case trying to bowl myself . .
Random question. Are you able to turn off this type of thinking off as a bowler?
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I see that you get it. To think like this as a bowler you have to be able to execute at a CB level to take advantage of this type of knowledge. Pretty much everyone except him that is a great bowler is all feel and touch. Not too many young guys that I deal with get that. They are always looking for the magic reaction. They look at me cross eyed when I tell them that sometimes you just have to bowl.
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Gizmo?> Is that part of this thread?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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It's related, but no it's a different topic in the misc bowling forum, still looks like it's on the first page. I explain what it's all about in the other topic, and then this was for people to post some specs and me to generate some layouts and see how close they are.
Gizmo?> Is that part of this thread?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Yeah . . I HATE listening to college bowlers talk to each other. "Well, I moved 2 and 1 left," or "I went 3 and 2 left." Ok, I get that you're all trying to speak the same language so you can explain to your teammate what the lanes are doing better than just saying, "Ball was a little jumpy last shot, so I went a little deeper and tightened it up a tad," but was it the CORRECT move? If you don't know how to read ball reaction well enough to know whether it was the ball/lane's fault or something that you did, saying that may or may not be relevant. That's why I just pay attention myself, because if a teammate comes back and says the ball jumped so they moved, but they got slow, overhit it, or missed by an arrow, I'm going to totally disregard it.
I'm a feel bowler myself, I couldn't tell you what boards I'm aiming at. I just watch the reaction I get, and know what kind of shape I need, and work from there. I think that's why I "get away with it," so to speak. Yeah I'm mental, but it's not with numbers personally. If I have a customer that's a math junkie, I want to be capable of being as technical as they want to get, but sometimes you can have too much information or be too prepared. Give me a ball, some shoes, and I'll go figure it out from there. If I go into it with the idea that I need to play outside, inside, early and rolly, skid/snap, etc, and then I get on the lane and it's not working out, well then I've got a problem. Lol but I'll spend a long time preparing and thinking about not being too prepared . .
I see that you get it. To think like this as a bowler you have to be able to execute at a CB level to take advantage of this type of knowledge. Pretty much everyone except him that is a great bowler is all feel and touch. Not too many young guys that I deal with get that. They are always looking for the magic reaction. They look at me cross eyed when I tell them that sometimes you just have to bowl.