Post by: Brickguy221 on June 11, 2009, 12:49:26 PM
I know of two local bowlers that average in the 225-235 range that use reverse finger pitch and they have no finger or hand stiffness. One uses 3/8 reverse in both fingers and the other uses 3/8 reverse on MF and 1/2 reverse on the RF.
They both say they get better lift-leverage on the ball with reverse finger pitch.
My question is .... Is this is true for those of you that might use reverse finger pitch but don't have any finger or hand stiffness?
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 6/11/2009 8:51 PM
Post by: dave300 on June 11, 2009, 09:10:41 PM
Post by: tburky on June 11, 2009, 09:12:59 PM
Post by: Mike Austin on June 11, 2009, 09:20:52 PM
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Post by: JessN16 on June 12, 2009, 03:00:09 AM
Jess
Post by: on June 12, 2009, 04:02:12 AM
Also, the type of finger insert used has a bearing. For example, if you use the power lifts (instead of ovals) they bring your finger tip back forward a little so your finger hole pitches should compensate for that. I start with 1/4 reverse in the fingers, but after adding the power lift inserts it's closer to 1/8 reverse, which is what I really want. Make sense?
When it's all said and done everyone's hand and preferences are a little different. The more reverse I put (with my span), the more grip pressure I need, which I don't want. Especially with my thumb pitches. It's just a preference, so you may have to experiment a little, but only if you need to. If it's not broke don't fix it.
--------------------
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Edited on 6/12/2009 4:07 AM
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 12, 2009, 12:02:02 PM
quote:
When it's all said and done everyone's hand and preferences are a little different. The more reverse I put (with my span), the more grip pressure I need, which I don't want. Especially with my thumb pitches. It's just a preference, so you may have to experiment a little, but only if you need to. If it's not broke don't fix it.
The grip pressure is what I worry about with reverse finger pitch. I have 1/4 reverse and 0 lateral on thumb and just finished trying 1/8 reverse on thumb and the less reverse just doesn't work for me. Even tried reducing the span with the less thumb reverse pitch and that didn't help either. So to sum it up, I fear I may be stuck on 1/4 reverse in thumb and if going to reverse in fingers will cause me to squeeze or not.
Anyhow, I have a Storm Triple X Extreme that I never use, so I am going to try reverse in fingers on it and see what happens. In looking at my hand, my driller suggests 3/8 reverse MF and 1/2 reverse RF and since my span is ok with my current grip, he is going to lengthen the span a bit to compensate for the increased finger pitch.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 6/12/2009 12:10 PM
Post by: Smash49 on June 12, 2009, 12:07:39 PM
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: CPA on June 15, 2009, 12:07:37 PM
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USBC Silver Level Coach
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 15, 2009, 11:20:45 PM
I left my Playmaker in the pro Shop to plug fingers and was going to add the same reverse to it, but now having second thoughts after a disasterous day with the Triple X Extreme and may go 1/4 & 3/8 in place of the 3/8 & 1/2 on the Triple X Extreme. I just wonder if my thumb may have been coming out fast on the Triple X Extreme, thus causing me some problems because I just couldn't seem to get anything on the ball??? The thumb on the Playmaker I left to get fingers plugged has 1/8 less reverse and 1/16 left lateral. That's another reason I am thinking about reducing the reverse finger pitch 1/8.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 6/15/2009 11:22 PM
Post by: Smash49 on June 16, 2009, 01:04:12 PM
Did you change the thumb pitch also? You need to do that otherwise you are probably dropping the ball. If you still have the thumb reversed for the old drilling you are most likely falling out. Take a paper cup and hold it by the rim, then spread your fingers and thumb so they are reverse and you can see the effect.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: ccrider on June 16, 2009, 01:19:26 PM
quote:
I know that many people use reverse finger pitch because of stiffness in their fingers, hand, etc. With that being said, why do some bowlers use reverse finger pitch when they have no stiffness in their fingers, hand etc.
I know of two local bowlers that average in the 225-235 range that use reverse finger pitch and they have no finger or hand stiffness. One uses 3/8 reverse in both fingers and the other uses 3/8 reverse on MF and 1/2 reverse on the RF.
They both say they get better lift-leverage on the ball with reverse finger pitch.
My question is .... Is this is true for those of you that might use reverse finger pitch but don't have any finger or hand stiffness?
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 6/11/2009 8:51 PM
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Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 16, 2009, 01:29:12 PM
Reverse for the thumb points away from the center of the grip!
Forward the opposite!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I like 0 finger pitch! With powerlifts!
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 16, 2009, 04:10:34 PM
quote:
Brick
Did you change the thumb pitch also? You need to do that otherwise you are probably dropping the ball. If you still have the thumb reversed for the old drilling you are most likely falling out. Take a paper cup and hold it by the rim, then spread your fingers and thumb so they are reverse and you can see the effect.
Smash, I think you are right. I asked the driller about reducing the reverse thumb pitch when I started experimenting with the reverse finger pitch and he said not to change it as it wouldn't matter. Well, I thought to myself at the time he is wrong but I'll try the Storm ball and see and the results were as described in my post of earlier today. Since I had a problem with it, I left my Playmaker with 1/8 less reverse thumb pitch in the pro shop yesterday and told him to plug fingers.
Today, I had him drill it with 1/16 less span and 1/8 less reverse finger pitch along with the 1/8 less reverse thumb pitch than the Storm ball and WOW, what a difference it made. That ball has about 150 games or more on it and it worked better than when it was NIB. I was able to free up my swing with less squeeze (I am a bit of a squeezer....always have been), had more revs and better leverage at release.
To sum it up, my Triple X Extreme Test grip was 1/4 reverse thumb pitch, 4 1/4 c-c span and 3/8 reverse MF & 1/2 Reverse RF pitch.
The Playmaker that came off my hand smoother with more revs and way better performance had 1/8 reverse thumb pitch, 4 3/16 c-c span and 1/4 reverse MF & 3/8 reverse RF pitch.
When I left today I left my Gamebreaker in the shop and told him to change it to the same as the Playmaker. "IF" he drills it right and a match to my Playmaker, and it works as well as the Playmaker, then I may have found a better workable grip that I have been searching for this summer. Keeping my fingers crossed here.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Smash49 on June 16, 2009, 04:37:52 PM
The grip should be either // / , // | or \\ \. If the grip is this way // \ you will drop the ball. If it is \\ / you will squeeze the ball. If the ball is || \ you may hang up in the fingers.
Smash49
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Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 16, 2009, 08:15:05 PM
quote:
Brick I was wondering. 1/2 in the ring is quite a bit. If you have too much you will get nothing on the ball. The thumb pitch is a big deal because it has to come out on time. If you come out early you will drop the ball and have nothing on it
Smash after my terrible experience with the Storm ball Monday and my way-way better experience with the Playmaker with different pitches today today, I have to agree with you here. After today, even though the 1/2 ring Monday may have been a factor, I think the thumb pitch was the major culprit. I do know that I was getting very little on the ball Monday and today with the different pitches, I seemed to be getting enough on the ball.
Anxious to pick up my Gamebreaker Thursday and see what it does. The pitches and span is supposed to match the Playmaker I threw today and hopefull the driller gets it right as he is for what ever reason not too accurate on the span anymore. Gets pitches perfect but not the span. I made him let me check the span today before he drilled it. I had him adjust it a wee bit and drill it and it came out perfect.
If the Gamebreaker comes off my hand as well as the Playmaker did today, then I am on the right track. I'm anxious to get this issue resolved as I have 3 NIB balls sitting in the closet to drill plus plug and redrill one in my bag.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: JustRico on June 16, 2009, 08:54:47 PM
If you drill a hole at 0 'pitch' into a round object, the farther you move the hole from the starting point, the more angle is created, eventhough it may still be drilled towards the center of the object. So if you drill a hole at 0 pitch and have a 4" span, how much angle is created compared to a 5" span from hole to hole?
Too much is based upon the pitch and not the angle. If you have a 5" span and have 1/2" away or reverse in the fingers, the pads will more than likely lay flatter in the holes, irregardless of flexibility.
As Lane so eloquintly borrowed from me, Span Dictates Pitch, not the opposite. Make sure you have the correct starting span and then adjusting pitch to acquire the proper feel. What is right for one will not or more than likely not be the same for another. Merely having an excessive amount of away or reverse pitch in the fingers does not automatically mean you need less reverse pitch in the thumb. It all depends on what the hand dictates.
When dealing with lateral pitches between the finger and thumbs, conflicting pitches can hamper release ease. If you have an excessive amount of right lateral in the fingers and left lateral in the thumb, it can create a cork screw effect at the release or the angles are fighting themselves or against each other.
And finger laterals have lesser affect on overall release than most think. It is more comfort than performance.
Pitch with the proper span allows the bowling ball to stay on the bowlers hand and allows it to release and/or clear at the correct or proper point in the release.
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Formerly BrunsRico
As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"
Post by: Smash49 on June 16, 2009, 09:28:55 PM
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: Mike Austin on June 16, 2009, 10:51:27 PM
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Post by: Smash49 on June 17, 2009, 12:51:48 PM
I have seen people with 3/4 and 7/8 reverse in the fingers. Absolutely no flexibility in the fingers at all. We had one lady a few years back with a finger at a 45 degree angle. Everyone's hand is different and you have to drill what you see. Without seeing the bowlers hand I really cannot make anything other than general recommendation statements. There are never any cut and dry, cast in stone anything without actually being there.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: Mike Austin on June 17, 2009, 09:12:47 PM
I drilled one guy's middle finger at 1 1/4 reverse. He was an ex baseball catcher in the minors, ex boxer for money, ex brick mason, and who knows what else, this guy's hand was terrible. Yikes...
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 18, 2009, 07:58:59 AM
Comments
The old Bill Taylor
or standard was 64 degrees....this was based on the 4 1/8 span = 0 forward/ reverse thumb table....For the average flexibility thumb. Adjustments to maintain the 64 degree angle(between the body of the hand(palm) and the thumb angle) were made by 1/16 reverse for every 1/8 lengthening in span. Also adjustments made for a shortened span were also done by 1/16 increments forward for every 1/8 shortening.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Bill Tays game or and he does recommend bowlers adjust more forward from these tables if they can(ie flexibility). If they have less than average flexibility they adjust and open up the 64 degree angle.
Questions:
1. For smash...what is the effect you believe of the 3/8 3/8 lateral split in lateral pitches and what should they be? WHY?
2. For Smash/Rico.... all this // \ ?????? Is that referring to the lateral pitches of the fingers versus the lateral pttch of the thumb? Are you saying they should be in similar directions?? Thumb finger????
3. For smash....and others....are you saying that if one adds more lateral one should move the thumb more forward thus preserving the same original angles that one started with when they might have been 0 forward reverse on the fingers and 1/4 reverse on thumb.....Sort of this....if now 1/4 reverse on fingers then 0 forward reverse on the thumb?
Thank you...
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Smash49 on June 18, 2009, 02:33:53 PM
The Lateral pitches in the fingers do a couple things. Comfort is one thing that laterals do. Many people have fingers that are bent or angled. Proper lateral pitch eliminates pressure and rubbing. 3/8 , 3/8 you may see quite often and is used as a generic setting. This many times is not the correct measurement. A second thing lateral pitches do is keep the finger holes from meeting at the bottom of the bridge. If the fingers are straight I will start with a 1/4 left middle finger and 5/8 right ring finger. This is depending on the size of the hand and the conditions of the fingers ie... jammed, bent, damaged, smaller, larger I can adjust as needed.
For Smash/Rico.... all this // \ ?????? Is that referring to the lateral pitches of the fingers versus the lateral pttch of the thumb? Are you saying they should be in similar directions?? Thumb finger????
Fingers and thumb pitches are independent of each other but generally if they are away from each other you will drop the ball. If they are pointed inward toward each other you will most likely squeeze the ball. The // \ you are seeing is for reverse in the fingers and thumb only it has nothing to do with laterals. Unfortunately it is hard to draw on this forum.
For smash....and others....are you saying that if one adds more lateral one should move the thumb more forward thus preserving the same original angles that one started with when they might have been 0 forward reverse on the fingers and 1/4 reverse on thumb.....Sort of this....if now 1/4 reverse on fingers then 0 forward reverse on the thumb?
I use laterals in the fingers for comfort and to keep the pressure off the joints and put the feel back onto the pads of the finger. As for lateral in the thumb this is set to help come out of the ball cleanly. The thumb lateral depends on the side to side flexibility of the thumb. It depends on how much inward the thumb maybe moved toward the palm. Rarely do I ever drill right lateral in the thumb.
Even though the fingers and thumb are independent, if you move one forward or reverse you should also adjust the other as needed.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 18, 2009, 08:57:32 PM
First let me say, contrary to my beliefs prior to now, reverse finger pitch does indeed create more lift/leverage and revs as well as more pin action, at least it does for me. I was always under the impression ever since I began bowling in the late 1960's that a person had to have 0 F-R finger pitch with power lift grips or even forward finger pitch for maximum lift-leverage-etc....and maybe for some people it does, but I have found it doesn't for me. I have found thru my testing the past 10 days or so that reverse finger pitch does those things for me as it puts the ball on the pad of my fingers, thus giving me better feel and control of the ball, even allowing last split second adjustments at the line when something went wrong in my approach and still getting the ball to the pocket with success.
For anyone interested, here is what has taken place...
I formerly had a total span of 4 7/17 x 4 1/2
Now it is .....................4 5/16 x 4 5/16
Thumb was 1/4 reverse and 0 lateral
Thumb now 1/8 reverse and 1/16 out lateral
Finger pitches were 0 F-R on MF and sometimes 0 on RF and sometimes 1/8 R on RF with power lift grips
Finger pitches are now 1/4 reverse on MF and 3/8 reverse on RF with oval grips
Before arriving at my final pitches above, I tried 3/8 R MF and 1/2 R RF with 1/4 R thumb. Couldn't get anything on the ball and then thought maybe the ball was coming off thumb too fast. Maybe had I just shortened the span a bit and reduced reverse thumb pitch a bit, the more reverse might have worked, I don't know. I just know that with the new grip listed above this paragraph, that I am coming out of the ball better than I have the last 3-4 years. Not saying this is my final grip as I may have to make a tiny adjustment or so, but it appears to be very close to what will work for me....Now if I can just get my mechanics straightened out.....
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: JustRico on June 18, 2009, 09:17:08 PM
When the fingers are going in one direction and the thumb lateral is going in the opposite, they are fighting each other.
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Formerly BrunsRico
As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"
Post by: Smash49 on June 18, 2009, 10:38:56 PM
In the sport of bowling research is going on constantly. A lot of the old ways of doing things are being put to the test. Some are right and some are not. It's funny when you hear some of them being talked about on the old PBA broadcast.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 18, 2009, 11:48:55 PM
quote:
If lateral pitches in the finger and thumb are conflicting, you will not drop the ball, you will more than likely cork screw it into the lane or create unneccessary callousing. It will also hinder the release or make inconsistan.
When the fingers are going in one direction and the thumb lateral is going in the opposite, they are fighting each other.
????????????????????????????
Ric, not sure if you were refering to my post or just making a statement, but if refering to my post, where I said 3/8 R MF...1/2 R RF....that meant 3/8 reverse Middle Finger....1/2 reverse Ring Finger.....etc and not right lateral. I maybe should have been more specifiic, but since the topic is about reverse finger pitch, I figured everyone knew what I ment.
If you were refering to something else or just making a statement, then ignore what I just said here.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 19, 2009, 12:54:02 AM
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: JustRico on June 19, 2009, 07:51:10 AM
You sir are fine!
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Formerly BrunsRico
As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 19, 2009, 07:52:46 AM
He had his fingers near 0 forward reverse and had gone to a bit of forward in his thumb on a like 4 5/8 span....(64 degree angle equals 3/16 reverse).
Say he was 3/16 forward.
When I met him he amazed me in his accuracy and number of 279 games and 700 series night after night in league. I don't know much but I knew he was bellyaching about being beaten in pot games by no thumbers who were all over the alley etc and their "300 games on cake"! I mentioned well....I think your thumb finger release separation looks to be much less than theirs and less than other bowlers who are creating area....you are creating virtually none!
Since then he is back to a very typical rate of 300 games and 800 series for him which is quite high! His thumb reverse I believe is 1/16 or 1/8 his "area" is up dramatically. He continues to dominate in our area in tough tournament conditions and is pretty well known nationally.
He still talks about that "small" change and what it means to his enjoyment of the game!
I love watching his 300 games now instead of his screw job "279s".
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS note the timing between thumb finger is very important...Thumb dramatically first creates area!
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 23, 2009, 08:25:25 AM
Regards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: LordWalrus on June 23, 2009, 09:06:42 AM
quote:
I thought this now dead post was interesting...
Yeah. Me too. Learning lots. I'd even add an intelligent comment if it was within my power to do so.
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\/\/
Post by: Bowlin for Beer on June 23, 2009, 02:58:36 PM
how much finger pitch do you use ?
I have been using zero pitch in my fingers but recently bought a used ball off you and love the reverse pitch you had in the fingers. I could have them measured but would have to rip out the new inserts to do it (they're lifts which makes measuring pitch inaccurate). Anyway, want to redrill my fingers in my other balls to match it.
Thanks in advance.
Post by: ccrider on June 23, 2009, 03:59:30 PM
1. "stronger release position of the fingers inside the ball",
2. "how to get inside the ball"
Thanks
CC
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Get on the G train.... GLOBAL BABY!
www.900global.com[/quote]
Post by: backswing_aplenty on June 23, 2009, 04:47:46 PM
Keep the discussion going. If they discussed rockets like we discuss reverse pitch, cg, and RICO, we'd be colonizing Europa by now.
Things like the "modern" fit need to be talked about. More people than not should have some sort of reverse in their fingers. Whether it's 1/8 or 1/2, cutting back on the forward pitch from a 1980's fit could do wonders for some.
While I do agree with the cynicism of DB about how technical it needs to be. I would NOT change fit to roll the ball differently. Change fit based on how the hand is shaped, the flexibility of the fingers in relation to thumb, and how the thumb hinges when it connects to the palm. Only after those parameters are met should you adjust fit based on how one rolls the ball.
*backswing
--------------------
Storm Staff 2009
Professional Approach Staff So Cal
Edited on 6/23/2009 4:48 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 23, 2009, 07:34:26 PM
quote:
Anxious to pick up my Gamebreaker Thursday and see what it does. The pitches and span is supposed to match the Playmaker I threw today and hopefull the driller gets it right as he is for what ever reason not too accurate on the span anymore. Gets pitches perfect but not the span. I made him let me check the span today before he drilled it. I had him adjust it a wee bit and drill it and it came out perfect.
If the Gamebreaker comes off my hand as well as the Playmaker did today, then I am on the right track. I'm anxious to get this issue resolved as I have 3 NIB balls sitting in the closet to drill plus plug and redrill one in my bag.
Here is the latest on my trying to convert to reverse finger pitch.....I got the Gamebreaker out of the proshop last Thursday with reverse pitches to match the Playmaker that I tried and liked. First game 223 with more revs and a harder-better pin mixing hit. Second game 211. Then third game, for some reason I began hitting up on the ball in place of letting the ball roll off my fingers like I did previously with the Playmaker and the first 2 games here with the Gamebreaker and bowled 158.
I practiced yesterday and continued trying to hit up on the ball like I did with my previous grip of 0 F-R pitch and power lift grips. Bowled league today (210-175-188 = 573) and still tried hitting up on the ball like I used to. I can't figure out as to why I quit hitting up on the ball the first 2 times I tried this new grip with reverse finger pitch and now I am trying to hit up on the ball again.
Has anyone had this experience when converting from 0 F-R finger pitch to quite a bit of reverse finger pitch?......And if so, do they know what caused it and how they corrected it? I am totally confused as to why the first few games with this new grip, I threw the ball right and now when I should be perfecting-fine tuning my new release, I'm not and am back to my old ways of hitting up on the ball and can't seem to stop it.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 23, 2009, 09:30:58 PM
quote:
Check your timing. Most people start grabbing at the ball later in blocks due to their feet getting faster or their push away getting earlier. Usually the issue is the feet, so make sure you keep them in check!
You may have a point there. In thinking when I first used this reverse pitch with success, I'm thinking that maybe I may have been a bit hesitant since all the pitches and span were new, thus maybe slower feet??? .... and today being more comfortable with the grip maybe faster or fast feet??? I'm going to look at that Thursday when I bowl again...Thanks for the tip.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Bowlin for Beer on June 23, 2009, 09:33:46 PM
Post by: Mike Austin on June 23, 2009, 10:57:05 PM
quote:
Mike Austin,
how much finger pitch do you use ?
I have been using zero pitch in my fingers but recently bought a used ball off you and love the reverse pitch you had in the fingers. I could have them measured but would have to rip out the new inserts to do it (they're lifts which makes measuring pitch inaccurate). Anyway, want to redrill my fingers in my other balls to match it.
Thanks in advance.
I use 1/2 reverse in both fingers.
--------------------
My ebay store: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/MikeAustinProShop
Open again!
Post by: J_w73 on June 24, 2009, 01:32:29 AM
where should I go from 0.. 1/8, 1/4, 1/2??
Also.. if I go more reverse in the fingers will I need more forward in the thumb so I don't lose the ball?
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on June 24, 2009, 09:27:26 AM
i had almost a 5 1/2 inch span with 1/4 forward in the fingers... + grips that puts more forward.. this felt fine to me for about 20 years.. until I just changed on a whim..
now I am at 4 5/8 span with 0 in the fingers.. feels pretty good but maybe reverse will be better..
is it a rule that you want the reverse so the fingers will not press at all on the backside if you relax your grip..??
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: JohnP on June 24, 2009, 04:57:06 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 24, 2009, 05:12:28 PM
The more separation the easier to create area I think....your thoughts "modern bowling" gurus?
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 24, 2009, 07:13:55 PM
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: BrianCRX90 on June 26, 2009, 07:06:22 PM
Post by: Smash49 on June 26, 2009, 08:20:05 PM
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: Mike Austin on June 26, 2009, 09:25:48 PM
quote:
Brian that's the point. You were trying to grab at something that is designed to make you relax and have better feel. It's not a miracle cure over night and things will be considerably different. Many people have bowled so long uncomfortablely that to do anything different just doesn't work for them. They try to do things the way they always have and it just doesn't work that way. The feel is just not the same and it won't be. Did you change the entire grip or just the fingers? You have to adjust the entire grip. Calluses are a bad thing. Bowling in pain is a bad thing. One of my instructors told me that if it doesn't seem or feel weird, different or unusual you haven't made a change. With change comes work, understanding and adjustments. If everything felt the same there would be no change.
Smash49
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Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Now this is a Smash49 statement that I agree with 100%.
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Open again!
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 26, 2009, 09:46:42 PM
quote:
Now this is a Smash49 statement that I agree with 100%.
Thru my current experience of attempting to switch to reverse finger pitch, I am in total agreement with both Smash and Mike Austin. I unknowingly (sort of) keep searching for that old feel and it is really interferring with my release. When I first tried reverse finger pitch as reported in the early days of this topic, I was really excited with the change, my easier release, more revs, more control, better scores, and etc. Now for the past 3 outings, everything has gone south on me and I am throwing the ball terrible with little hook, dead hits, and etc. Just the opposite of what I was getting at the beginning. Nothing has chamged as far as my grip is concerned.....but something in my release has changed and I can't figure out what it is.
I did prove initially that this reverse finger pitch seems that it will work for me. My driller sucks when I talk to him about what is happening, asking for advisement and etc. He doesn't offer to help or advise or even go watch me throw a few balls. He just sits there and stares at me saying nothing. However, I haven't given up on this reverse pitch yet.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: TDC57 on June 26, 2009, 09:56:49 PM
Post by: Smash49 on June 26, 2009, 10:20:36 PM
I just came back from a USBC, IBPSIA summit. USBC is high on proving everything by way of science! This should be on the list.
Smash49
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Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: TDC57 on June 27, 2009, 01:30:14 AM
I don't know if you were responding to me or not but those are my finger specs and my thumb is 1/4 reverse with zero lateral. I do not muscle the ball. That is something I've never been accused of. As a matter of fact I have people tell me I don't do enough with the ball. My finger pitches were set up by my ball driller. The thumb pitches were my choice after some experimentation. When I muscle the ball is when I get the sore elbow.
Post by: BrianCRX90 on June 28, 2009, 07:00:13 PM
quote:
Brian that's the point. You were trying to grab at something that is designed to make you relax and have better feel. It's not a miracle cure over night and things will be considerably different. Many people have bowled so long uncomfortablely that to do anything different just doesn't work for them. They try to do things the way they always have and it just doesn't work that way. The feel is just not the same and it won't be. Did you change the entire grip or just the fingers? You have to adjust the entire grip. Calluses are a bad thing. Bowling in pain is a bad thing. One of my instructors told me that if it doesn't seem or feel weird, different or unusual you haven't made a change. With change comes work, understanding and adjustments. If everything felt the same there would be no change.
The driller had me go from both thumb and fingers that were at 0 to forward 1/8 on the thumb which in the end I loved it and ended up keeping it on future balls. I think the problem with the fingers with the reverse is they were drilled too big. I'm not exactly sure why the driller did this but they pretty much felt like a semi finger grip. But I remember I kept on dropping it. I could try it again in an old ball but afraid to try in on a new ball. The other real problem for me even more so was my span was like 1/8 of an inch or maybe more too long and now shortened that and feels much better.
Post by: Smash49 on June 29, 2009, 04:50:55 PM
The lifts pitch you usually 1/8 forward. So going to the ovals relaxed you 1/8. That would relieve the stress. The 1/4 reverse thumb helps some also. It should keep you from squeezing as much and help you relax.
Brian
Do you have 0 in the fingers and 1/8 forward in the thumb. I'd need to look but this sounds like it would make you hang up or grab the ball.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 15, 2009, 11:37:55 AM
....Many-Many thanks to Mike Austin that my reverse pitch & grip problems are now resolved. I have only tried it for 4 games so far, but WOW, what a difference. The ball's weight is now on the pads of my fingers, thumb releases so smooth at the right time, I am able to hold the ball with no squeezing of it, ball has more revs, I am able to swing the ball better and etc.Mike didn't even look at my old ball. He simply re-did my entire grip from scratch as if I was a new bowler that didn't own a ball....and to top it off, after he drilled it, not a single adjustment had to be made to the thumb or anything. I didn't even need to add tape or anything to the thumb hole. The fit was so perfect that I simply was able to take it out on the lanes and start bowling with it as if I had always had that perfect fitting grip. I was simply amazed at what Mike did. He is so accurate in what he does.
Again even though I thanked him over and over, I am thanking Mike Austin here once again. Thanks Mike.....
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: ccrider on July 15, 2009, 12:31:31 PM
I plugged a power machine, and redrilled it after remeasuring with a jayhawk ball fitter, 49/16 span, with 1/4 reverse in the thumb and 1/2 reverse in the fingers. Ball fills good/comfortable, although the span is maxxed out for me and I have been thinking that I have been doing pretty good with a relaxed span. I will have to see how it works out on the lane.
I remember someone posting that 0 to forward on the thumb is better and promotes a more relaxed grip. I could not get out of the ball with reverse on my fingers and 0 on my thumb, so we had to adjust to reverse on the thumb.
I immediately noticed that the reverse on the fingers shifts the wait of the ball more to the pads of my fingers. I do not know that this will help with revs but we will see. I generally do not grab at the bottom of my swing anyway, so I do not know that the change will matter.
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Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
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Post by: LuckyLefty on July 15, 2009, 12:36:59 PM
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: BrianCRX90 on July 15, 2009, 08:12:34 PM
quote:
TDC57
The lifts pitch you usually 1/8 forward. So going to the ovals relaxed you 1/8. That would relieve the stress. The 1/4 reverse thumb helps some also. It should keep you from squeezing as much and help you relax.
Brian
Do you have 0 in the fingers and 1/8 forward in the thumb. I'd need to look but this sounds like it would make you hang up or grab the ball.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Absolutely not. Who told you that having forward in the thumb would force you to grab the ball?
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on July 15, 2009, 09:13:40 PM
I've since went to 1/8 forward pitch in two new pieces, and can actually feel it now. I can still get the ball off cleanly, which is a bonus.
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You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.
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Post by: los2003 on July 15, 2009, 10:52:07 PM
Post by: Lillen on July 16, 2009, 02:45:38 AM
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Edited on 7/16/2009 2:47 AM
Post by: Smash49 on July 16, 2009, 10:00:58 AM
It is not only the forward in the thumb but a combination of 0 in the fingers that forces grabbing. Think about grabbing anything. How do you do it? Squeeze a beer can and you essentially get the same effect. Go the other way and you drop things. Keeping your fingers at 90 degrees and moving your thumb forward is the basics of grabbing.
Afterthought..... Technically you can grab something without applying a lot of pressure. There is a difference between squeezing and grabbing.
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com
Edited on 7/16/2009 10:17 AM
Edited on 7/16/2009 10:45 AM
Post by: Mike Austin on July 16, 2009, 05:13:01 PM
quote:
So Brick...what are your new specs....and what were old? Do you know?
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
LL,
Old grip or pretty close:
Spans were 4 3/8 total on both fingers. About 1/8 reverse on MF, and 1/4 reverse on RF. 1/8 reverse on thumb with no lateral. This is just what I observed through talking to Brick and looking at a couple of his balls.
New grip:
Spans are 4 1/2 and 4 9/16. 1/2 reverse and 3/8 left lateral on MF. 5/8 reverse and 3/8 right lateral on RF. Thumb is 1/4 Reverse and 1/8 left lateral.
His hand is actually much bigger than this span, could be another 1/8 longer on both fingers, but his fingers are very stiff, not just the first joint either. Added the left lateral, has a big pad on his hand below the thumb, his hand just naturally goes that way and not back to the right very well. Thumb joint is pretty stiff also. He has a long thumb, long from web to joint in thumb. Fingers are pretty straight, no big knots or bumps.
I also made his thumb smaller overall. He has been using a 61/64 round thumb. I milled him a thumb using a 29/32 bit to .973 @45 degrees. I didn't do much to the thumb after drilling, I figured he would bevel to his liking, as he knows how to make this adjustment.
HOPEFULLY, as he lessens his grip pressure, his thumb will come out cleaner, and he will be able to spin the ball just a little bit more. Has some loft, and comes up the back pretty well. Holds the ball and muscles his swing a lot, but it will come with confidence that the ball is not going to lock up on him, and as he relaxes. Seems to have been squeezing for a long time. The short grip and 1/4 reverse on some of his balls made him grip the ball hard, and his elbow barely straightens out all the way.
Let's see what happens after a 2-4 weeks....
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 23, 2009, 09:08:23 AM
TO .... me it doesn't sound like the reverse is the key....BUT instead the proper span sounds real important in this case!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 23, 2009, 10:42:50 AM
quote:
Sounds fascinating!
TO .... me it doesn't sound like the reverse is the key....BUT instead the proper span sounds real important in this case!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Not entirely true. Span is important but it isn't going to work without the proper pitches in my case, especially with fingers on the stiff side and stiffer than I realized they are. I had previously tried longer spans with no change to finger pitches and slight change to finger pitches and these longer spans failed miserably. Now in the case of a person having good flexability of the fingers, then yes your statement does hold some truth saying that span is the key, but in my case it isn't THE key, but is PART OF the key and in the area of 50-50.....50% span and 50% correct REVERSE finger pitch along with correct reverse and left lateral thumb pitch.
I am now bowling way better than I have for a long-long time. To get back to where I once was when I averaged in the mid 190's to low 200's, I have to break a few bad habits that I have accumalated the past 3-4 years and it isn't going to be easy, but I have started and the results are good thus far.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: los2003 on July 23, 2009, 01:12:41 PM
quote:
I am actually going to go from 0 in the fingers to 1/2 reverse because I was breaking a blood vessel in my nail so it actually brought my attention to it. And talked to a couple shop owners I know and they both said I could go 1/2 away.. So i'm gonna try it in a few pieces i'm not worried about
Post by: LuckyLefty on July 31, 2009, 02:20:07 PM
It sounds like the set of compensations you had before were TERRIBLE! Vs where you have gone today!
With a wonderful fit one goes a long way towards breaking bad swing habits. I believe this applies to bowling AND golf.
Of course as one goes to a more reverse one can add span and lots of forward takes away span. But it sounds like you were very short before. It sounds like the master Mike Austin has dialed you in! I do remember you discussing your unusual stiff fingers thumb and coke bottle test. Everthing has come together.
Out of curiousity Los2003.....can you bend your fingers .....a little bit? Or virtually none at all?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: los2003 on July 31, 2009, 02:42:15 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on July 31, 2009, 04:50:13 PM
quote:
It sounds like the master Mike Austin has dialed you in!
LuckyLefty, indeed Mike has dialed me in. Unbelieveable that the fit was so perfect on the first try that no further adjustments or minor changes needed. I will be forever thankful to him for what he has done for me here. In addition, this new grip has allowed me to go from very low revs to the weak side of medium revs and gets closer to actual medium every time I go bowl.
I have a few years of bad habits to now correct in regard to my mechanics and after doing them for so long, it isn't going to be easy to correct. Going to take some time and isn't going to happen overnight.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 01, 2009, 05:43:59 PM
That is nice to hear!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..