BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: trash heap on April 11, 2014, 12:10:28 PM
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Are these numbers exact science? or does each manfacturer have their own way of producing them.
Just curious.
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It's exact science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radius_of_gyration
Then differential is the difference between the rg of the core's vertical height and the rg of it's horizontal width. Basic stuff of course . . lol.
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Alright.
I find these numbers interesting. I found this Motiv Ball and its numbers seem almost off the chart to what I normally see with other balls.
Example: Motiv Raptor Talon
16lbs. Rg - 2.46 Diff. - 0.060
15lbs. Rg - 2.46 Diff. - 0.060
14lbs. Rg - 2.48 Diff. - 0.060
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Compare it to the taboo and its not.
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A lot of older balls used to have really low rgs and high differentials, the trend has gone slightly away from that because while they used to try to control the midlane, balls started getting TOO aggressive in the midlane with increases in coverstock technology, which is most likely why rgs have started creeping up and differentials have crept down. The Raptor Talon is supposed to hook off the planet though, and they went for it with those numbers. What I find interesting is the similarity of the numbers between the 3 different weights . .
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Alright.
I find these numbers interesting. I found this Motiv Ball and its numbers seem almost off the chart to what I normally see with other balls.
Example: Motiv Raptor Talon
16lbs. Rg - 2.46 Diff. - 0.060
15lbs. Rg - 2.46 Diff. - 0.060
14lbs. Rg - 2.48 Diff. - 0.060
The Cruel had the same numbers.
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I wouldn't obsess about pre-drilled rg's and diffs... it's not like anyone throws undrilled balls
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Hey now, that's too much common sense and logic for this forum . .
I wouldn't obsess about pre-drilled rg's and diffs... it's not like anyone throws undrilled balls
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Hey now, that's too much common sense and logic for this forum . .
I wouldn't obsess about pre-drilled rg's and diffs... it's not like anyone throws undrilled balls
Enlighten us. Please. If the numbers mean nothing, what is you decision process in buying a ball? What is the criteria you use to determine a ball for a specific condition for a specific type of bowler?
Is it just the amount of oil (Light, Medium, Heavy) that the manufacturer reccomends?
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Yes. Manufacturers intent is a huge factor. It is why they use a specific core with a specific coverstock. You cannot seperate them.
The Taboo plastic ball has a very aggressive core. It's still a plastic ball. The manufacture uses the core needed with the coverstock to get the correct desired reaction and shape they wish to market.
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Read what the ball is designed for. It a combination of cover and core. The cover playing the bigger role. Watch videos to see how it roles.
It's all marketing. They tell you the RG and Diff, so you will talk about them.
Just because a ball has the largest diff allowed by USBC does not mean it will hook more than another ball.
More bowling balls are sold on perception than reality.
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I am not looking for a ball to cover a ton of boards. In fact this ball is not for me. I am looking for a ball that fits my daughter's profile. She has average speed (16 mph) and below average revs. I have seen a difference already with a used 14 lb. C3 Wrath that she has now, but that ball is dying, needs some oil extraction, complete resurface, or something (I posted this in another thread).
The ball layout was drilled for it to go early. When the Wrath had a good surface on it, it would turn for her. So I am thinking maybe go with a ball that has that design in mind.
It's not the differential that caught my eye on this ball, it was the low Rg. I questioned the numbers because the Differential seemed to be on the high side and was the same across all three ball weights.
Am I off base here?
I see plenty of league bowlers (good speed low revs) using balls like Talon and they have success. They throw around 2nd arrow and have success. The ball doesn't make a big turn but it does recover if gets a little wide on a THS.
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+1
Read what the ball is designed for. It a combination of cover and core. The cover playing the bigger role. Watch videos to see how it roles.
It's all marketing. They tell you the RG and Diff, so you will talk about them.
Just because a ball has the largest diff allowed by USBC does not mean it will hook more than another ball.
More bowling balls are sold on perception than reality.
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I wouldn't say you're off base, I'd just say you're giving too much weight or too much importance to the pre drilled rg and diff numbers. Honestly I really don't pay much attention to the numbers anymore. I watch videos, watch other people throwing stuff, give a half hearted glance at the rg, and then just get the ball and throw it. I base my decisions more on design. I have a Sigma Tour, I wanted something weaker with more length and a stronger backend, so I went Tribal, didn't look at the numbers. Now I want something with more hook than the Tour and a hard arc, ordered a Covert Revolt, no idea what those numbers are, I just know how it rolls. Then you just drill the ball and go throw it, and make your small adjustments off what it's giving you.
I am not looking for a ball to cover a ton of boards. In fact this ball is not for me. I am looking for a ball that fits my daughter's profile. She has average speed (16 mph) and below average revs. I have seen a difference already with a used 14 lb. C3 Wrath that she has now, but that ball is dying, needs some oil extraction, complete resurface, or something (I posted this in another thread).
The ball layout was drilled for it to go early. When the Wrath had a good surface on it, it would turn for her. So I am thinking maybe go with a ball that has that design in mind.
It's not the differential that caught my eye on this ball, it was the low Rg. I questioned the numbers because the Differential seemed to be on the high side and was the same across all three ball weights.
Am I off base here?
I see plenty of league bowlers (good speed low revs) using balls like Talon and they have success. They throw around 2nd arrow and have success. The ball doesn't make a big turn but it does recover if gets a little wide on a THS.
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Gizmo,
Looking at your decision process and looking at the bowling balls you selected, the RG and Differential seem to coincide with descriptions you were looking for in each ball. Yes, the coverstock, is just as important too. I am just stating, I don't think its a bad thing to base some of the decision making on the RG and Diff values.
Just recall. My initial question. Are these numbers and exact science? And the first reply I got back is "YES".
Read what the ball is designed for. It a combination of cover and core. The cover playing the bigger role. Watch videos to see how it roles.
Disagree! Yes its a combination, but they both play a role equally on how the ball roles. Both are important, not one being more important than the other. When you state that the coverstock is the bigger role, makes it seem that any core will work. You know that is incorrect.
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Yes the numbers are exact science, but the fact is that coverstock makes up 70-90% of ball reaction depending on who you ask. This doesn't render the core irrelevant, because they do design cores and covers to work together, the core is just in much more of a support role. Take certain lines of bowling balls. Often you have the same core or a core very similar, but differences in coverstock or coverstock prep. Take the IQ line from Storm. The IQ Tour, IQ Pearl, and Tour Fusion all have the exact same core with the exact same numbers. Can you think of 3 more different reactions? Those 3 balls are significantly different motions from each other, all achieved with different coverstocks. You take the same cover and put it on a wide variety of cores, and you'll get a much more similar motion between all the balls.
The balls I selected happened to have the right numbers because that's how they were designed. Because of that, I can go off reaction and design or intent rather than the tech stuff. You'll get closer to what you expect or want by just looking at ball reaction and the design intent than you will by ignoring it and just looking at the numbers. Or basically it sounds like you're just making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Gizmo,
Looking at your decision process and looking at the bowling balls you selected, the RG and Differential seem to coincide with descriptions you were looking for in each ball. Yes, the coverstock, is just as important too. I am just stating, I don't think its a bad thing to base some of the decision making on the RG and Diff values.
Just recall. My initial question. Are these numbers and exact science? And the first reply I got back is "YES".
Read what the ball is designed for. It a combination of cover and core. The cover playing the bigger role. Watch videos to see how it roles.
Disagree! Yes its a combination, but they both play a role equally on how the ball roles. Both are important, not one being more important than the other. When you state that the coverstock is the bigger role, makes it seem that any core will work. You know that is incorrect.
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So for the Covert Revolt, the 12 lb ball will get same reaction as the 16 lb ball.
BALL: Covert Revolt
LANE CONDITION: Medium Heavy Oil
INNER CORE: Vanquish
COVERSTOCK: Turmoil HFS
FINISH: 3000 Grit Sanded
WEIGHTS - RG RATING - RG DIFFERENTIAL - MB DIFFERENTIAL
16 - 2.46 - .057 - None
15 - 2.47 - .056 - None
14 - 2.50 - .056 - None
13 - 2.56 - .044 - None
12 - 2.63 - .030 - None
FLARE POTENTIAL: 5"+
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So 70-90% equals 100%?
Obviously if the coverstock is 70-90% of a ball's reaction, the core still matters. You're trying to act like I said it doesn't matter at all. Obviously if you use two identical weight cores with the difference between the 15 and 12 lb values below, you're going to get a difference in reaction. It just won't be NEAR as different as if you put the Tribal coverstock on this core instead.
I should have done this in the first place, but here, enjoy: http://www.bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equip_and_Specs/Equip_and_Specs_Home/08ballmotionstudy.pdf
Scroll down to page 13 for a graph showing and ranking the importance or influence of different things on reaction. The top 5 factors on the list are related to coverstock.
So for the Covert Revolt, the 12 lb ball will get same reaction as the 16 lb ball.
BALL: Covert Revolt
LANE CONDITION: Medium Heavy Oil
INNER CORE: Vanquish
COVERSTOCK: Turmoil HFS
FINISH: 3000 Grit Sanded
WEIGHTS - RG RATING - RG DIFFERENTIAL - MB DIFFERENTIAL
16 - 2.46 - .057 - None
15 - 2.47 - .056 - None
14 - 2.50 - .056 - None
13 - 2.56 - .044 - None
12 - 2.63 - .030 - None
FLARE POTENTIAL: 5"+
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Thanks for your input Gizmo. I am not trying to start an argument. I am trying to understand. I live in area where there is not a lot of knowledge in this sport. I get conflicting information all the time.
My point in all of this is not finding the right ball for me, its making the right decision in getting a ball for my daughter. She has totally different bowling style than me. (I know what works for me is not going to work for her). This quest I am on is to get one or two balls that will work for her for next year when she competes.
I have seen many people buy the wrong ball for their kids based on a friend's (with a high average) advice. I have a little bit of knowledge in this sport, and we all know that is worst kind of knowledge to have because I can easily make the wrong decision.
The local pro shop is not reccommending anything specific. Bascially stating any ball will do. I think there is some balls better suited for her than others (Maybe I am wrong, it wouldn't be the first time or the last).
Again thanks. You responded, and gave time to answer, it was appreciated.
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That's cool haha, I'm enjoying the debate. Yeah it's REALLY hard to know who to trust because everybody is an expert. There's a guy that lives around here that's on staff with Brunswick, and everytime he gets asked about a ball or how it's drilled, he says he just throws them and to come talk to us. So not everybody that throws them good knows anything about them, but sometimes people who aren't the greatest bowlers have a lot of knowledge and are good coaches.
It sounds like your daughter is at least out of the beginning stage. For younger kids, I'll always point them towards the lower end stuff. For older kids, even if they're still beginners, I'll recommend something more mid range. Just with the extra strength and coordination that age brings, older kids have the potential to become better faster. Older kids also tend to develop and learn at the same time, but there's only a limited amount that younger kids will actually learn, most of the time you have to try to develop coordination first with them. Without seeing her bowl, it's tough, but I'd recommend something like a Hyroad, Venom Toxin, Eruption Pro, Melee, etc, things of that nature. If numbers are your thing, stay around 2.50 on the rg, and around .030 on the differential. Even though these will change after drilling, they still give you an idea what the ball is designed to do. Should give her something relatively smooth and controllable.
Thanks for your input Gizmo. I am not trying to start an argument. I am trying to understand. I live in area where there is not a lot of knowledge in this sport. I get conflicting information all the time.
My point in all of this is not finding the right ball for me, its making the right decision in getting a ball for my daughter. She has totally different bowling style than me. (I know what works for me is not going to work for her). This quest I am on is to get one or two balls that will work for her for next year when she competes.
I have seen many people buy the wrong ball for their kids based on a friend's (with a high average) advice. I have a little bit of knowledge in this sport, and we all know that is worst kind of knowledge to have because I can easily make the wrong decision.
The local pro shop is not reccommending anything specific. Bascially stating any ball will do. I think there is some balls better suited for her than others (Maybe I am wrong, it wouldn't be the first time or the last).
Again thanks. You responded, and gave time to answer, it was appreciated.
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Read what the ball is designed for. It a combination of cover and core. The cover playing the bigger role. Watch videos to see how it roles.
It's all marketing. They tell you the RG and Diff, so you will talk about them.
Just because a ball has the largest diff allowed by USBC does not mean it will hook more than another ball.
More bowling balls are sold on perception than reality.
EXACTLY...The Assassin has a diff of 60...The IQ Tour Fusion has a diff of 29...
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JLS??? Must be hungover from the Masters to be on here talking about bowling. I know I am going the other direction. GOLF ON!!!