Post by: machine189 on August 11, 2009, 03:42:49 AM
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Approach the game with no preset agendas and you''ll probably come away surprised at your overall efforts.
Post by: kidlost2000 on August 11, 2009, 11:48:47 AM
I hate some of the travel leagues and other things that require sandbagging to keep team averages below a certain number and ect...
Or people that do it for low averages going into tournaments. F*%k'em.
"step your game up" F. Mayweather
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" hand, don't step on the lanes without some "
Edited on 8/11/2009 2:21 PM
Post by: Bluff on August 11, 2009, 11:52:37 AM
IS call average management. Think of it as part of the game. Like the abilty to convert all splits
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I like bowling because it give me 3 holes of fun.
Post by: machine189 on August 11, 2009, 12:20:51 PM
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Approach the game with no preset agendas and you'll probably come away surprised at your overall efforts.
Post by: Big_Ernest_McCracken on August 11, 2009, 12:24:04 PM
Rule 17a. #2 and #3
An individual can be charged with attempting to gain an unfair advantage in league or tournament play for the following reasons:
2. Misrepresenting an average to gain a greater handicap, or qualify for a lower classification in an event.
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or classified competition.
Penalty: Loss of games, prize winnings, league removal (see Rules 115a or 115c), and subject to suspension from or denial of USBC membership.
Think about that the next time you "manage your average" nostick.
Post by: mmcfarland300 on August 11, 2009, 12:31:04 PM
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"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
Post by: Smash49 on August 11, 2009, 12:32:19 PM
Smash49
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Smash49
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Post by: BrunsMike on August 11, 2009, 12:37:34 PM
Then when he entered a tournament with a 175 average he put on his full game, he only shot 7 pins over average for the tournament. Before that event which I was bowling in I shot +132 after 5 games. He was -90 after 5 games. He missed the cut to top 32 by 50 pins.
A week after this event he comes up to me and says "man I'm at your level you just don't know it". He don't realize that with all his sandbaggin he devoloped A LOT of bad habbits but "he just dont know it". He keeps saying that he's going to average 205+ this year blah blah blah.
I personally don't like baggers but it's all in what the other person believes in.
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Post by: Big_Ernest_McCracken on August 11, 2009, 12:38:56 PM
I know everyone has a bad week every now and then, but if you go from consistently 150s to consistently 200s or something like that of a big jump, I'll send in the info to the USBC and let the USBC handle it.
I've only had to do this once, and don't activly search out people to report, but if I know its occurring in sanctioned league play, I'll report it.
In any case, most well run leagues have ways to prevent this and this typically only happens in house run leagues.
Post by: Oskuposer on August 11, 2009, 12:44:55 PM
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Kiall Hill
Visionary test staff
Post by: bcw1969 on August 11, 2009, 12:44:58 PM
Brad
Post by: Bluff on August 11, 2009, 12:56:10 PM
quote:
A friend of mine hates sandbaggers and yet he does it himself. Kinda hipocritical right?? I brought this point up to him and he's like aww naw man I ain't baggin!
Then when he entered a tournament with a 175 average he put on his full game, he only shot 7 pins over average for the tournament. Before that event which I was bowling in I shot +132 after 5 games. He was -90 after 5 games. He missed the cut to top 32 by 50 pins.
A week after this event he comes up to me and says "man I'm at your level you just don't know it". He don't realize that with all his sandbaggin he devoloped A LOT of bad habbits but "he just dont know it". He keeps saying that he's going to average 205+ this year blah blah blah.
I personally don't like baggers but it's all in what the other person believes in.
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Only Sandbaggers worried about others Hdcp lol
Post by: trash heap on August 11, 2009, 01:01:51 PM
Those keeping low averages in leagues for handicap in tournaments is who I consider to be the worst of the worst.
When you see anyone with an average below 180 and proceeds to shoot 650+ in a tournament (At a center that is not theirs) ... I think they need to be looked at. There should be red flags going up. I have seen this happen many times and thats why I don't go to handicap tournaments with exception of Local Association and the State Tournament.
What I find amusing is I have won some brackets with low scores...when those in the handicap brackets have much higher scratch scores than me.
Post by: snowman4951 on August 11, 2009, 01:04:22 PM
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FIRE ON THE LANES,ICE IN THE VEINS!!!!
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Post by: Contude on August 11, 2009, 01:50:47 PM
Post by: Sean John 369 on August 11, 2009, 01:51:23 PM
Quote
no suchthing as sandbaging
IS call average management. Think of it as part of the game. Like the abilty to convert all splits
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I like bowling because it give me 3 holes of fun.
[/quote"
HAHAHAHA.."AVERAGE MANAGEMENT"...I use this term when Im bowling bad. It's a way of Coping with a substandard performance....
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It aint how, it's how many. Shut up and bowl!!
Paul Murchison
Post by: Sean John 369 on August 11, 2009, 01:54:59 PM
quote:
There is such thing as sandbagging, and its against the USBC rules.
Rule 17a. #2 and #3
An individual can be charged with attempting to gain an unfair advantage in league or tournament play for the following reasons:
2. Misrepresenting an average to gain a greater handicap, or qualify for a lower classification in an event.
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or classified competition.
Penalty: Loss of games, prize winnings, league removal (see Rules 115a or 115c), and subject to suspension from or denial of USBC membership.
Think about that the next time you "manage your average" nostick.
I think it's difficult to enforce this rule as many people tournament hop. Go places where people don't know them and enter with a low average and tear up the shot...i know a few in my area.
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It aint how, it's how many. Shut up and bowl!!
Paul Murchison
Post by: trash heap on August 11, 2009, 02:09:09 PM
quote:
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or classified competition.
This is one that I think most sandbaggers fall under. It is so hard to prove. If the "scum" only bowls in a few tournaments a year it can be tough to get this noticed by the USBC.
Post by: Atochabsh on August 11, 2009, 02:17:26 PM
Local Association cannot do anything until they have written complaints with eveidence of sandbagging. Such as tournament averages way over their book averages. Subbing and bowling in many leagues and quitting just shy of 21 games. Summer averages that are much higher then their book average.
Then a formal hearing will occure. Certified letters will go out for attendees on both sides and association officers and hearing committee members will be called in. Once a hearing has happened by the local association then the hearing report goes to USBC. Ramifications are then decided by USBC based on the committee findings.
The problem is that a lot of people like to gripe about sandbagging but no one wants to put their issues in writing and provide any proof.
Erin
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on August 11, 2009, 02:29:29 PM
I mean yes it's very possible, and it does happen, but.....
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: kidlost2000 on August 11, 2009, 03:45:50 PM
If you bowl more then one league almost all tournaments go off your high average for the past two seasons.
If you sandbag you are a.....
should be the starter for the next topic.
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" hand, don't step on the lanes without some "
Post by: BrianCRX90 on August 11, 2009, 04:47:31 PM
Post by: Gazoo on August 11, 2009, 05:00:58 PM
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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"
Post by: On Further Review on August 11, 2009, 05:38:05 PM
quote:
+1 You can't force people to have intergity. They either do or they don't.
True, and you can't even force bowling or tournament officials to have integrity either, so how can you really expect every bowler to be honest?
Post by: tenpin477 on August 11, 2009, 07:29:46 PM
quote:
Classic example they had a $7k first place handicap tournament around this area which was doubles. I looked at the final results and the winners were a 143 and 138 average bowling team. The 143 average shot 190, 220, 250. The 138 shot 180 160 210. Just so happens for $7k they have career days??
I mean yes it's very possible, and it does happen, but.....
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
When you come in averagine 138 and 143, yes that is a career day lol. Sandbagging normally occurs where a 220 would average 205 or something like that. A 220 is not going to average 143 in league. A 160 who is trying to dump is going to average 143 in league, and for a 160 to shoot 190, 220, 250 that is still impressive.
I don't like bagging as much as the next guy, but lets be realistic, nobody bags that low lol. Its not really possible to be honest
Post by: trash heap on August 11, 2009, 07:44:20 PM
quote:
I don't like bagging as much as the next guy, but lets be realistic, nobody bags that low
Oh yes there are people who do this. These people take their lumps in league and laugh their way to the bank after the tournament.
Post by: Atochabsh on August 11, 2009, 08:03:11 PM
It is a big problemsandbagging. Its not really something bowlers should or shouldn't hate, 100% should hate it. We have pockets of people that seriously supplement their income doing this. And its at all average levels and both male and female.
Erin
Post by: txbowler on August 12, 2009, 12:12:36 PM
All for stopping sandbagging...but here's the problem. You cannot catch innocent bowlers in the sandbagging web.
There's a house that is out in the boonies about an 1.5 hrs from Dallas. It has wood lanes (not resurfaced in years) and a machine that is at least 10-15 old. I promise you, their shot is not the great wall of china that a lot of THS are.
Now the next closest house is at least 30 miles away. We bowl there as part of our traveling league and our entire league struggles there.
Now, how about a house bowler there. They try their best and bowl their best every week and average 185 because that's the best that house allows you to bowl. Now they go enter a HDCP tournament, and average 210+.
They are not sandbaggers....
And you cannot punish those bowlers who are league members of this house. But I bet most of you would call them sandbaggers. And if you don't, how do you tell the difference?
Post by: Atochabsh on August 12, 2009, 12:20:50 PM
quote:
And you cannot punish those bowlers who are league members of this house. But I bet most of you would call them sandbaggers. And if you don't, how do you tell the difference?
This is why you need a history, not just one or two incidences. But if people delibertly bowl in that house, for the purpose of having a lower average so that they can attend handicap tournaments, then the tournament committee can rerate them. But again, it would take more then one or two incidences of cashing. This is why official rerating takes a hearing, and then review by USBC.
Erin
Post by: raiderh20boy on August 12, 2009, 12:34:34 PM
SAD to see and hear kids rooting for some to get beat because they know whats happening.
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Use "IT" and BOWL UP A STORM!!
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on August 12, 2009, 12:35:24 PM
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: snowman4951 on August 12, 2009, 12:56:19 PM
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FIRE ON THE LANES,ICE IN THE VEINS!!!!
Help a friend out:Sign the petition for caffeine free chocolate
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?cfreecho
Viva La Metal Militia!!
Post by: 3M Dust Remover on August 12, 2009, 07:30:56 PM
Post by: gbrown on August 12, 2009, 09:35:54 PM
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working on my game
Weapons of choice
Hyroad
T-road pearl
twisted fury solid
ultra zone
python
Post by: BenD on August 12, 2009, 09:49:07 PM
Post by: trash heap on August 12, 2009, 10:15:55 PM
quote:
i have consistently averaged around 186 the last 4 years and every 3 months i bowl in a county tournament for fun with co-workers. Well i shot a 814 in the last tournament
You probably won scratch too. I am not saying people don't have career nights. But in the earlier example it was two people below 150 average and they both had great nights compared to their average. When that occurs I think a red a flag goes up.
These people need to be looked at not just oh well they have a career night. If you don't do anything then it only tells them they can do it even more. They will establish lower averages. I think in that example...my opinion these people did that. Kept a lower average just to make sure they got that first place.
When I started back in bowling I knew a guy at work. We got to talking and he was telling me he subbed in a league the previous year. Well he bowled enough games to establish an average. That average was 166. He didn't do well in that league cause he didn't have his equipment (He just moved to the area and his stuff was still at his parents house). He was using a house ball.
So he looked at this as an opportunity to get some cash. He normally bowls around 200. He enters a tournament and gets through first round. Then he meets up with a guy who has a 160 average. Well my coworker throws 2 open frames in the first five then throws a split in the sixth. His opponent has several strikes and my coworker walks off the lanes. He wasn't expecting to meet up with another bagger.
Post by: six pack on August 12, 2009, 10:42:05 PM
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The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: Bronco Bowler on August 12, 2009, 11:54:11 PM