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Author Topic: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets  (Read 16532 times)

Dogtown

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Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« on: October 22, 2012, 09:00:34 AM »
Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets.  Before you answer, here is my problem.

The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220.  Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could.  And they should have, and here's why.  If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230.  If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219.  Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.

No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.

Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.

My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game.  So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.

Any thoughts.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 10:20:53 AM by Dogtown »

 

spmcgivern

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 02:28:54 PM »
There is another reason things won't be changing soon:

Tournament directors want all of the scratch bowlers in as many brackets as possible.  Think about the last handicap tournament you went to.  If you told all of the scratch bowlers they couldn't get in the handicap brackets, then you would have a lot fewer brackets.  Many scratch bowlers look to brackets as a source of income and try to get into as many brackets as possible.  I have seen people in as many as 150 brackets (scratch and handicap) for a single 3-game shift of a tournament.  So that equals at least 150 x $5.00 (or whatever the typical cut is for the bracket organizer).  There goal isn't to make it as fair as possible, but to find a way to get as many brackets going as possible to make as much money as possible.

Aloarjr810

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 02:39:04 PM »
I don't mind scratch bowlers in hdcp. brackets, they have a hdcp too. its just 0.

What is funny is those are the same scratch bowlers  who will whine and complain about handicap and sandbaggers beating them in the tournament or league. yet they don't think twice about going against them in the hdcp. brackets.

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trash heap

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 04:15:54 PM »
When you enter a handicap tournament, you should know exactly what you are getting into. There is going to be chance that someone with a low average is going to score big. If that tournament lays down any Typical House Shot, then its a definite guarantee that many bowlers are going to score big. You just have to be prepared.

Any tournament trying to adjust handicap for "sandbagging" or "that low average bowler throwing big" is going to fail. Handicap should be set at highest average of entering bowler. Percentage should be no lower than 90%.

Big games are part of today's bowling. Just look at the pros. You see a pro throwing a 150 game then come back and throw 230 and 240 games. The average bowler can do this too. Throw a 140 then throw 190 or 210.

Now my only issue about handicap is the scores over 300. I actually think there should be a cap on handicap score. Once you hit 300, that is it. You get no more pins for the game.
 
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txbowler

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2012, 04:25:33 PM »
I agree that there should a 300 cap on all bracket scores.

My other point, is that there should be no whining or bitching when you lose.

If you get beat, man up and take the loss.  Don't complain about your fellow bowler who entered the bracket assuming they would win too.

No, excuses. The sun didn't get in your eyes.  Doesn't matter if your opponent got 5 brooklyns and you stoned 5 eight pins.  They knocked more pins (maybe with handicap) than you did which is the goal.

Rightycomplex

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2012, 05:32:19 PM »
+1 with Heap and tx.
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cheech

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2012, 06:02:07 PM »
this may have already been said but were there scratch brackets available? if not what do you want scratch bowlers to do? not have a chance to make extra money on the side while everyone else gets to? thats not fair. im with johnP.....raise the handicap base to higher than the high average

Tex

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2012, 09:13:30 PM »
I've always felt that the 180 average bowler (to use the earlier example) has a greater opportunity to bowl over their average. This is especially true if that bowler happens to be good at managing their average. Yea, there out there. There are a lot of honest bowlers, but there are those that manage to bowl 21 or 24 games and set lower average and walk in and shoot over. It is difficult as a tournament director to manage these situations. After all, you are in it to make money too. As far as the 230 average bowlers, we see a few of these but they are a minority. I would say the 210 to 220 have a fair representation and even more in the 200 to 210. I don't discriminate the guys above the handicap number and at times these guys will dominate the brackets. I see just as many of the lower average bowlers come in and shoot a great set and win everything they entered. Yes, there are more of the high average bowlers that walk in and say put me in every bracket, a lot more than handicap bowlers for sure. One thing I try to do is encourage my big guns to all bowl the same squads so there are a lot of scratch brackets and not as many handicap in those squads. These guys want the competition so given the chance they will bowl the big money squads. Most tournament directors don't go to the trouble to do this or have the connections to spread the word as to when to schedule to take advantage of the money if it is what they are looking for. You have to work with the entries you have and these days it is not getting any easier to fill your squads.


ithinkican

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2012, 11:39:50 PM »
why not just get better? that is how i looked at it. now that i average 230, i have to be honest with you. most people put their game faces on in tournaments and it is a lot harder to win brackets with zero handicap than it is to win with handicap
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spmcgivern

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2012, 07:20:22 AM »
Good comments Tex.  It is difficult getting bowlers for tournaments. Tournament directors try to set up tournaments in a way to attract the most bowlers.  Set handicap based on 200 and no lower average bowlers show up.  Set it at 240 and no high average bowlers show up.  You can't set it to the highest because you don't know who the highest will be. 

Pick tournaments to bowl in based on what you feel the most comfortable with.  And spend money knowing there is a chance you walk out with nothing.  If you win or break even, then it was a good day.  But if you lose, just chalk it up to experience and get ready for the next tournament.

Dogtown

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2012, 08:02:31 AM »
My thought when I posted this was that handicapped brackets are for you average bowler to be able to compete.  I didn't think it was fare that the 230 scratch bowler was given such an advantage because the handicap was based on 220.

The other solution would be to raise the handicap to be 90% of 230 or 240.  I know www.virtualtournaments.com had do that early on for that exact reason.  Thanks for the comments.

budda

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2012, 10:29:59 AM »
The only reason scratch bowlers get into handicap brackets is to make some money. If it is that much of an issue, then the tournament director should not allow scratch bowlers in handicap brackets.
But really that is the only way to make some money. At any given handicap tournament there is very few scratch brackets, and a ton of handicap.
But that is gambling, dont put the money up if you are affraid you are going to lose it. Thats just the way it is. I have lost countless brackets to handicap, and I dont care. He beat me, thats all there is, I could care less what his average is. Most of the time, I dont even look.
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Jorge300

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2012, 12:06:44 PM »
I have seen very good and some very ignorant comments in this thread. I have a few comments of my own that may fall into one or both of these catagories :).
 
First off, handicap is not given to give anyone an "advantage" it is designed to help level the playing field and allow bowlers of different skill levels to compete against one another. So in this case, the 230 average bowlers competed better and won the money, it is not always the case and I would contend that this scenario happens less than 50% of the time. If you try to outlaw "scratch" bowlers from the handicap brackets, all you are going to do is run your tournament out of business. You will lose the higher average bowlers, because why compete when there is no chance at added money to help offset the costs of the tournament. By the time you are finished you don't have enough entrants to make running the tournament worthwhile, because more higher average bowlers bowl tournaments than they typical 180 average bowlers.
 
Second, if you really want to make it "fair", get rid of handicap altogether. Run two sets of brackets 200 and under, 201 and over and make them all scratch. Then no complaining about who has what perceived advantage. Just bowl and the best bowlers win, period. The 180 average bowler doesn't have to compete against a 230 average bowler either.
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txbowler

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2012, 01:47:20 PM »
I also think that part of the issue is that the bowler of today has evolved somewhat due to the THS.

A 230 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time and is greater than 90% on their spare game while being almost 100% on corner pins.

A 215 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time but is around 60% on their spares and 75% on corner pins.

A 200 average bowler today us probably someone who strikes 50-60% of the time but is 50% or less on spares and corner pins.

All 3 bowlers, can shoot a lights out game, but the 230 guy covers his spares while the other 2 miss them.

I don't think the 230 guy out strikes, the others that often, he covers his corners.




ithinkican

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2012, 02:08:56 PM »
90% of 230 or 240???? who the hell would do something that dumb!!!!! not a single scratch bowler would have any type of a level playing field. imagine a 180 average bowler shooting something over 240, which by the way is extremely easy.. the objective of the 90% of 220 handicap levels the playing field level so amateurs, such as yourself, can stand a chance. 90% of 225 is the most any handicap league should ever be unless the lowest average in that league is over 210. it is not 90% of 230 or 240 because the curve of advantages are steeper rather than it being a level playing field. a level playing field is how a bowling center operates to conduct good business. if that 180 bowler bowled over a 220, which is extremely easy by the way, no one unless you have tons of handicap would stand a chance. a scratch bowler would have to bowl better that walter ray and earl anthony every game to even come close to standing a chance in that type of handicap tournament... think logically amateur.
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txbowler

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2012, 02:22:18 PM »
Playing Devil's advocate here...you are a legit 200-210 average bowler on THS.  In the Dallas area at a tournament, your 7 opponents in a bracket could consist of

Chris Barnes - Top 5 bowler in the world
Derek Eoff (now in Wisconsin so probably not now)
Chris Johnson (former PBA Rookie of the year - 240 average)
Paul Fleming - recent PBA touring pro
Dino Castillo - current PBA touring pro
Wes Malott - top 10 PBA touring pro

along with several dozen other DFW bowlers who average 240+.

So I'm not going to criticize a guy for wanting a few pins against these guys.  And yes they do enter every bracket.  And I no, I do not expect a legit 210 average bowler to bowl Chris Barnes heads up scratch unless they WANT to.  He will lose 90% of the time.

Why would the 210 donate.  Even at with handicap, the guy will lose to Barnes 60-70% of the time.  Is that not good enough.  Is the 210 guy only supposed to win 5% of the time?  What is acceptable?

90% of 230 or 240???? who the hell would do something that dumb!!!!! not a single scratch bowler would have any type of a level playing field. imagine a 180 average bowler shooting something over 240, which by the way is extremely easy.. the objective of the 90% of 220 handicap levels the playing field level so amateurs, such as yourself, can stand a chance. 90% of 225 is the most any handicap league should ever be unless the lowest average in that league is over 210. it is not 90% of 230 or 240 because the curve of advantages are steeper rather than it being a level playing field. a level playing field is how a bowling center operates to conduct good business. if that 180 bowler bowled over a 220, which is extremely easy by the way, no one unless you have tons of handicap would stand a chance. a scratch bowler would have to bowl better that walter ray and earl anthony every game to even come close to standing a chance in that type of handicap tournament... think logically amateur.