BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Dogtown on October 22, 2012, 09:00:34 AM
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Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets. Before you answer, here is my problem.
The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220. Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could. And they should have, and here's why. If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230. If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219. Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.
No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.
Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.
My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game. So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.
Any thoughts.
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Thats not fair to the scratch bowler. What about the 180 avg bowler who shoots 240 and ends up with 280. Why would you take away sticks from one bowler when you adding sticks to another. At the end of the day, its all about stepping up. Nothing is given and the 230 avg bowler still has to go out and shoot 230 or better. The 210 avg bowler shot 210 and gets sticks so there's nothing really to complain about.
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A 180 average bowler is rarely going to shoot 240. That's why they average 180. Same with a 230 average bowler. You average 230 because you have the skill-set to do so. I would even go as far to say that the 230 average bowler has even a bigger advantage in tournaments because they have the skill-set to adjust to different conditions.
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Duh the 230 average bowler has the advantage. They're a better bowler. That's how sports work!!! Do you think the 180 average bowler should have the advantage?
Handicap isn't made so that the 180 average bowler can win. It's made so that SOMETIMES he can compete with people WAY out of his league.
I can't believe this is even a discussion. Give me a break. If you lose to a better bowler, it's because HE'S BETTER. Do you want to beat him? Then practice as much as him. Put in as much time and effort as him and then be better than him.
Handicap is designed to help even the odds, not make it so whoever bowls closest to their average wins.
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DOGTOWN .. I've been arguing your point on this site for years! I agree with you 100%. Don't remember when but ABC had come out with something about handicap .. don't recall exactly what they stated but I think it was 100% of 300 .. GOOD LUCK!
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Simple solution, the handicap base used should be above the highest average.
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Lesson Learned. Don't get in brackets set up this way. These brackets were clearly created so the top average bowlers would win automatically. You might as well just called it a scratch bracket with "plenty of donators".
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wow I think ive heard it all , so let me get this straight
if I shoot 230 u want to penalize me by taking pins away. so remind me again
what is the incentive for me to have practiced enough to get better
and average 230+ and wheres the incentive for you to get better as a 180 bowler ?
the answer on both sides IS THERE ISNT ANY INCENTIVE ! that is what is killing our sport.
i ran into this situation in a lil different way this weekend in a sweeper. no brackets but the main tourney itself. i found my self giving a friend of mine 20 pins a game because he bowls in a house that is VERY tough and he averages 195. when he bowls on a regular THS like myself he averages 230. and his response was HEY im just going by the rules . but he knows i shouldn't be spotting him pins. Handicap needs to be fixed for sure. this is just one example
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Even simpler solution: practice.
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Better solution: Quit complaining because "you" personally whether a scratch bowler or handicap bowler got beat.
If a handicap bowler beats a scratch bowler - HE'S BAGGING
If a scratch bowler beats a hdcp bowler - DON"T LET THE SCRATCH BOWLERS IN THE HDCP BRACKETS
It seems, everyone who freaking enters brackets at league or tournaments looks at them as income. I have news for you, so do the 7 OTHER people who entered them. 7 of you lose.
If you get beat, you lost. Don't come on this board and whine like a baby about it.
Go find you a pacifier to suck on instead.
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Think of all the handicapped tournaments you've bowled in. Who generally wins? Every time I bowl KOH or some crap like that I get screwed by the 180-200 bowler getting a crap load of pins! A 180 avg bowler gets 36 STICKS A GAME!!!! If I shoot 250, 250, 250=750 that's a good set and would lose to a 180 going 215,214,214 + 108 of handicap= 751. That is why I try to steer clear of handicapped tourns and such and why I always get in as many brackets as possible to even out. There's always some way to complain that someone is getting an advantage. My thought is "Shut up and bowl"
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Most of the handicap tournaments in my area are rolled on sport shots and most of the 230 guys average 180 or lower on them so the hadicap bowlers crush the scratch guys.Replying to the poster of this topic the tournament director should adjust the handicap percentage up to 230 or higher,but heres something alot of people don't consider about 230 average bowlers(most of their average comes from one big game most of the time) You can shoot 279 211 200 and that's a 230 average,i see this all the time in league with the guys who average 230 one big game makes there average. Does this really count as a 230 average when the bowler only shot one game over 230?
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Most of the handicap tournaments in my area are rolled on sport shots and most of the 230 guys average 180 or lower on them so the hadicap bowlers crush the scratch guys.Replying to the poster of this topic the tournament director should adjust the handicap percentage up to 230 or higher,but heres something alot of people don't consider about 230 average bowlers(most of their average comes from one big game most of the time) You can shoot 279 211 200 and that's a 230 average,i see this all the time in league with the guys who average 230 one big game makes there average. Does this really count as a 230 average when the bowler only shot one game over 230?
However you avg 230, youre still avging 230. Whether you go 230,230,230 or 190,200,300, youre still avging 230. And if youre doing it consistently, then how can criticize that? Lets try to not belittle someone else's accomplishments. Again, end of the day, that person is avging big for a reason. Handicap is in place to even the field, that is all and thats all it should be. Handicap is always a touchy subject but not the problem, nor scratch bowlers doing what theyre supposed to do. Which is strike... A LOT! Can get mad at a bowler for doing what they are supposed to do.
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Yes a 230 average is just that when three games are combined but with the nature of brackets a 230 average don't mean a thing and most of the time shooting one big game in brackets. Mean nothing
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Just don't get in brackets.
That way you break even every time.
That's my philosophy.
Seems to work for me.
Only time I will get in brackets is at Nationals.
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There is another reason things won't be changing soon:
Tournament directors want all of the scratch bowlers in as many brackets as possible. Think about the last handicap tournament you went to. If you told all of the scratch bowlers they couldn't get in the handicap brackets, then you would have a lot fewer brackets. Many scratch bowlers look to brackets as a source of income and try to get into as many brackets as possible. I have seen people in as many as 150 brackets (scratch and handicap) for a single 3-game shift of a tournament. So that equals at least 150 x $5.00 (or whatever the typical cut is for the bracket organizer). There goal isn't to make it as fair as possible, but to find a way to get as many brackets going as possible to make as much money as possible.
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I don't mind scratch bowlers in hdcp. brackets, they have a hdcp too. its just 0.
What is funny is those are the same scratch bowlers who will whine and complain about handicap and sandbaggers beating them in the tournament or league. yet they don't think twice about going against them in the hdcp. brackets.
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When you enter a handicap tournament, you should know exactly what you are getting into. There is going to be chance that someone with a low average is going to score big. If that tournament lays down any Typical House Shot, then its a definite guarantee that many bowlers are going to score big. You just have to be prepared.
Any tournament trying to adjust handicap for "sandbagging" or "that low average bowler throwing big" is going to fail. Handicap should be set at highest average of entering bowler. Percentage should be no lower than 90%.
Big games are part of today's bowling. Just look at the pros. You see a pro throwing a 150 game then come back and throw 230 and 240 games. The average bowler can do this too. Throw a 140 then throw 190 or 210.
Now my only issue about handicap is the scores over 300. I actually think there should be a cap on handicap score. Once you hit 300, that is it. You get no more pins for the game.
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I agree that there should a 300 cap on all bracket scores.
My other point, is that there should be no whining or bitching when you lose.
If you get beat, man up and take the loss. Don't complain about your fellow bowler who entered the bracket assuming they would win too.
No, excuses. The sun didn't get in your eyes. Doesn't matter if your opponent got 5 brooklyns and you stoned 5 eight pins. They knocked more pins (maybe with handicap) than you did which is the goal.
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+1 with Heap and tx.
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this may have already been said but were there scratch brackets available? if not what do you want scratch bowlers to do? not have a chance to make extra money on the side while everyone else gets to? thats not fair. im with johnP.....raise the handicap base to higher than the high average
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I've always felt that the 180 average bowler (to use the earlier example) has a greater opportunity to bowl over their average. This is especially true if that bowler happens to be good at managing their average. Yea, there out there. There are a lot of honest bowlers, but there are those that manage to bowl 21 or 24 games and set lower average and walk in and shoot over. It is difficult as a tournament director to manage these situations. After all, you are in it to make money too. As far as the 230 average bowlers, we see a few of these but they are a minority. I would say the 210 to 220 have a fair representation and even more in the 200 to 210. I don't discriminate the guys above the handicap number and at times these guys will dominate the brackets. I see just as many of the lower average bowlers come in and shoot a great set and win everything they entered. Yes, there are more of the high average bowlers that walk in and say put me in every bracket, a lot more than handicap bowlers for sure. One thing I try to do is encourage my big guns to all bowl the same squads so there are a lot of scratch brackets and not as many handicap in those squads. These guys want the competition so given the chance they will bowl the big money squads. Most tournament directors don't go to the trouble to do this or have the connections to spread the word as to when to schedule to take advantage of the money if it is what they are looking for. You have to work with the entries you have and these days it is not getting any easier to fill your squads.
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why not just get better? that is how i looked at it. now that i average 230, i have to be honest with you. most people put their game faces on in tournaments and it is a lot harder to win brackets with zero handicap than it is to win with handicap
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Good comments Tex. It is difficult getting bowlers for tournaments. Tournament directors try to set up tournaments in a way to attract the most bowlers. Set handicap based on 200 and no lower average bowlers show up. Set it at 240 and no high average bowlers show up. You can't set it to the highest because you don't know who the highest will be.
Pick tournaments to bowl in based on what you feel the most comfortable with. And spend money knowing there is a chance you walk out with nothing. If you win or break even, then it was a good day. But if you lose, just chalk it up to experience and get ready for the next tournament.
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My thought when I posted this was that handicapped brackets are for you average bowler to be able to compete. I didn't think it was fare that the 230 scratch bowler was given such an advantage because the handicap was based on 220.
The other solution would be to raise the handicap to be 90% of 230 or 240. I know www.virtualtournaments.com had do that early on for that exact reason. Thanks for the comments.
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The only reason scratch bowlers get into handicap brackets is to make some money. If it is that much of an issue, then the tournament director should not allow scratch bowlers in handicap brackets.
But really that is the only way to make some money. At any given handicap tournament there is very few scratch brackets, and a ton of handicap.
But that is gambling, dont put the money up if you are affraid you are going to lose it. Thats just the way it is. I have lost countless brackets to handicap, and I dont care. He beat me, thats all there is, I could care less what his average is. Most of the time, I dont even look.
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I have seen very good and some very ignorant comments in this thread. I have a few comments of my own that may fall into one or both of these catagories :).
First off, handicap is not given to give anyone an "advantage" it is designed to help level the playing field and allow bowlers of different skill levels to compete against one another. So in this case, the 230 average bowlers competed better and won the money, it is not always the case and I would contend that this scenario happens less than 50% of the time. If you try to outlaw "scratch" bowlers from the handicap brackets, all you are going to do is run your tournament out of business. You will lose the higher average bowlers, because why compete when there is no chance at added money to help offset the costs of the tournament. By the time you are finished you don't have enough entrants to make running the tournament worthwhile, because more higher average bowlers bowl tournaments than they typical 180 average bowlers.
Second, if you really want to make it "fair", get rid of handicap altogether. Run two sets of brackets 200 and under, 201 and over and make them all scratch. Then no complaining about who has what perceived advantage. Just bowl and the best bowlers win, period. The 180 average bowler doesn't have to compete against a 230 average bowler either.
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I also think that part of the issue is that the bowler of today has evolved somewhat due to the THS.
A 230 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time and is greater than 90% on their spare game while being almost 100% on corner pins.
A 215 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time but is around 60% on their spares and 75% on corner pins.
A 200 average bowler today us probably someone who strikes 50-60% of the time but is 50% or less on spares and corner pins.
All 3 bowlers, can shoot a lights out game, but the 230 guy covers his spares while the other 2 miss them.
I don't think the 230 guy out strikes, the others that often, he covers his corners.
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90% of 230 or 240???? who the hell would do something that dumb!!!!! not a single scratch bowler would have any type of a level playing field. imagine a 180 average bowler shooting something over 240, which by the way is extremely easy.. the objective of the 90% of 220 handicap levels the playing field level so amateurs, such as yourself, can stand a chance. 90% of 225 is the most any handicap league should ever be unless the lowest average in that league is over 210. it is not 90% of 230 or 240 because the curve of advantages are steeper rather than it being a level playing field. a level playing field is how a bowling center operates to conduct good business. if that 180 bowler bowled over a 220, which is extremely easy by the way, no one unless you have tons of handicap would stand a chance. a scratch bowler would have to bowl better that walter ray and earl anthony every game to even come close to standing a chance in that type of handicap tournament... think logically amateur.
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Playing Devil's advocate here...you are a legit 200-210 average bowler on THS. In the Dallas area at a tournament, your 7 opponents in a bracket could consist of
Chris Barnes - Top 5 bowler in the world
Derek Eoff (now in Wisconsin so probably not now)
Chris Johnson (former PBA Rookie of the year - 240 average)
Paul Fleming - recent PBA touring pro
Dino Castillo - current PBA touring pro
Wes Malott - top 10 PBA touring pro
along with several dozen other DFW bowlers who average 240+.
So I'm not going to criticize a guy for wanting a few pins against these guys. And yes they do enter every bracket. And I no, I do not expect a legit 210 average bowler to bowl Chris Barnes heads up scratch unless they WANT to. He will lose 90% of the time.
Why would the 210 donate. Even at with handicap, the guy will lose to Barnes 60-70% of the time. Is that not good enough. Is the 210 guy only supposed to win 5% of the time? What is acceptable?
90% of 230 or 240???? who the hell would do something that dumb!!!!! not a single scratch bowler would have any type of a level playing field. imagine a 180 average bowler shooting something over 240, which by the way is extremely easy.. the objective of the 90% of 220 handicap levels the playing field level so amateurs, such as yourself, can stand a chance. 90% of 225 is the most any handicap league should ever be unless the lowest average in that league is over 210. it is not 90% of 230 or 240 because the curve of advantages are steeper rather than it being a level playing field. a level playing field is how a bowling center operates to conduct good business. if that 180 bowler bowled over a 220, which is extremely easy by the way, no one unless you have tons of handicap would stand a chance. a scratch bowler would have to bowl better that walter ray and earl anthony every game to even come close to standing a chance in that type of handicap tournament... think logically amateur.
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One more reply here that will probably comes across as non-caring or a-hole but someone has to say it in my opinion.
180 vs. 240 average bowler in hdcp bracket
I'll be nice and only do 80% diff.
so 180 guy gets 48 pins.
If you are a 240 average bowler, that means that you can adjust, change hand positions, brought at least 3-4 balls with you to the tournament. You are effing good.
You have a bad game (by your standards) and shoot 225.
The 180 guy shoots his average. Plus his hdcp = 228.
I'm sorry, you lost. You are 15 pins under your average. You should lose.
You don't get bonus pins for being good.
You don't get to win most of your brackets just because you are effing good.
It's gambling....you can lose.
Every bowler who enters a bracket, enters because they think they will make money. Why else would they.
And yes, in most tournaments with HDCP brackets, you will run across the "average manipulators". Don't whine about it. You know they are there. You took the risk. If you lose, just tuck your tail and leave. They have been there since forever, and I doubt they are going anywhere.
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Keep in mind if it is brackets or the tournament the 180 average bowlers is still bowling against the 230+ average bowler. So the brackets are only a smaller version of bettering on the tournament.
Also keep in mind leading the tournament in the top 10 positions are all bowlers at 216 or less.
In the top 57 positions there are only 13 bowlers at 220 or better and 29 at less then 200. So I would say the below 220 bowlers are doing better then the 220+ are for the tournament and if they choose to get in brackets would be making money there as well.
The actual positions and average are currently
1.208
2.216
3.189
4.184
5.202
6.192
7.200
8.175
9.206
10.194
You can bet if those bowlers were in handicap brackets they didn't lose much. I think part of it may have to do with the lack of lower average bowlers getting in the handicap brackets. At 80 or 90% of 220 the higher average bowlers has an advantage. That can quickly change depending on the condition. I would say the tournament results so far show that easily.
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So is there a base number that would make everyone happy. Maybe 233 should be the mark for today's game (700 series, I know its actually 699)? Maybe 220 is just little too low and 240 is too high.
Someone averaging 238 entering a tournament where handicap base is set at 90%of 233. Is giving those 5 sticks per game a big deal? If that bowler bowls his average for the tournament its a scratch score of 714.
Is it a problem that person wins over someone else with a 180 average (47 hdcp) and throwing a scratch series of 570 (711 hdcp series).
I understand one person just threw their average and their opponent threw 10 pins over.
Or is this too much, and that 5 pins should matter giving the 180 average bowler now a handicap of 52 and a handicap series of 726, thus winning.
This is the argument. I can see it both ways.
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Trash Heap,
I think your 233 is probably the correct average to base it off of taking the current state of today's bowling into consideration.
We know that bowlers who average more than that, are probably bowling at super great walls of china which do exist but are not at every city and town across the USA.
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Here's an EXAMPLE of two people I bowl with:
Phil averages 235. Melissa averages 170. The majority of Phil's games are going to be between 210 & 250. Melissa will shoot anywhere from 150 to 190. YES, both could have higher and lower games, but the majority will be in that range of their average. Right?
In handicapped brackets based on 90% of 220: Phil gets zero, Melissa gets 45 Pins. If Phil shoots his average 235, Melissa has to shoot 191 (21 pins above her average) to beat him. That's at the top of here range for her average. If Phil shoots 215 (20 pins below his average), Melissa still has to shoot 171 (1 pin above her average) to win.
In this scenario who would your put your money on? I would take Phil all day long.
Now, let's do 90% of 240. Phil actually gets 4 pins. Melissa gets 63 pins. If Phil shoots his average, he will score 239; Melissa would have to shoot 177 (7 pins over average) to beat him. If Phil shoots 215 (20 below his average). his score would be 219. Melissa would have to shoot 157 (13 below average) to beat him.
Who would you put your money on now. It's a closer call and could go either way.
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My point is basing the handicap on 220 gives an advantage to your high average bowlers. Now, everyone at the tournament I mentioned knew what they were getting into before they put their money in. I just think with todays higher average bowlers, the handicap needs to be raised.
It's no different that when we went from 200 to 220 in the late 90's and 2000's. The game has changed.
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My point is basing the handicap on 220 gives an advantage to your high average bowlers. Now, everyone at the tournament I mentioned knew what they were getting into before they put their money in. I just think with todays higher average bowlers, the handicap needs to be raised.
It's no different that when we went from 200 to 220 in the late 90's and 2000's. The game has changed.
Still sounds like whining by handicap bowlers. I run handicap brackets in my Monday Night League with avgs ranging from 230, 220(myself), all the way down to 140. The system is 90% of 220. 90% of the time when i shoot avg and I lose. Thats the nature of the beast. The shot isnt the easiest but scoreable. The same way I've shot 260 and lost in my handicap bracket to someone avging 175 and shot 230. You're still receiving pins to level the playing field as a handicap bowler, giving the potential to shoot over 300 and beat any scratch bowler. Again, its the nature of the brackets, get over it and bowl better. You cant lock out scratch bowlers or create a bigger advantage for handicap bowlers. You'll have no money in the brackets as risk will outweigh reward and eventually will have none.
What you are describing is what happening in one of the bigger leagues in my area. They went to a 90% of 230 because the shot was more scoreable and now give scratch bowlers the opportunity to get handicap. Scratch bowlers are not on all the time. They struggle at times as well. Also take into account that at 90% of 230, 200-215 have the opportunity for 30 more pins a set. Do you really want to give bowlers in that bracket who have the potential to shoot a set if they matchup in that particular shot?
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Scratch bowlers are not on all the time. They struggle at times as well.
If a scratch bowler is not "ON", and cannot hit their average, they deserve to lose. You don't get a free pass for an off week. GIVE ME A BREAK. What is it with this entitlement BS over the average league bowler who makes up 75% of bowling population.
Also, why is the focus on get better? 40 year olds who have averaged 180 for the last 20 years are always going to average 180. They are not magically going to put in 2 years of work to become scratch bowlers. They are what they are.
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I also think that part of the issue is that the bowler of today has evolved somewhat due to the THS.
A 230 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time and is greater than 90% on their spare game while being almost 100% on corner pins.
A 215 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time but is around 60% on their spares and 75% on corner pins.
A 200 average bowler today us probably someone who strikes 50-60% of the time but is 50% or less on spares and corner pins.
All 3 bowlers, can shoot a lights out game, but the 230 guy covers his spares while the other 2 miss them.
I don't think the 230 guy out strikes, the others that often, he covers his corners.
What if we say the 230 guy strings strikes better than the 215 guy! I believe it has very little to do with spares my man.
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My point is basing the handicap on 220 gives an advantage to your high average bowlers. Now, everyone at the tournament I mentioned knew what they were getting into before they put their money in. I just think with todays higher average bowlers, the handicap needs to be raised.
It's no different that when we went from 200 to 220 in the late 90's and 2000's. The game has changed.
The fact is it's easier for a handicap bowler to shoot more than 10 pins over their average to cover that based on 220 thing! Like i said before a 230 average doesn't mean the 230 average guys shoots 230 every game. If the 230 guy shoots 215 220 268 which is over a 230 average he probably loses his butt in handicap brackets that night
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your phil and melissa example is lame. this is the adult league now. unless on a challenging pattern anyone could shoot 300 at any given time.. if your melissa was to shoot an average phil game on that 230 240 bs your talking about, not a single scratch bowler on the planet could beat her because the highest they could bowl is 300.... plus there are a total of 60 to 70 different possible scores that melissa could bowl that would make her the winner no matter what phil bowled, even if he bowled a 300. phil would not be able to mess up at all on any given game to even think about winning....... BY THE WAY THIS ISNT PRESCHOOL.. this is the REAL world. the strong and knowledgeable always win. if you are having such a hard time with the 90% of 220. get better and learn what it takes to average 230.... better yet ill tell you exactly what it takes to average 230. stop bitching, listen to people that average 230 and not someone who doesnt even average over 210, and the most important part. STOP COMPLAINING, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, WATCH A VIDEO OF HOW YOU BOWL AND ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO FIX YOUR MISTAKES THEN PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE again and again. AND WHEN YOUR DONE WITH ALL THIS BITCHING AND COMPLAINING LIKE A WOMAN. GO PRACTICE SOME MORE. AND ONE DAY YOU COULD AVERAGE 230. ITS NOT THAT HARD IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PROPER PEOPLE AND STOP THINKING YOU KNOW EVERYTHING about bowling. those people that average 230 are actually being nice by letting you even have any kind of handicap. if they didnt you wouldnt stand a chance and they would squash you like a bug on a windshield.
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Scratch bowlers are not on all the time. They struggle at times as well.
If a scratch bowler is not "ON", and cannot hit their average, they deserve to lose. You don't get a free pass for an off week. GIVE ME A BREAK. What is it with this entitlement BS over the average league bowler who makes up 75% of bowling population.
Also, why is the focus on get better? 40 year olds who have averaged 180 for the last 20 years are always going to average 180. They are not magically going to put in 2 years of work to become scratch bowlers. They are what they are.
The point of my post wasnt to bring sympathy to scratch bowlers. As I already said, if you lose, you lose. Brackets have 8 slots and 1 winner. That is all. There is no sense of entitlement. However it just sounds like a bunch of complaining. You put your money in knowing this and agree to the terms. You also have a sense of a who's in the bracket and what they're capable of. Im just saying that every bowler has great days and bad ones, even the guys who avg 230 can shoot 150 and one the other side a 150 avg bowler can shoot 230. Some posters make it seem like the scratch bowler is shooting 850 everytime they get in. Someone came in, had a good look, shot big, won big. It happens get over it.
Also your content avging 180 for 20 yrs thats on you. If thats your choice then so be it. Theres nothing wrong with that. Come in bowl and have fun. But when it comes to competing, dont knock guys who've decided that they want to get better and do more with the sport and win money. The knowledge is there to get better, coaching, books, and best of all practice if they want to take advantage of it.
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Lol! +1. May not be preschool but some are whining like it is.
your phil and melissa example is lame. this is the adult league now. unless on a challenging pattern anyone could shoot 300 at any given time.. if your melissa was to shoot an average phil game on that 230 240 bs your talking about, not a single scratch bowler on the planet could beat her because the highest they could bowl is 300.... plus there are a total of 60 to 70 different possible scores that melissa could bowl that would make her the winner no matter what phil bowled, even if he bowled a 300. phil would not be able to mess up at all on any given game to even think about winning....... BY THE WAY THIS ISNT PRESCHOOL.. this is the REAL world. the strong and knowledgeable always win. if you are having such a hard time with the 90% of 220. get better and learn what it takes to average 230.... better yet ill tell you exactly what it takes to average 230. stop bitching, listen to people that average 230 and not someone who doesnt even average over 210, and the most important part. STOP COMPLAINING, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, WATCH A VIDEO OF HOW YOU BOWL AND ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO FIX YOUR MISTAKES THEN PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE again and again. AND WHEN YOUR DONE WITH ALL THIS BITCHING AND COMPLAINING LIKE A WOMAN. GO PRACTICE SOME MORE. AND ONE DAY YOU COULD AVERAGE 230. ITS NOT THAT HARD IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PROPER PEOPLE AND STOP THINKING YOU KNOW EVERYTHING about bowling. those people that average 230 are actually being nice by letting you even have any kind of handicap. if they didnt you wouldnt stand a chance and they would squash you like a bug on a windshield.
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There are probably examples of both. But I am one of the former. I have booked in the two teens the last 5 years. I am left handed. I tracked my 7 pin spare percentage the last 2 years. I am at 57%. Not what would me average be if I was a 90% seven pin spare shooter? Much higher. I struggle with not ripping the ball on spares and uncupping my wrist. It is what it is. I strike as much as the 220-230 guy. I just can't make a 7-pin consistently.
I also think that part of the issue is that the bowler of today has evolved somewhat due to the THS.
A 230 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time and is greater than 90% on their spare game while being almost 100% on corner pins.
A 215 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time but is around 60% on their spares and 75% on corner pins.
A 200 average bowler today us probably someone who strikes 50-60% of the time but is 50% or less on spares and corner pins.
All 3 bowlers, can shoot a lights out game, but the 230 guy covers his spares while the other 2 miss them.
I don't think the 230 guy out strikes, the others that often, he covers his corners.
What if we say the 230 guy strings strikes better than the 215 guy! I believe it has very little to do with spares my man.
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There are probably examples of both. But I am one of the former. I have booked in the two teens the last 5 years. I am left handed. I tracked my 7 pin spare percentage the last 2 years. I am at 57%. Not what would me average be if I was a 90% seven pin spare shooter? Much higher. I struggle with not ripping the ball on spares and uncupping my wrist. It is what it is. I strike as much as the 220-230 guy. I just can't make a 7-pin consistently.
I also think that part of the issue is that the bowler of today has evolved somewhat due to the THS.
A 230 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time and is greater than 90% on their spare game while being almost 100% on corner pins.
A 215 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time but is around 60% on their spares and 75% on corner pins.
A 200 average bowler today us probably someone who strikes 50-60% of the time but is 50% or less on spares and corner pins.
All 3 bowlers, can shoot a lights out game, but the 230 guy covers his spares while the other 2 miss them.
I don't think the 230 guy out strikes, the others that often, he covers his corners.
What if we say the 230 guy strings strikes better than the 215 guy! I believe it has very little to do with spares my man.
How often are you shooting 260+ on a league night TX? The big game really matters and if your'e throwing a turkey and getting tapped and then throwing a double and getting tapped you can't shoot the big game with that happening. You may throw 7 to 8 strikes but if they are broken up too much you will not be able to shoot the big game.
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On a night when I carry, I probably average 225-235. On nights when I don't or cannot strike a lot, I average 190-205. It works out to about 215 for the year.
Our house only had 1 800 last year and 6 300's. I had one. So it's not super house china. The carry at the house is ok, not great.
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your phil and melissa example is lame. this is the adult league now. unless on a challenging pattern anyone could shoot 300 at any given time.. if your melissa was to shoot an average phil game on that 230 240 bs your talking about, not a single scratch bowler on the planet could beat her because the highest they could bowl is 300.... plus there are a total of 60 to 70 different possible scores that melissa could bowl that would make her the winner no matter what phil bowled, even if he bowled a 300. phil would not be able to mess up at all on any given game to even think about winning....... BY THE WAY THIS ISNT PRESCHOOL.. this is the REAL world. the strong and knowledgeable always win. if you are having such a hard time with the 90% of 220. get better and learn what it takes to average 230.... better yet ill tell you exactly what it takes to average 230. stop bitching, listen to people that average 230 and not someone who doesnt even average over 210, and the most important part. STOP COMPLAINING, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, WATCH A VIDEO OF HOW YOU BOWL AND ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO FIX YOUR MISTAKES THEN PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE again and again. AND WHEN YOUR DONE WITH ALL THIS BITCHING AND COMPLAINING LIKE A WOMAN. GO PRACTICE SOME MORE. AND ONE DAY YOU COULD AVERAGE 230. ITS NOT THAT HARD IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PROPER PEOPLE AND STOP THINKING YOU KNOW EVERYTHING about bowling. those people that average 230 are actually being nice by letting you even have any kind of handicap. if they didnt you wouldnt stand a chance and they would squash you like a bug on a windshield.
Your whole argument is LAME!! The whole point of handicapped brackets is to allow for lower average bowlers to compete with each other and not have scratch bowlers come and run the tables. According to your third grade mentality, everybody should practice to be a scratch bowler regardless of age, gender or physical ability, which would eliminate the need for handicapped brackets. Also, because you obviously struggle with math, a 170 average bowler would score 233 if they shot their average if the handicap was 90% of 240. So the scratch bowler would still have a fair chance to win without shooting 300.
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Trash Heap,
I think your 233 is probably the correct average to base it off of taking the current state of today's bowling into consideration.
We know that bowlers who average more than that, are probably bowling at super great walls of china which do exist but are not at every city and town across the USA.
Yeah. I kind of was thinking back in past years a 600 series was the mark. To me I hear more guys that look for that 700 series mark today.
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you didnt understand what i said. and your calling me the third grader. I said if she shoots 230. meaning scratch. then her handicap game would be around 290. if you do some math and add her scratch total to her handicap total you would see this. 230+60=290. look at the ratios here man. she would beat him no matter what if she bowled a game over 237. even if he were to bowl a 300. the ratio of her winning no matter what if it was 90% of 230 would balance itself out so that she has a massive advantage over him. once you do the math the percentage is way off. And math does not lie. he would win only 32.7844444% of the time and she would win the other 67.2155556% of the time. the objective of the 90% of 220 is to BALANCE THE PLAYING FIELD, which gives the handicap bowlers a more level playing field unless the opponent is averaging over 235. higher average bowlers have a higher percentage of winning in the 90% of 220 but only by 6.1873737373737%. this set up does not to produce a substantial advantage for one person over the other...................................... if the league as a wholes averages over 210. then the 225 or 230 might be considerable then the math works itself out about the same as the 90% of 220..... you just got told.....
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This is in reference to a tournament and not league. Yes the numbers show that handicap is a crutch and doesn't favor the lower average bowler. I've not seen a lot of 170 average people men or women shoot 230 in tournaments or at their local house.
80% of 220
average.......................pins over average to shoot 220
130 gets 72 pins 18 pins
150 gets 56 pins 14 pins
170 gets 40 pins 10 pins
190 gets 24 pins 06 pins
210 gets 08 pins 02 pins
In tournament and league the lower your average the higher you have to score to reach 220. If you average 220 you would be stupid not to load up in handicap brackets.(especially in tournaments) Because if you shoot your average you will win some money.
In tournaments where the shot is likely to be not as easy depending on the shift you bowl, and spare shooting and strikes become more difficult it favors the higher average bowler.
Many of the tournaments I go to you see plenty of 220+ bowlers getting into handicap brackets for that exact reason.
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I understand you now, ithinkican. Do you not agree that if a 170 average bowler shoots 230 scratch, they should win the majority of the time? You have to look at more than just ratios and consider probability. How often does that 170 average bowler shoot 230 if they truly average 170. (I realize people get lucky, people sand bag, etc). It's NOT that often.
Virtualtournaments.com changed their rules. Now, handicap is based on 90% of the highest average in the tournament. That's not a bad way to do it, either.
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+1 kidlost2000
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To the original poster. I'm not sure you understand the meaning of "handicap brackets." This is not like the men's room vs the ladies room. Scratch brackets are brackets where everyone bowls scratch, handicap brackets are brackets were handicapped is used, and NOT specifically for "handicap bowlers." All handicap brackets are meant for, is to give the lower average guy an OPTION to earn a little extra money.
And I can tell from experience, very seldom if ever does a scratch bowler dominate the handicap brackets simply by hitting his average.
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Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets. Before you answer, here is my problem.
The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220. Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could. And they should have, and here's why. If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230. If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219. Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.
No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.
Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.
My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game. So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.
Any thoughts.
How about instead of complaining about scratch bowlers, you go practice or take some lessons and improve your game so you don't have to rely on handicap?
I'm sick of people who want more handicap instead of striving to become better so they get less handicap.
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"Virtualtournaments.com changed their rules. Now, handicap is based on 90% of the highest average in the tournament. That's not a bad way to do it, either."
That really isn't a bad idea.
And yes scratch brackets are for lower average bowlers to get in to compete as well and doesn't eliminate higher averages by any means. At 80% of 220, it does favor the higher averages. The numbers show that. 220 is more likely to shoot their average then 150 is to bowl 14 pins above it. Basing a tournament or brackets off of the idea of making the handicap off the highest average does show a lot more flexibility.
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Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets. Before you answer, here is my problem.
The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220. Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could. And they should have, and here's why. If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230. If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219. Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.
No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.
Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.
My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game. So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.
Any thoughts.
How about instead of complaining about scratch bowlers, you go practice or take some lessons and improve your game so you don't have to rely on handicap?
I'm sick of people who want more handicap instead of striving to become better so they get less handicap.
Why do you assume they aren't a scratch bowler?
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NoseofRI, I do understand. 15 year ago the tournament brackets were 90% (or 80%) of 200. Why did that change? Because with todays equipment, the averages went up. I'm saying that 220 is no longer enough. Would you get in handicap brackets today if they were still based on 200 (Assuming you're not a 220+ average bowerl)? What if Chris Barnes was in them? You would be crazy to. Just give him the money and walk away. In my area we see that level of bowlers taking avantage of the 220 cap and carrying a lot of money out the door when they leave.
And I disagree. Handicap IS specifically for lower average bowlers to be able to compete with higher average bowlers, including the scratch bowler.
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Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets. Before you answer, here is my problem.
The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220. Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could. And they should have, and here's why. If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230. If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219. Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.
No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.
Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.
My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game. So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.
Any thoughts.
How about instead of complaining about scratch bowlers, you go practice or take some lessons and improve your game so you don't have to rely on handicap?
I'm sick of people who want more handicap instead of striving to become better so they get less handicap.
Thanks, I'm already there. That was not my point. But not everybody can "go practice" and become a scratch bowler. Some people are older, not as physical or whatever. Do we say "to hell with them"? Step up or step out. Are they not allowed to compete? I thought that was the whole point of handicapped brackets.
Sometimes I think the scratch bowlers don't like it because it's taking away their advantage which means they can't make money easily. Whatever!!
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Dogtown, I'm unclear of what you disagree with, because I never said anything about handicap bowlers competing with scratch bowlers.
My point is that handicap brackets were created to give lower average bowlers a better option for getting into side pots, instead of scratch brackets being the only option.
My other question to you... is the tournament itself based off of the same handicap? If so, then my next question is, why are you only questioning the handicap brackets?
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I am a scratch bowler averaging 220+ and the only reason i get in handicap brackets is because there are no more scratch brackets where i live, this is in league play but I bowl several tournaments and there are 3 times more handicap brackets then there are scratch, so im forced to play handicap. Also all of you are comparing legitimate average handicap vs scratch bowlers, well what happens when a bagger enters the brackets but thats for another thread.
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I havent read every post but I have to ask this one question and I am sorry if this is repeated.
Why is it that in bowling we penalize bowlers who put in the time and effort to get better and understand the game better???? Why should I/every other person who wants to and is getting better have to deal with this??? Heaven forbid someone who is actualy better wins. Who would of thought of the proposterous idea???
When it comes to the argument of hdcp of difference in 220, 210 etc and there is someone who averages over that, the fact of the matter that a 160,170 etc avg bowler can gain 20 pins a game easier than someone who averages 230 etc. It takes an extra strike here or an extra spare here with good count. its not an extra double ontop of already throwing 8 strikes a game. Even at higher levels doubles arent always easy. if you average over the hdcp limit thats great it means (hopefully) they are that much better. They deserve the advantage. They are better otherwise why else get better because if not you get more and more and more and more pins.
so then you change the hdcp to 240/250 and the 180 average bowler still compians becuase the 230 guy gets pins now. How fair is that. You complian when hes over the hdcp line and then complain when hes under it and gets pins.
In the state that our spot is in now you also want to limit what events and side events bowlers can get in. This wont be the answer becuase those tournaments are based on averages. So to get around this (not that I would ever do this but I know there are a lot of people out there that would) by making their averages lower for a few year and still come in to bowl and win.
Just my 2 cents
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The idea of basing handicap off the highest average makes the most sense.
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Interesting topic.
MOST of the time, the handicap should be 90% of the highest entering average for the event.
However, I bowled a city tournament today. We have a guy around here at 250+. This tournament didn't use a THS, so I don't expect to see too many people averaging 230 or 240. The handicap brackets were at 90% of 230. I didn't enter the handicap brackets, but did the scratch and MADE $25 after my entry. Ho Hum and I had the 2nd highest sets each squad.
If you make the handicap brackets too easy then you water down the ability of the 230 average bowlers. Sorry, facts. People should want to bowl well and be rewarded.