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General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: J_w73 on March 23, 2009, 06:41:27 AM

Title: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: J_w73 on March 23, 2009, 06:41:27 AM
What differences / benefits would there be on a short pin to pap (1 - 2"), vs a rico drill. My rico would be 5.5 inches pin to pap.

I have never really had a ball with the pin shorter than leverage.  I am considering this drill for a really smooth medium oil ball..
will this smooth oil wet/dry?  Is this good for sport shots?
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: pin-chaser on March 23, 2009, 03:25:50 PM
I have two Rico Layouts and they react more like my balls did in the 70's, smoother arc'ing and not aggressive off the backend. I LIKE IT ALOT but I do sacrifice some entry angle and on the fresh that is cool...it still strikes. But when the oil is pushing down, I really loose hit albeit I live in the pocket. I dont have a RICO punched into a "super ball" (ie. a VG or Cell Rogue but I am thinking about it).

Short pin to pap will give you less flare and an earlier hook albeit not jumpy off of the dry as would a longer pin. What you gain is more axis rotation (for a longer time down the lane). (This produce more hold for me on the lane since the ball is spinning longer down the lane in sacrfice of some send)

As for this difference I hope the above helps.
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: Juggernaut on March 23, 2009, 03:30:56 PM
For me, short pin-to-pap balls are weaker on the backend than RICO drills. I can use RICO drills on fresh shots and short pin-to-pap balls with flying backends.

  Both tend to be smooth through the fronts for me.
--------------------
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Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: J_w73 on March 23, 2009, 04:18:47 PM
quote:
For me, short pin-to-pap balls are weaker on the backend than RICO drills. I can use RICO drills on fresh shots and short pin-to-pap balls with flying backends.

  Both tend to be smooth through the fronts for me.
--------------------
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that is what I was thinking.. I have a rico'd mammoth and the thing is super smooth but it will have a big backend if the lane has fresh oil and fresh backends..

so you would say that short pin to pap balls are for down and in shots or straight up the arrows with a consistant hook/roll throughout the length of the lane??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180



Edited on 3/23/2009 4:20 PM
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: Juggernaut on March 23, 2009, 04:33:46 PM
quote:
so you would say that short pin to pap balls are for down and in shots or straight up the arrows with a consistant hook/roll throughout the length of the lane??


 Not exactly, but that's close.  For me, short pin-to-pap balls are overall smoother than RICO drills.  Whether you can play down-and-in depends a lot on oil pattern and ball surface/cover strength.

 You can still cover quite a few boards with a short pin-to-pap ball, but its OVERALL reaction would be smoother than the same ball with a RICO.

  I like shorter pin-to-pap balls when there is plenty of oil in the fronts but crazy, flying backends or bone dry outsides that have to be bumped.  They help me blend out the wet/dry, over/under you get on drastic lane conditions and get consistent, dependable reads.

 If I had two identical balls, one drilled RICO and the other drilled 2 X 2, I would use the RICO if the 2 X 2 wouldn't turn the corner/finish/carry and use the 2 X 2 if the RICO was finishing a bit too hard, leaving fours, nines,and wrap tens.
--------------------
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Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: J_w73 on March 23, 2009, 05:07:53 PM
quote:
quote:
so you would say that short pin to pap balls are for down and in shots or straight up the arrows with a consistant hook/roll throughout the length of the lane??


 Not exactly, but that's close.  For me, short pin-to-pap balls are overall smoother than RICO drills.  Whether you can play down-and-in depends a lot on oil pattern and ball surface/cover strength.

 You can still cover quite a few boards with a short pin-to-pap ball, but its OVERALL reaction would be smoother than the same ball with a RICO.

  I like shorter pin-to-pap balls when there is plenty of oil in the fronts but crazy, flying backends or bone dry outsides that have to be bumped.  They help me blend out the wet/dry, over/under you get on drastic lane conditions and get consistent, dependable reads.

 If I had two identical balls, one drilled RICO and the other drilled 2 X 2, I would use the RICO if the 2 X 2 wouldn't turn the corner/finish/carry and use the 2 X 2 if the RICO was finishing a bit too hard, leaving fours, nines,and wrap tens.
--------------------
Norm Duke was right

Good transactions list in my profile

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got it.. cool..
thank you
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180



Edited on 3/23/2009 5:38 PM
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: J_w73 on March 23, 2009, 05:54:17 PM
In your opinion what determines the hook and shape in a short pin to pap ball.

Is it just the low rg value , the cover, and of course the release and revs??
basically .. Can you turn any ball into a controlled smooth roll with a short pin to pap drill??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: Jay on March 23, 2009, 10:10:55 PM
quote:
Can you turn any ball into a controlled smooth roll with a short pin to pap drill??



I don't think so.  My Avalanche is drilled 2.5" and has a pretty strong move off the dry.  Assume it's OOB.
--------------------
The Arsenal:

Rival
Counter Strike
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Maxim
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: jbruno6 on March 23, 2009, 10:33:45 PM
just wanted to let you guys know that this is a great thread, more info in 5 posts than my entire "Lastest posts" list.
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Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: bluerrpilot on March 23, 2009, 11:35:20 PM
For me the difference is where I want my breakpoint. A 2" PtoP will have a breakpoint much closer to the arrows than my Rico ball.

I would use surface and cover strength to determine amount of hook on either ball.
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"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: n00dlejester on March 23, 2009, 11:42:43 PM
quote:
just wanted to let you guys know that this is a great thread, more info in 5 posts than my entire "Lastest posts" list.
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+1
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Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: n00dlejester on March 23, 2009, 11:43:26 PM
Would one say a 1 or 2 inch pin to PAP would result in a hook/set reaction?
--------------------
Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: JustRico on March 24, 2009, 08:52:29 AM
Here are a few explanations of pin to PAP distances as well as some more info on the 'Rico' layout.

The reason why the 'Rico' layout tends to be stronger in the back part of the lane is the placement of the weight hole. By placing the weight hole at 6 3/4" from the pin, creates the strongest amount of asymmetry in the ball. Asymmetry in the ball can help create continuity in the back end.

Pin to PAP placements are as such (devoid of surface prep and a weight hole):

Placing the pin at leverage or 3 3/8" from the PAP allows the highest amount of flare potential in the core. Flare potential is dependant on core strength or RG differential. Leverage or 3 3/8" pin placements generally will create more overall hook, front to back, more so than side to side. A leverage or 3 3/8" pin placement does not tend to create an angular reaction, as most think due to this being considered the strongest layout.
Any deviation from leverage, changes flare potential, as well as reaction shape.
Placing the pin closer to PAP, decreases flare potential and creates an earlier reaction on the lane and a smoother back end reaction.
Placing the pin farther from the PAP and closer to the track, decreases the flare potential and creates a later reaction and a smoother back end reaction.

Hope this makes sense and clears up questions that have been asked.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: Juggernaut on March 24, 2009, 09:53:24 AM
quote:
In your opinion what determines the hook and shape in a short pin to pap ball.


  There is no one mitigating factor that you can point your finger at and say "this is the reason". Surface finish and lane condition play major roles in ball reaction.

quote:
Is it just the low rg value , the cover, and of course the release and revs??


 Like I said, it is not any ONE of these, but ALL of these working in conjunction that builds your total reaction.


quote:
basically .. Can you turn any ball into a controlled smooth roll with a short pin to pap drill??


 NO, but you CAN make any ball smoother and more controlled than IT would have been. A low RG drilling ( short pin-to-pap ) will be smoother and more controlled than a high RG drilling ( longer pin-to-pap ), given all other factors are the same. You can smooth out a pearl cover ball more than it would have been by drilling it short pin-to-pap, but the pearl will still read the dry more "suddenly" than a solid and may still appear to have more reaction, depending on the lane condition and the drilling on the other ball.

  As justrico said, 3 3/8 is the maximum leverage point, creating the most flare and reaction.  Moving the pin away from that in EITHER DIRECTION decreases the flare potential and the overall reaction shape of the ball with shorter pin-to-pap's being earlier/smoother and longer pin-to-pap's creating lengthier reaction points.

  To me, shorter pin-to-pap's are good on conditions where there isn't lots of "free hook" and you don't want to "go away from the pocket" with your launch angle ( as long as the heads hold up ) while longer pin-to-pap's will let me move in and wheel it a bit when conditions call for it, using surface finishes to compensate for oil amounts ( dull/solid for heavy, shiny/pearl for light )

--------------------
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Edited on 3/24/2009 9:55 AM
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: Juggernaut on March 24, 2009, 10:12:14 AM
quote:
Would one say a 1 or 2 inch pin to PAP would result in a hook/set reaction?
--------------------
Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.



 NO. Just having a short pin-to-pap WILL NOT guarantee a hook/set reaction. From what I have experienced, a "hook/set" reaction is a function of a matchup between a bowler, a ball, a drilling, and a lane condition.

 I, personally, have NEVER been able to create a "hook/set" type reaction ( on purpose at least ) with my release. My natural release is reasonably strong and creates continuity and when I try to create the "hook/set" reaction, all I accomplish is creating a "hook/rollout" that is D.O.A. in the pocket.

 The best way I can describe what I call a "hook/set" reaction is when a players rotation is just strong enough to turn the ball at the proper angle into the pocket at the breakpoint, then let the ball continue through the pins at its own momentum.  My release isn't that balanced and tends to make the ball drive too hard at times. I tend to leave too many solid 9's and wrap 10's when "hook/set" guys are blowing racks up.
--------------------
Norm Duke was right

Good transactions list in my profile

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Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: J_w73 on March 24, 2009, 10:15:07 AM
quote:
Here are a few explanations of pin to PAP distances as well as some more info on the 'Rico' layout.

The reason why the 'Rico' layout tends to be stronger in the back part of the lane is the placement of the weight hole. By placing the weight hole at 6 3/4" from the pin, creates the strongest amount of asymmetry in the ball. Asymmetry in the ball can help create continuity in the back end.

Pin to PAP placements are as such (devoid of surface prep and a weight hole):

Placing the pin at leverage or 3 3/8" from the PAP allows the highest amount of flare potential in the core. Flare potential is dependant on core strength or RG differential. Leverage or 3 3/8" pin placements generally will create more overall hook, front to back, more so than side to side. A leverage or 3 3/8" pin placement does not tend to create an angular reaction, as most think due to this being considered the strongest layout.
Any deviation from leverage, changes flare potential, as well as reaction shape.
Placing the pin closer to PAP, decreases flare potential and creates an earlier reaction on the lane and a smoother back end reaction.
Placing the pin farther from the PAP and closer to the track, decreases the flare potential and creates a later reaction and a smoother back end reaction/b].
Hope this makes sense and clears up questions that have been asked.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico


regarding the longer pin to pap."later reaction and smoother backend" .. is that correct.?? I thought skid/flip layouts usually have a longer pin.. is this from the pin above the fingers.. How /Why does a pin in this position flip or be more angular on the backend. I know it is because the holes take weight out of the side of the core.. this raises the rg and also increases the rg differential.. so what is causing the big backend??  the higher rg.. or the increase rg differential and more flare.??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: njv29 on March 24, 2009, 02:38:43 PM
quote:
regarding the longer pin to pap."later reaction and smoother backend" .. is that correct.?? I thought skid/flip layouts usually have a longer pin.. is this from the pin above the fingers.. How /Why does a pin in this position flip or be more angular on the backend. I know it is because the holes take weight out of the side of the core.. this raises the rg and also increases the rg differential.. so what is causing the big backend??  the higher rg.. or the increase rg differential and more flare.??



The ball goes farther down the lane before hooking as the pin is placed farther from the axis because the core is standing straighter up and down. As the ball rolls, it tries to reach stability (which is achieved when the core is laying on its side, completely parallel to the lane surface). The farther the pin is from the axis, the farther the distance the core must tip to reach stability becomes. Greater distance to travel = Longer time to make the trip.

As you move the pin closer to 6 3/4" from your PAP, the core actually will become more stable off your hand than it is when it is closer to leverage. Remember that track flare is caused by "wobble" induced by the core's offset from parallel or perpendicular to the lane out of your hand. At 6 3/4" the core is standing straight up and down, so in effect it will not turn over as the ball spins around it's axis. This leads to little to no track flare, which produces a very smooth reaction as the ball rolls over the same oil ring all the way down the lane, and the core never "tips" (or does so very slowly).
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: J_w73 on March 24, 2009, 02:45:31 PM
quote:
Here are a few explanations of pin to PAP distances as well as some more info on the 'Rico' layout.

The reason why the 'Rico' layout tends to be stronger in the back part of the lane is the placement of the weight hole. By placing the weight hole at 6 3/4" from the pin, creates the strongest amount of asymmetry in the ball. Asymmetry in the ball can help create continuity in the back end.

--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico


so if I had a short pin symetrical ball with the pin close to centergrip that didn't need a weight hole that ball would be more even rolling and hooking throughout the lane???
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: Juggernaut on March 24, 2009, 03:02:23 PM
quote:
quote:
Here are a few explanations of pin to PAP distances as well as some more info on the 'Rico' layout.

The reason why the 'Rico' layout tends to be stronger in the back part of the lane is the placement of the weight hole. By placing the weight hole at 6 3/4" from the pin, creates the strongest amount of asymmetry in the ball. Asymmetry in the ball can help create continuity in the back end.

--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico


so if I had a short pin symetrical ball with the pin close to centergrip that didn't need a weight hole that ball would be more even rolling and hooking throughout the lane???


 Than an identical ball with an idenical drill with identical surface with the only difference being a weighthole to make it RICO? YES

 Than an identical ball with identical surface, but a longer pin out distance and the pin higher above the midline than it has? YES

 Than an identical ball with identical surface drilled with a shorter pin-to-pap? NO
--------------------
Norm Duke was right

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Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: J_w73 on March 24, 2009, 03:09:28 PM
thank you.. sums it up nicely.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: JustRico on March 24, 2009, 07:44:39 PM
To clarify what I said in regards to pin farther from the PAP being longer and smoother, a ball that is able to retain energy easier, i.e. getting down the lane easier, generally has the potential to more angularity. The issue here is that bowlers relate reaction to back end reaction. It has to be looked at along the lines of overall reaction, not merely what the ball does the last 20 feet. A pin farther from the PAP is generally allowed to play closer to the friction, thus giving it the illusion that when it sees friction in the back part of the lane, it reacts stronger.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico
Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: nord on February 09, 2019, 09:20:57 PM
Below is a link to a video I took showing the same ball with two different layouts so you can see the difference in reactions.

The ball used is the Brunswick Magnitude 055.
Ball one has the pin at 3 3/8", a Leverage layout.
Ball two has the pin directly in the PAP.

What you will see is the Leverage layout is early, very early, and heavy rolling with very little backend reaction. This layout requires me to stay very straight and direct with the ball as it will not move much in the back since all the hook is in the front of the lane. The 3 3/8" layout is a control layout for me.

Pin in PAP is long and snappy.
The ball is not flaring, it has more rotation, and saves it all for the back where it suddenly transitions into a roll and snaps fast.

Here is the comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44ed-LUrGRQ

Title: Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
Post by: Geigs on February 09, 2019, 11:51:11 PM
Great post, and insight from all you guys. One thing I will add to this is be careful drilling 3 3/8 leverage, strong drilling pin to pap on or near the Val. I did that with a hammer scandal, and it flares around the whole ball clipping the thumbhole on the last two flares. You can here the thumping of the ball rolling over the thumb five feet before the pins.