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Author Topic: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?  (Read 6522 times)

johns811

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Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« on: May 02, 2022, 02:55:55 PM »
This might sound kind of silly. I probably bowled  the best I have ever executed (not scored) and shot 782 4 9pin spares, 1 open. I compared my printout to some of my 800's from 20 years ago and the main reason I came up short of 800 was 9/ in the 10th frame game 1 and 2 (10 pin errr). So I started to think why is there basically a bonus for striking in 10th and 11th. If a game was 12 frames 300 would still be max. We already have an easy house shot, reactive balls, 2 handed 20 mph crankers, virtually no awards anymore. How about give the lesser player a change at 2 more frames. Why does an open in the 10th have to be so penalizing. Just a thought...
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milorafferty

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2022, 03:15:10 PM »
Because those are the rules of the game?  ???
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SVstar34

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2022, 03:17:23 PM »
This has been thought of with the WBT scoring system, except it's just 10 frames.

An open is penalizing no matter where it is. It's exactly why spares are important.

Front 9, 9- is 268. Your idea is Front 9, 9-, XX for 288?

Edited: realized my math was off
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 03:25:36 PM by SVstar34 »
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TWOHAND834

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2022, 03:19:12 PM »
Quote from: johns811 on May 02, 2022, 02:55:55 PM
This might sound kind of silly. I probably bowled  the best I have ever executed (not scored) and shot 782 4 9pin spares, 1 open. I compared my printout to some of my 800's from 20 years ago and the main reason I came up short of 800 was 9/ in the 10th frame game 1 and 2 (10 pin errr). So I started to think why is there basically a bonus for striking in 10th and 11th. If a game was 12 frames 300 would still be max. We already have an easy house shot, reactive balls, 2 handed 20 mph crankers, virtually no awards anymore. How about give the lesser player a change at 2 more frames. Why does an open in the 10th have to be so penalizing. Just a thought...

You know there is that PGA golf tournament that uses the Stableford scoring system where a birdie counts as +2 points and an eagle I believe is +5 points?  Wonder if they could ever incorporate that scoring system into bowling.  A strike would count 5 points and a spare is 2 points but an open is worth -5.  If they can somehow do a 40 frame game, maybe they could do that.  Just a thought.
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Steven Vance
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TWOHAND834

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2022, 03:20:06 PM »
Quote from: SVstar34 on May 02, 2022, 03:17:23 PM
This has been thought of with the WBT scoring system, except it's just 10 frames.

An open is penalizing no matter where it is. It's exactly why spares are important.

Front 9, 9- is 279. Your idea is Front 9, 9-, XX for 299?

Wasnt Dom Barrett credited with a televised 300 using the WBT scoring system?
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Steven Vance
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Bowler19525

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2022, 04:31:14 PM »
Quote from: johns811 on May 02, 2022, 02:55:55 PM
This might sound kind of silly. I probably bowled  the best I have ever executed (not scored) and shot 782 4 9pin spares, 1 open. I compared my printout to some of my 800's from 20 years ago and the main reason I came up short of 800 was 9/ in the 10th frame game 1 and 2 (10 pin errr). So I started to think why is there basically a bonus for striking in 10th and 11th. If a game was 12 frames 300 would still be max. We already have an easy house shot, reactive balls, 2 handed 20 mph crankers, virtually no awards anymore. How about give the lesser player a change at 2 more frames. Why does an open in the 10th have to be so penalizing. Just a thought...

If a game was 12 individual frames, 300 would not be the max.  The potential for 3 strikes in the current "self-contained" 10th frame allows those shots to be scored in the way traditional bowling scores are currently calculated.  If you make those shots their own frames, then they would get added up individually.

You would have a 270 in the 9th.  Then you bowl a strike for frame 10, the next 2 would then get added to that.  If you then struck in the 11th and 12th, you would have a 300 in the 10th, then you would have to figure out how to score the strikes for the 11th and 12th.  Do you get 10 extra for each?  If so, you max out at 320.  Do you get 20 for the 11th and then 10 for the 12th?  In that case you max out at 330.

1 2 3  4 5 6 7 8 9    10
X X X X X X X X X  X X X= 300

1 2 3 4  5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
X X X X X X X X X X  X  X = 320 or 330?
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bowling_rebel

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2022, 09:50:58 PM »
This makes my head hurt.

There are only 10 frames.

A strike is 10 pins plus the total of next two shots.

So if you strike in 10th. The next two shots are not new frames, they are simply used to calculate how many pins you get for the 10th frame strike.

If you had a 12 frame game, then what do you do with the "12th" frame, make a strike count as 30? Or the other option, give the person 2 fill shots to calculate the 12th frame. Then you are back where started and someone will complain that their strikes for the 13th frame don't count as much.

People think traditional scoring is weird. Well try to deviated from it and it's just more weird.
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bradl

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2022, 11:17:50 PM »
Quote from: bowling_rebel on May 02, 2022, 09:50:58 PM
This makes my head hurt.

There are only 10 frames.

A strike is 10 pins plus the total of next two shots.

So if you strike in 10th. The next two shots are not new frames, they are simply used to calculate how many pins you get for the 10th frame strike.

If you had a 12 frame game, then what do you do with the "12th" frame, make a strike count as 30? Or the other option, give the person 2 fill shots to calculate the 12th frame. Then you are back where started and someone will complain that their strikes for the 13th frame don't count as much.

People think traditional scoring is weird. Well try to deviated from it and it's just more weird.

Then it's safe to say that you'd be completely screwed if you went by Petraglia.

BL.
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Bowls 300s

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2022, 08:25:21 AM »
The THS is more than enough help for lessor players.

Once a week players with 210 plus averages is todays game, not yesterdays. One offs shooting way more honor scores than ever, their brother and mailman too.

These the reasons why a beer mug is all that can be afforded for an honor score award not to mention 6.5 million less card holders paying dues that cover those costs.

First generation or second generation lane machines simply did not have the technology that 3rd gen machines have (any machine past 90s). The reactive cover-stock is given way too much credit over soft conditions for prostituting honor scores. Jets and logic based machines becoming main stream same time reactive covers did. Early ninety reactive cover-stock just another coverstock but a governing body still unwilling to protect the sports integrity and further closing the ave gaps between pros and once a week players instead their chosen path. Its not I shot a 300 anymore, its I shot my first one now.

Bill Taylor had it all right, saw it all coming. Sport needs more like him.



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avabob

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2022, 01:45:31 PM »
Soft conditions haven t gotten any better with modern lane machines.  Modern balls didn't raise averages so much but they did drastically increase award scores.  The problem is that the same balls that increase carry and thus award scores also destroy the soft pattern much more rapidly.

I have been bowling competitively for over 50 years.  There have always been plenty of house shooters averaging as much as tour players. 
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dizzyfugu

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2022, 05:13:04 AM »
A couple of years ago there has been a discussion among German official bowling institutions to generally introduce the „World Bowling Scoring“ system to make the game "more attractive" and make calculating scores for occasional (hobby) bowlers easier.

A game consists of ten frames and has a simplified scoring system, so that there's no additional count on following frames:
open = pin count
spare = pin count + 10
strike = 30

Maximum is still 300, but this system IMHO over-rewards single strikes and inflates scoring (what pleases hobby bowlers. though); no idea what became of the idea, I personally reject it.
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DizzyFugu ~ Reporting from Germany

Bowls 300s

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2022, 07:30:36 PM »
Quote from: avabob on May 04, 2022, 01:45:31 PM
Soft conditions haven t gotten any better with modern lane machines.  Modern balls didn't raise averages so much but they did drastically increase award scores.  The problem is that the same balls that increase carry and thus award scores also destroy the soft pattern much more rapidly.

I have been bowling competitively for over 50 years.  There have always been plenty of house shooters averaging as much as tour players.

Bob,

How can you state there is no difference between what a Brunswick B-90, Century 100 and any machine post early 90s. The similarity in these 3 types stop at all being automatic lanes machines.

Soft conditions and inflated scoring started 15 -18 years before reactives, it started the second epoxy base coat hit mid 70s.. Newer ball technology at least feels like an honest evolution over yellow dot bleeders. Todays lane machines THS is child's play and feels like a waste of technology and additional 25k cost over wick based and non-logic based conditioner transfer systems.
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bowling_rebel

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2022, 08:31:43 PM »
Quote from: dizzyfugu on May 05, 2022, 05:13:04 AM
A couple of years ago there has been a discussion among German official bowling institutions to generally introduce the „World Bowling Scoring“ system to make the game "more attractive" and make calculating scores for occasional (hobby) bowlers easier.

The idea here is that IQ is dropping so much, that bowling has to be dumbed down to get people into it.

"I would go bowling, but scoring is too complicated. Even with it being computer automated" said no one ever.
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avabob

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2022, 11:25:39 AM »
Bowls:  you are absolutely correct on large scale lane blocking and the evolution of the modern machine. It did come out of the switch to hard lane finishes in the 70s.  The thing that changed with the introduction of resin was ability of the balls to radically and quickly destroy an oil pattern.  It is too bad because the modern lane machines provided the opportunity to create patterns of varying degrees of challenge.  It does little good when high rev players are able to throw 300 grit surface balls and quickly carve up a pattern.  I dint understand how USBC can be fixated on softness and ignore the impact of aggressively altering the ball surface
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Juggernaut

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Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2022, 02:05:44 PM »
 Only time will tell what changes bowling has gone through will be seen as “good” or “bad”.

 Mo Pinel often said that he got into the technical part of designing bowling balls when he realized they were being designed to be “easy to make” instead of being designed to help bowlers. Some of his creations greatly influenced bowling’s evolution, but were they actually “good for the sport?” THAT is a matter of opinion, and there are people on both sides of the argument.

 Lane surfaces, pin voids, kickbacks, ball technology, oiling machine technology, lane conditioner technology, coaching. These have ALL changed, and made the sport we have today VASTLY different to the one that Ed Kawolics, Carmen Salvino, and Andy Veripapa played back in the 40’s and 50’s.

 Should scoring change? Maybe, but only if it NEEDS to. Changing it just to change it is not an improvement.

 Improvement is beneficial. Change simply for the sake of change is not. Where you draw the line can be a matter of opinion.
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