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General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: johns811 on May 02, 2022, 02:55:55 PM

Title: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: johns811 on May 02, 2022, 02:55:55 PM
This might sound kind of silly. I probably bowled  the best I have ever executed (not scored) and shot 782 4 9pin spares, 1 open. I compared my printout to some of my 800's from 20 years ago and the main reason I came up short of 800 was 9/ in the 10th frame game 1 and 2 (10 pin errr). So I started to think why is there basically a bonus for striking in 10th and 11th. If a game was 12 frames 300 would still be max. We already have an easy house shot, reactive balls, 2 handed 20 mph crankers, virtually no awards anymore. How about give the lesser player a change at 2 more frames. Why does an open in the 10th have to be so penalizing. Just a thought...
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: milorafferty on May 02, 2022, 03:15:10 PM
Because those are the rules of the game?  ???
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: SVstar34 on May 02, 2022, 03:17:23 PM
This has been thought of with the WBT scoring system, except it's just 10 frames.

An open is penalizing no matter where it is. It's exactly why spares are important.

Front 9, 9- is 268. Your idea is Front 9, 9-, XX for 288?

Edited: realized my math was off
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 02, 2022, 03:19:12 PM
This might sound kind of silly. I probably bowled  the best I have ever executed (not scored) and shot 782 4 9pin spares, 1 open. I compared my printout to some of my 800's from 20 years ago and the main reason I came up short of 800 was 9/ in the 10th frame game 1 and 2 (10 pin errr). So I started to think why is there basically a bonus for striking in 10th and 11th. If a game was 12 frames 300 would still be max. We already have an easy house shot, reactive balls, 2 handed 20 mph crankers, virtually no awards anymore. How about give the lesser player a change at 2 more frames. Why does an open in the 10th have to be so penalizing. Just a thought...

You know there is that PGA golf tournament that uses the Stableford scoring system where a birdie counts as +2 points and an eagle I believe is +5 points?  Wonder if they could ever incorporate that scoring system into bowling.  A strike would count 5 points and a spare is 2 points but an open is worth -5.  If they can somehow do a 40 frame game, maybe they could do that.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 02, 2022, 03:20:06 PM
This has been thought of with the WBT scoring system, except it's just 10 frames.

An open is penalizing no matter where it is. It's exactly why spares are important.

Front 9, 9- is 279. Your idea is Front 9, 9-, XX for 299?

Wasnt Dom Barrett credited with a televised 300 using the WBT scoring system?
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: Bowler19525 on May 02, 2022, 04:31:14 PM
This might sound kind of silly. I probably bowled  the best I have ever executed (not scored) and shot 782 4 9pin spares, 1 open. I compared my printout to some of my 800's from 20 years ago and the main reason I came up short of 800 was 9/ in the 10th frame game 1 and 2 (10 pin errr). So I started to think why is there basically a bonus for striking in 10th and 11th. If a game was 12 frames 300 would still be max. We already have an easy house shot, reactive balls, 2 handed 20 mph crankers, virtually no awards anymore. How about give the lesser player a change at 2 more frames. Why does an open in the 10th have to be so penalizing. Just a thought...

If a game was 12 individual frames, 300 would not be the max.  The potential for 3 strikes in the current "self-contained" 10th frame allows those shots to be scored in the way traditional bowling scores are currently calculated.  If you make those shots their own frames, then they would get added up individually.

You would have a 270 in the 9th.  Then you bowl a strike for frame 10, the next 2 would then get added to that.  If you then struck in the 11th and 12th, you would have a 300 in the 10th, then you would have to figure out how to score the strikes for the 11th and 12th.  Do you get 10 extra for each?  If so, you max out at 320.  Do you get 20 for the 11th and then 10 for the 12th?  In that case you max out at 330.

1 2 3  4 5 6 7 8 9    10
X X X X X X X X X  X X X= 300

1 2 3 4  5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
X X X X X X X X X X  X  X = 320 or 330?
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: bowling_rebel on May 02, 2022, 09:50:58 PM
This makes my head hurt.

There are only 10 frames.

A strike is 10 pins plus the total of next two shots.

So if you strike in 10th. The next two shots are not new frames, they are simply used to calculate how many pins you get for the 10th frame strike.

If you had a 12 frame game, then what do you do with the "12th" frame, make a strike count as 30? Or the other option, give the person 2 fill shots to calculate the 12th frame. Then you are back where started and someone will complain that their strikes for the 13th frame don't count as much.

People think traditional scoring is weird. Well try to deviated from it and it's just more weird.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: bradl on May 02, 2022, 11:17:50 PM
This makes my head hurt.

There are only 10 frames.

A strike is 10 pins plus the total of next two shots.

So if you strike in 10th. The next two shots are not new frames, they are simply used to calculate how many pins you get for the 10th frame strike.

If you had a 12 frame game, then what do you do with the "12th" frame, make a strike count as 30? Or the other option, give the person 2 fill shots to calculate the 12th frame. Then you are back where started and someone will complain that their strikes for the 13th frame don't count as much.

People think traditional scoring is weird. Well try to deviated from it and it's just more weird.

Then it's safe to say that you'd be completely screwed if you went by Petraglia.

BL.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: Bowls 300s on May 04, 2022, 08:25:21 AM
The THS is more than enough help for lessor players.

Once a week players with 210 plus averages is todays game, not yesterdays. One offs shooting way more honor scores than ever, their brother and mailman too.

These the reasons why a beer mug is all that can be afforded for an honor score award not to mention 6.5 million less card holders paying dues that cover those costs.

First generation or second generation lane machines simply did not have the technology that 3rd gen machines have (any machine past 90s). The reactive cover-stock is given way too much credit over soft conditions for prostituting honor scores. Jets and logic based machines becoming main stream same time reactive covers did. Early ninety reactive cover-stock just another coverstock but a governing body still unwilling to protect the sports integrity and further closing the ave gaps between pros and once a week players instead their chosen path. Its not I shot a 300 anymore, its I shot my first one now.

Bill Taylor had it all right, saw it all coming. Sport needs more like him.



Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: avabob on May 04, 2022, 01:45:31 PM
Soft conditions haven t gotten any better with modern lane machines.  Modern balls didn't raise averages so much but they did drastically increase award scores.  The problem is that the same balls that increase carry and thus award scores also destroy the soft pattern much more rapidly.

I have been bowling competitively for over 50 years.  There have always been plenty of house shooters averaging as much as tour players. 
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 05, 2022, 05:13:04 AM
A couple of years ago there has been a discussion among German official bowling institutions to generally introduce the „World Bowling Scoring“ system to make the game "more attractive" and make calculating scores for occasional (hobby) bowlers easier.

A game consists of ten frames and has a simplified scoring system, so that there's no additional count on following frames:
open = pin count
spare = pin count + 10
strike = 30

Maximum is still 300, but this system IMHO over-rewards single strikes and inflates scoring (what pleases hobby bowlers. though); no idea what became of the idea, I personally reject it.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: Bowls 300s on May 08, 2022, 07:30:36 PM
Soft conditions haven t gotten any better with modern lane machines.  Modern balls didn't raise averages so much but they did drastically increase award scores.  The problem is that the same balls that increase carry and thus award scores also destroy the soft pattern much more rapidly.

I have been bowling competitively for over 50 years.  There have always been plenty of house shooters averaging as much as tour players.

Bob,

How can you state there is no difference between what a Brunswick B-90, Century 100 and any machine post early 90s. The similarity in these 3 types stop at all being automatic lanes machines.

Soft conditions and inflated scoring started 15 -18 years before reactives, it started the second epoxy base coat hit mid 70s.. Newer ball technology at least feels like an honest evolution over yellow dot bleeders. Todays lane machines THS is child's play and feels like a waste of technology and additional 25k cost over wick based and non-logic based conditioner transfer systems.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: bowling_rebel on May 14, 2022, 08:31:43 PM
A couple of years ago there has been a discussion among German official bowling institutions to generally introduce the „World Bowling Scoring“ system to make the game "more attractive" and make calculating scores for occasional (hobby) bowlers easier.

The idea here is that IQ is dropping so much, that bowling has to be dumbed down to get people into it.

"I would go bowling, but scoring is too complicated. Even with it being computer automated" said no one ever.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: avabob on May 15, 2022, 11:25:39 AM
Bowls:  you are absolutely correct on large scale lane blocking and the evolution of the modern machine. It did come out of the switch to hard lane finishes in the 70s.  The thing that changed with the introduction of resin was ability of the balls to radically and quickly destroy an oil pattern.  It is too bad because the modern lane machines provided the opportunity to create patterns of varying degrees of challenge.  It does little good when high rev players are able to throw 300 grit surface balls and quickly carve up a pattern.  I dint understand how USBC can be fixated on softness and ignore the impact of aggressively altering the ball surface
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: Juggernaut on May 15, 2022, 02:05:44 PM
 Only time will tell what changes bowling has gone through will be seen as “good” or “bad”.

 Mo Pinel often said that he got into the technical part of designing bowling balls when he realized they were being designed to be “easy to make” instead of being designed to help bowlers. Some of his creations greatly influenced bowling’s evolution, but were they actually “good for the sport?” THAT is a matter of opinion, and there are people on both sides of the argument.

 Lane surfaces, pin voids, kickbacks, ball technology, oiling machine technology, lane conditioner technology, coaching. These have ALL changed, and made the sport we have today VASTLY different to the one that Ed Kawolics, Carmen Salvino, and Andy Veripapa played back in the 40’s and 50’s.

 Should scoring change? Maybe, but only if it NEEDS to. Changing it just to change it is not an improvement.

 Improvement is beneficial. Change simply for the sake of change is not. Where you draw the line can be a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: SG17 on May 16, 2022, 10:45:42 PM
this proposed alternative scoring sounds like the bowling version of "new" coke. 
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: Bowls 300s on May 20, 2022, 09:12:43 AM
Bowls:  you are absolutely correct on large scale lane blocking and the evolution of the modern machine. It did come out of the switch to hard lane finishes in the 70s. 

The thing that changed with the introduction of resin was ability of the balls to radically and quickly destroy an oil pattern. 

It is too bad because the modern lane machines provided the opportunity to create patterns of varying degrees of challenge. 

It does little good when high rev players are able to throw 300 grit surface balls and quickly carve up a pattern.  I dint understand how USBC can be fixated on softness and ignore the impact of aggressively altering the ball surface

Great points and I align with your stated views Bob.

On ball surfacing, hardness and our governing bodies guidance I guess I deflect back to my negative view of the ABC in general and their questionable motives. I hate every conditioning rulling they have made since 1980 and know they where influenced by proprietors so how can I trust a single test, study or decision they have made in regard to any equipment? Let alone trust they focus their attention on the real issue or see one you speak too?

My hope for a governing body is one that is transparent, independant so to act above approach and first job to maintain their sports integrity. So my view of how the USBC should act adds up to 40 plus years of failure but also maybe more importantly lack of vision.

I get a baseline for hardness and never any problem with their ruling there.
To your knowledge have they graphed a pattern with aggresively sanded or modern reactive coverstocks and compared? Pattern wear should shake out fast and approving any method, cover that creates rapid deteriontion / destruction of a pattern is an epic failure or further example of their bubbling oversight.

All that said fun to yak about and love this game as much as ever.


Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: Bowler19525 on May 20, 2022, 11:29:43 AM
USBC has done extensive studies on coverstocks, which resulted in the current limits on oil absorption rates.  USBC claims the absorption rate limits help preserve the lane condition.  Prevents balls from soaking up too much oil after repeated use, etc.

In terms of surface roughness, USBC will not approve balls with a roughness greater than 65 micro inches.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: avabob on May 20, 2022, 01:37:46 PM
Aggressive sanding not only blows up the pattern but is hard on the lane surface in terms if wear and tear.  Most synthetic surfaces more than 10 or 15 years old are in terrible shape at high lineage houses
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: bradl on May 20, 2022, 03:30:06 PM
this proposed alternative scoring sounds like the bowling version of "new" coke.

If that's the case, then could the Petraglia scoring system be considered the bowling version of Zima?

BL.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: MI 2 AZ on May 20, 2022, 11:27:24 PM


In terms of surface roughness, USBC will not approve balls with a roughness greater than 65 micro inches.

I don't understand the micro inches reference.  Per this site conversion, 65 micro inches is about 1.6 microns.

https://metric-calculator.com/convert-microinch-to-micron.htm

Then trying to convert the 1.6 microns to grit, it comes out to about 13,000 grit which I have not seen any sandpaper at that grit.

https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/article_details.php?id=1&article_name=Micron%20to%20Grit%20Conversion%20Calculator

So, if all of those conversions are correct, no bowling ball I own would pass USBC's  65 micro inches spec.

I know something is off, so could someone correct me?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: Bowler19525 on May 20, 2022, 11:47:57 PM
A chart I saw indicated that 65 micro inches was approximately 100 grit.  70 micro inches is 80 grit.  If the USBC is putting a limit at 65, they are essentially saying that a ball lower than 100 grit would not pass the approval process.

The chart showed a mirror finish as 4 micro inches, which would be fine since the USBC does not have a minimum surface roughness spec.

Could someone sand a ball with 40 grit sandpaper?  Sure they could.  But why would they?
Title: Re: Should bowling always be 12 frame game?
Post by: Bowls 300s on May 21, 2022, 11:01:26 AM
A chart I saw indicated that 65 micro inches was approximately 100 grit.  70 micro inches is 80 grit.  If the USBC is putting a limit at 65, they are essentially saying that a ball lower than 100 grit would not pass the approval process.

The chart showed a mirror finish as 4 micro inches, which would be fine since the USBC does not have a minimum surface roughness spec.

Could someone sand a ball with 40 grit sandpaper?  Sure they could.  But why would they?

Has a new ball ever been released close to max spec? Interested to know.

I don't know why the bulk of games getting bowled would require more than 400 grit and personally think 200 grit has no business hitting the lane. 200 grit is a starting place for a full resurface on a gnarly ball or old school ball tracks from wood lanes exhibiting a lot of feathering with grit between the maple.

That said in my different decades of lane conditioning my thought process when designing house lane maintence programs never aligned with any of the many head mechanics I've known. My mentalilty since late 70s is to condition for the "core base" of bowlers. So basically if its rec players for the day I laid it heavier but always provided squeaky clean back ends appropriate for the final stage of the balls flight and distance of that decision based off a lot of factors.

Its just a diffent game now. This oiling before league and only on lanes with league provide zero lane protection and todays THS good for 1 league session at best. This type of maintenace program is opposite of manufactures of lane beds if you pull the pdf's of both warranty and preventive schedules. Recreation centers have won, last 20 years of bowlers do not know that conditioning the whole house 1-3 times daily was the norm so accept what they know understandably. Rec centers not conditioning for 3 days is a joke and damaging to their investment and shows no pride in the primary product they are to provide.

My local Bowlero's are good for one thing, practice drills. Good news for me I need them.