Author Topic: Should PBA be allow to bowl against Avg Bowlers (Read 11853 times)

Zanatos1914 · « **on:** September 05, 2007, 12:13:52 AM »

Personally I have a problem with them bowling in our tournaments because the odds are in favor of the PBA in open lanes. They didn't get the title Professional Bowler for just being avg bowlers. Don't get me wrong because I have beaten some PBA but open play tournament should be off limits...

lsf_21 · « **Reply #46 on:** September 05, 2007, 05:34:41 PM »

why not just make it a rule that if you average 200 you cant bowl, sorry that you took the time to get better, were going to punish you and you cant bowl in the tournament.

yea that sounds fair

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dw23 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 05, 2007, 05:56:44 PM »

Phillip, we will have to agree to disagree on this . 90% of 220 may be enough for then to compete against me but not Norm Duke or Chris Barnes. USBC sanctioned tournaments for everyone, non-sanctioned make your own rules.

We do have tournaments where you can't bowl if you're over 210 unless you were a member before. That's okay with me although I can't bowl some of them.
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Thanks,
DW

Edited on 9/5/2007 6:10 PM

« **Reply #48 on:** September 05, 2007, 05:57:15 PM »

Boy, I've been gone half a day and look what I missed... Great discussion, and by and large I agree with Jeff Carter.

Every day I'm surrounded by bowlers who I feel are better and more experienced than I am. I love bowling against them. Just around the shop we've got two Roto staffers, two Storm staffers, and one Columbia staffer, and myself who just enjoys the chance to compete against the best.

Sometimes on the house shot I win; usually I don't, but I'm supposed to lose to these guys, therefore there's no pressure - except on them, because they aren't supposed to lose to "little old me". Besides, I really enjoy and admire the various ways they have of getting to the pocket. I'm like a sponge in that regard. Will you see me laying down 500 dollars to compete against this caliber of bowler? Probably not. I know my limitations (no talent, arthritic, past my prime, too). I don't fear the thought of losing one bit. It's just a poor investment on my part.

I really believe that bowling is still only 60 feet, and whoever figures out a way to "carry" first has a great chance, whether they be professional or amateur.

So to all us amateurs, relish the chance of competing and testing your inner (mental) game against the best. If you're intimidated, you have no chance and you should stay wherever your comfort zone is. I used to want the path of least resistance all the time, but after spending the summer on the 5 PBA patterns I have nothing but respect and admiration for the ones who can make it a profession.

To the better amateurs and the professionals, anytime you want to compete (and probably win) look me up. I'm game, even if I've got no game...

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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah

lsf_21 · « **Reply #49 on:** September 05, 2007, 06:00:15 PM »

quote:
quote:
...You can't tell me it's fair for the league bowler to bowl a local handicapped tournament against Walter Ray or Tommy Jones.

Uh, you are wrong. It is fair. In the short form tournament, the advantage that the best bowlers have is substantially offset by (a) the ease of scoring on adult bumper lanes (which tends to mask differences among good bowlers), (b) unfamiliarity with specific houses and conditions at the time of day folks bowl, and (c) sheer luck. In fact, there is a fair case to be made that a handicapped tournament (especially one with a high handicap percentage of a high entering number (such as 90% of 220) actually favors poorer bowlers as a group over better bowlers, certainly in the singles and all events. Oh, and lets not talk about sandbaggers, shall we...

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"Now lets see you do something really tough. Like getting up."

last year i bowled in out scholarship tournament with a 179 average, the handicap was bassed on 220. i won shooting 248 and 244 in the final 2 games winning by jsut a few pins, if i miss one sprare i was screwed, yes hanicap tournaments do help the poorer bowler.
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trash heap · « **Reply #50 on:** September 05, 2007, 07:34:52 PM »

quote:
Plus there's no real way to separate "equipment whores" from the honest weekend warrior from the national-level pro. They don't get different membership cards that say "PBA, but only for the cheap equipment".

Why is this an issue?

budcotten · « **Reply #51 on:** September 05, 2007, 08:08:00 PM »

I say y not, not everyone is on their game all the time. I mean if you win you can say, you beat a pro and even if it was an exempt bowler. Then you could say u beat some of the best in the world. If u get beat so what at least u know u got beat by someone that is probly far better then you. Every dog has their day how u gonna find out if u dont try and give it a chance.

dw23 · « **Reply #52 on:** September 05, 2007, 10:25:56 PM »

Look, I bowl against everyone but I put in at least 25 games a week. I have friends that can't do it and have no chance against an exempt bowler. I just think they should be able to compete against bowlers of their own skill level. You will neve get rid of sandbaggers but you can eventually weed them out. it happens every year at the Oklahoma USA Team Championships. Some does well and their avg is adjusted forever. They usually don't return. Problem solved.
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Thanks,
DW

Mike Austin · « **Reply #53 on:** September 05, 2007, 11:31:33 PM »

quote:
quote:
Plus there's no real way to separate "equipment whores" from the honest weekend warrior from the national-level pro. They don't get different membership cards that say "PBA, but only for the cheap equipment".

Why is this an issue?

Trash-

Those of us that are the weekend warriors, and bowl 5-6 or more regionals a year, are in the PBA for the competition, are proud to be PBA members, and support our respective regions. I/we feel that the people that are in the PBA just so they can receive discounted equipment cheapen the organization, and knock off some of the lustre associated with being a PBA member. Unfortunately, there are a number of these people. I feel that ALL PBA members should be required to bowl 2-3-4 regionals a year. I don't want some guy to be able to pay his $25 a month and say he is a member, get my same member benefits, and then do nothing to support the PBA. This will help increase entries at the tournaments also.

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Mike Austin · « **Reply #54 on:** September 06, 2007, 12:08:36 AM »

This may ramble a bit....

I can't let Jeff fight this fight mostly by himself. I have the exact same feelings, having been a PBA member for 20 years. Having been not allowed to enter some tournaments, bowl some leagues and such because I have had a PBA card. All the while, NEVER having bowled on the National Tour for a living. I wanted to, but never got the right circumstances that allowed me to bowl. Soo... I have been the "weekend warrior" bowling 6-8-10-12 regionals a year while having a full time job, bowling 1-5 leagues a week. Yet, there are people that don't want me to bowl, because I'm too good??? Because I pay money for the plastic card that lets me bowl in the regional tournaments? Profiling, you got that right! The same people that are going to slap me five during league night, but don't want me to be allowed to bowl the Saturday 6 gamer for $50???

Some of you are just not getting the picture right. Yes, there are 4000+ PBA members. There about 60 exempt players. The other 3940+ guys/gals have jobs and/or do not bowl for a living. Just regular folks. They bowl 0-15 regionals a year, but because they pay for the piece of plastic, some people don't want them to bowl the local scratch tournament. Nice...

I did not say that I have never bowled for a living. I have. About 90% of a 2.5-3 year stretch in the early '90s I did nothing but bowl. Leagues, sweepers, regionals, but not on tour or giant High Roller type events. I got layed off a couple contruction type jobs, so I bowled. Leagues for brackets, pot games, sweepers, whatever I could find, against whoever would bowl me. I DO NOT recommend this career path. I rarely had a sponsor. Wrote hot checks to bowl, bowled guys for $100 a game or more, and had $5 in my pocket. SERIOUSLY, THE LORD WAS WATCHING OVER ME!!! I never bounced a check, never missed a car payment, rent, utilities, and never got my butt kicked for not paying when I lost. Look for a job during the day, bowl all night, every night, somewhere... Had to have a girlfriend at the time help find me matches, tough to do.... (I remember subbing in a league to bowl brackets. Shot 299 in game 3, lost over half of 50 brackets, to a 300 that game. Chew on that when you gotta pay your rent)

Yes, leagues. A mixed league at the center I had my pro shop in for the last 10 years, asked me not to bowl in their league again, I bowled this league so I could bowl with my wife!! No other PBA members in the league. No other 200 average bowlers ON MY TEAM. We did not have a winning record in the league. I DID NOT GET IN ANY OF THE BRACKETS, EVER, SCRATCH OR HANDICAP!!! But "Mike, could you please not bowl next year, we feel you are scaring away other members of the league." That is fair, to who???

Jorge300- yeah buddy, I'm missing that league something fierce!!! Houston Scratch league, 22 teams, late, 4 members, 830 max, 25-50 brackets, eliminator, about 6-8 regional PBA members. A bunch of other good bowlers. I didn't have high average in the league, but I made money in brackets. NOT ONE PERSON WAS AFRAID OF ME. THEY WANTED TO SIDE BET ME!!! I'm not saying all of them were smart, now, but they had cajones!!

Now I'm bowling a 22 team, 5 member handicap league. 57 people shot 600 or better last week, first week. 854 was one of them. I shot 670. NO BRACKETS, NO ELIMINATOR, NO POTS, NO NOTHING, NO CAJONES! "We just don't do that here".

Just like Jeff, I've been around the block. Maybe a different block, but one just the same. For some idiotic reason, I never get tired of bowling, talking bowling, drilling balls, helping bowlers, helping bowling. Then so many of these same people want to figuratively spit in my face. What makes me want to keep this up???

I went to PBA school in Cleveland, Ohio in 1987. A number of the guys went to bowl pot games on the Wednesday night. My younger brother tagged along. The guys were lining up side bets, my brother over hears some of them saying "Don't bet that guy, he's from Texas!" (me). Didn't get one side bet. Pissed, I won all the games but one. We bowled anything, everything, didn't care who was bowling, what the lane conditions were. I got my a.. handed to me by Dennis Jacques at the Santa Claus open one year. Tough shot, magnesium pins, 175 was golden to make the next round. I was known as a big hook power player. I worried about leaving the 5-7 on this crap. Jacques is throwing around messenger pins like balsa wood. Got down the later rounds, all I could say is, "your GD awesome man! but, I'll get you another time" He say with his New York accent "You F'n Texans got some giant balls, you guys will bowl anybody, it don't F'n matter" What happened to those guys coming up after me. Are they all from South Dakota???

sorry rambling....
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Pinbuster · « **Reply #55 on:** September 06, 2007, 07:30:02 AM »

The only reason this is a big issue is because of money.

Bowling is one of the few competitions where amateurs play for money and professionals donâ€™t necessarily try to make their living in the game.

Take the overused comparison with golf.

Amateur golf tournaments cannot offer cash prizes and golfers who have declared themselves professionals can not play in them.

Amateur golfers can play in open/professional events but can not accept any prize money unless they declare themselves a professional BEFORE the competition begins.

Most members of the PBA are what I would call Quasi-Professionals. They have no real intention of making their living bowling and unfortunately the PBA really doesnâ€™t give many of them a way to make a living as a professional.

The PBA is struggling financially, I donâ€™t see them tightening the rules to eliminate the over 50% of their membership who are in it only be called a â€œprofessionalâ€ and not to act/compete like one.

Bowling has always been mired in gambling, hustling and money. It is much of the reason for its shady reputation. I donâ€™t see bowling getting away from these roots and a purer amateur/professional status.

All this being said, assuming you donâ€™t want to clean up the amateur status of bowling, then you have to accept that other than possibly national exempt PBA professionals you need to leave tournaments, leagues, sweepers, etc open to members of the PBA.

If you want to bowl for money then you need to take on all comers.

chrisleftwich · « **Reply #56 on:** September 06, 2007, 08:39:27 AM »

Mike,

Yeah our league is weak with the brackets, maybe me and you can start up brackets and have Stephanie run them for us ha ha. And Side bets, i am not scared of anybody that bowls, we can definately do that, just let me know. I look at like when i am on and everything is clicking that I can compete with anyone, and when i am off i will lose, but i won't be off all the time, so bring it on. ha ha

Let me know about regionals since i would tag along with you and get some experience in a few. No card for me yet as i am waiting until i stat bowling the regionals.

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Chris Leftwich
Active Duty Coast Guard member.

Djarum · « **Reply #57 on:** September 06, 2007, 08:59:00 AM »

quote:
Okay - Now we are getting somewhere..

Most PBA get free balls and etc before they even come out for everone else. I can live with that because this is there job and this is recreation for me.. Okay I might practice allot to get my skills to a certain level but still this is there job.

If PBA's step down and declare themselves as not professions and bowl I am cool with that. The kicker is the word Professional...

Professionals should only play against people of there on skill level which should be professionals...

Technically speaking, a professional is anyone who makes money doing something. I realize this argument has been hashed before, but your goal is the same as a PBA member...to win money.

Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.

justdale · « **Reply #58 on:** September 06, 2007, 09:19:30 AM »

This has been a great subject, and I have enjoyed reading everyone comments. I am not out here to say one person is wrong or right. For the most part discussions like this are for the masses to put there own twist on how they see things, and how others perceive them to be.

With that said, I agree that professionals have every right to try and earn the money that they can to make a living, just as it is OK with amateurs to do the same. Although there is a lot more pressure on the professionals, because they don't have a 9-5 job to help supplement them while they travel across the country living their lives. Travel expenses, entries into PBA events, eating, doing laundry, and whatever else takes the money out of there pockets.

With the PBA season relatively short, they ( the Professionals) need to find regionals in the summer months, as well as anything else they can find to help them make it to the next season.

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Dale Williams
Columbia 300 Utah Amateur Staff

CHawk15 · « **Reply #59 on:** September 06, 2007, 09:55:54 AM »

Even though I'm not a PBA member (I'm thinking of purchasing the card and competing in a couple of regionals this year), I agree with Jeff and Mike on this issue. When I bowl in a tournament for $$$, the tougher the competition the better for 2 reasons. The first is that if you do place high or win, the feeling of winning is much more euphoric because you know you earned it. The second is that if you don't bowl well, you have an opportunity to learn something that'll improve your game. I bowled in junior leagues for 10 years and was probably in the second tier of bowlers, took 10 years off to go to college and get my engineering career off the ground and started up again 2 1/2 years ago. I still have alot of work to do on my game, but that doesn't mean that if Jeff Carter, Norm, PDW, TJ or whoever joins a tournament, I'm going to throw my hands up and say, "Guess I won't enter because I can't win." I'm more likely to enter because I love the competition. I see alot of bowlers like that in leagues and IMHO, bowlers of this type are just cowards, period !!!!

trash heap · « **Reply #60 on:** September 06, 2007, 10:00:54 AM »

quote:
Those of us that are the weekend warriors, and bowl 5-6 or more regionals a year, are in the PBA for the competition, are proud to be PBA members, and support our respective regions. I/we feel that the people that are in the PBA just so they can receive discounted equipment cheapen the organization, and knock off some of the lustre associated with being a PBA member. Unfortunately, there are a number of these people. I feel that ALL PBA members should be required to bowl 2-3-4 regionals a year. I don't want some guy to be able to pay his $25 a month and say he is a member, get my same member benefits, and then do nothing to support the PBA. This will help increase entries at the tournaments also.

Mike,

$25.00 a month equals to $300.00 a year. If someone is paying $300.00 a year to get discounts, they would have to spend a lot of money to make that $300 work for them. If you are buying more than 6 balls a year and not bowling in any tournaments that doen't make sense.

Aren't they supporting the PBA with their monthly payment?

Author Topic: Should PBA be allow to bowl against Avg Bowlers (Read 11853 times)

Zanatos1914

Should PBA be allow to bowl against Avg Bowlers

lsf_21

Re: Should PBA be allow to bowl against Avg Bowlers

dw23

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lsf_21

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trash heap

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budcotten

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dw23

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Mike Austin

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Mike Austin

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Pinbuster

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chrisleftwich

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Djarum

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justdale

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CHawk15

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trash heap

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