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Author Topic: Small moves  (Read 17011 times)

Mongo

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Small moves
« on: March 17, 2014, 08:48:49 PM »
I know I'm possibly opening a big LH/RH whine-a-thon, but I'm curious.

Do any of you make small (old school) moves to help get the corners out? 

2 out of the last 3 sets I've had small transitions where I'm moving 1 and 1 or even just 1 with my feet to help get the corners out.  I've gotten in trouble with ball changes a couple of times when just a small move did the trick.

Anybody else still flashing back to the 80's like I am? 
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kidlost2000

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 09:35:00 PM »
In practice or warmups I try a few different balls if leaving corners. In real scoring I adjust speed or lines as needed.

As a right hander this season i spend more time fighting 7s 8s and 9s and 10s are an after thought.
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bradl

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 02:19:13 AM »
I know I'm possibly opening a big LH/RH whine-a-thon, but I'm curious.

Do any of you make small (old school) moves to help get the corners out? 

2 out of the last 3 sets I've had small transitions where I'm moving 1 and 1 or even just 1 with my feet to help get the corners out.  I've gotten in trouble with ball changes a couple of times when just a small move did the trick.

Anybody else still flashing back to the 80's like I am?

I still go by 7-up/10 back, which is what I was taught in the late 80s/early 90s. It always seemed to be about entry angle to me, and that adjustment always worked. I don't move left or right until the ball checks up early or I come up too light. Then I'll make the adjustments left or right. But for the corner pins? I'm lined up, but just don't have the angle to carry them, so that 1/2" up for the 7 pin or back for the 10 pin tend to do it for me.

YMMV.

BL.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 06:48:21 AM »
If you are right handed and you move 1 to carry you are now behind for the next move, unless your move is off a strike. 

Gizmo823

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 07:47:19 AM »
Somebody once told me don't chase carry.  The whole moving up and back on the approach is a placebo, it doesn't work.  Your brain will automatically adjust and end you up at the same place you always do unless you move a foot or more.  There are smaller adjustments you can make to improve your carry.  Chances are that if you're leaving flat 10s or 7s you have bigger problems than just a small move, but if you're ringing them, I'd just wait a few frames for the transition to catch up.  A ringing corner pin just means the ball is coming in a tad late, but that you're getting good reaction, which means you shouldn't ring 5 or 6 in a row or anything.  Flat corner leaves on the other hand means you're either playing the wrong line, using the wrong ball, or it's just transitioning poorly, maybe a combination of all 3. 

The move I usually make is to move inside a board or two and get softer to try to create a better angle or transition.  Again, there are small adjustments you can make, but I don't generally try to chase carry TOO much.  If I'm playing the lanes right and the ball is transitioning well, I'd take 9/ over 6-3 any day of the week. 
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SVstar34

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 01:43:47 PM »
I'm with Gizmo on this subject.

If you're leaving flat corner pins you're playing the wrong line, using the wrong ball, or not accounting for the transition. If you're in the pocket with solid single pin leaves, don't try to chase carry.
A couple weeks ago I started working on just softening my ball speed just a little to increase my angle and my scores have skyrocketed. I was in the 15.8-16.2 range and I worked myself into the 15.3-15.7 range and have average 251 my last 3 league sets going 278/793 - 300/694 - 289/777. Softening my speed has increased my entry angle so much that I feel like I'm carrying the world when I, along with pretty much everyone have had so much trouble carrying the corners at my center. We don't have a single 800 this season with quite a few good scratch bowlers and some former pba guys.

Dave81644

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2014, 05:24:41 PM »
try moving your eyes, not your feet
look further down the lane for more skid, look closer to the foul line for earlier roll

swingset

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2014, 06:16:46 PM »
There's no one recipe for me - it depends on the lanes, the conditions and the ball I'm throwing - but I don't come in weak or have deflection problems very often - 9 times out of 10 I'm just hitting the pocket wrong.

My movement is usually target first if I adjust for carry...changing the breakpoint.

I may move up or back (contrary to Gizmo, I know without any doubt that this is not placebo...I pay attention to where my feet end up and if I move back, I finish pretty much the same distance back on the foul line), and I may in extreme cases move to a different ball.
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bradl

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2014, 06:45:21 PM »
try moving your eyes, not your feet
look further down the lane for more skid, look closer to the foul line for earlier roll

In doing this, you may miss your break point, causing the ball to come in late behind the head pin, leaving you that 10 pin, putting you in the position you are already in. Or worse, coming in a bit too light, leaving you 2-8-10 or 2-4-8-10.

Moving your eyes closer will get you into an earlier roll, yes, but you may burn up energy early, causing your ball to roll out, and lose its carry potential.

For me, it is all about entry angle to the pocket, not chasing the transition. That 7 up/10 back handles that entry angle issue. If I did nothing and waited a few frames, that few frames is the difference between a 200 game and a 250 game.

Adjustments for transition should be left or right. Entry angle would be forward or backward. Again, YMMV.

BL.

JustRico

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2014, 07:42:34 PM »
Most issues with carry in today's environment is how the bowling ball is effected by the conditioner and lane surface...what this means is how the bowling ball responds or interacts with the conditioner or if it slows down properly coming out of it.
The way the game was played previously was more with a hit at the release thus allowing the ball to 'skid' easier to create more angle down lane due to the way urethane responds to a thinner oil...today hitting the ball at the release or accelerating thru the bottom causes the ball to respond improperly to the down lane friction.
Carry, assuming the proper ball is in play, generally is dictated by less deviation at the release or hit and proper amount of speed...too much hit or too much speed decreases the probability of the ball slowing down correctly allowing it to create the proper angle for carry.
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cav

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2014, 09:49:49 PM »
'Last PBA telecast I watched, Randy P said on a weak 10 to move right.....this was for a fairly slow revving stroker.....
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Gizmo823

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 08:16:21 AM »
If somebody is paying more attention to where their feet end up than how they're throwing the shot, that doesn't sound like a recipe for success.  And I did qualify it, you can't just move a couple inches and number one think that a couple inches is going to turn a 10 pin into a strike, or number two think you're so accurate that you'll end up exactly that distance back from the foul line.  If you're that accurate that a couple inches back matters, you wouldn't be leaving 10s in the first place.  If you move a foot, yeah there's a pretty good chance you'll end up in the neighborhood of a foot back from where you normally end up. 

Sometimes it's just changing angles.  If there's more dry outside, move your breakpoint a board or two right and catch that dry earlier.  If there's not, move your breakpoint a board in.  Don't always have to make moves with your feet, sometimes you just have to play with the shape a little. 

There's no one recipe for me - it depends on the lanes, the conditions and the ball I'm throwing - but I don't come in weak or have deflection problems very often - 9 times out of 10 I'm just hitting the pocket wrong.

My movement is usually target first if I adjust for carry...changing the breakpoint.

I may move up or back (contrary to Gizmo, I know without any doubt that this is not placebo...I pay attention to where my feet end up and if I move back, I finish pretty much the same distance back on the foul line), and I may in extreme cases move to a different ball.
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swingset

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2014, 05:38:19 PM »
If somebody is paying more attention to where their feet end up than how they're throwing the shot, that doesn't sound like a recipe for success.  And I did qualify it, you can't just move a couple inches and number one think that a couple inches is going to turn a 10 pin into a strike, or number two think you're so accurate that you'll end up exactly that distance back from the foul line.  If you're that accurate that a couple inches back matters, you wouldn't be leaving 10s in the first place.  If you move a foot, yeah there's a pretty good chance you'll end up in the neighborhood of a foot back from where you normally end up. 

Sometimes it's just changing angles.  If there's more dry outside, move your breakpoint a board or two right and catch that dry earlier.  If there's not, move your breakpoint a board in.  Don't always have to make moves with your feet, sometimes you just have to play with the shape a little. 

Lol, as if checking where my foot stopped after the ball has hit the rack is somehow detrimental to my shot? Get over yourself.

It's one of several tools in my bag, and I can and do change my start position if I'm having pin leaves - but not all of us conform to your declarations or behave consistently just because it's pat bowling lore to say "you'll just end up compensating".

What I do to change my carry, like what many pros do, is subjective and based on hours of practice to prove that it consistently DOES make a difference, else I wouldn't employ it. It's why I hate rote prescriptions for carry or movements. We're not robots, and we can all perform the same tasks with differing results no matter what Slowinsky or Baker say about "correct".

And, you're absolutely wrong about a couple of inches making a difference....5 or 6 inches can change where that ball contacts and leaves the oil just enough to address the 3 pin differently with the same shot and breakpoint - that's PRECISELY what changes 10 pin leaves - a very small change in direction, angle or speed will trip the 6 correctly. In fact, it's the only thing that changes the 10 pin. Where you hit the 3 is what happens to the 10. Period.

Don't contradict me with empirical nonsense about a game you've never seen in person, or tell me what I know to be true is not. It's arrogant and presumptuous at best, and insulting at worst.

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bradl

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2014, 06:58:53 PM »
If somebody is paying more attention to where their feet end up than how they're throwing the shot, that doesn't sound like a recipe for success.  And I did qualify it, you can't just move a couple inches and number one think that a couple inches is going to turn a 10 pin into a strike, or number two think you're so accurate that you'll end up exactly that distance back from the foul line.  If you're that accurate that a couple inches back matters, you wouldn't be leaving 10s in the first place.  If you move a foot, yeah there's a pretty good chance you'll end up in the neighborhood of a foot back from where you normally end up. 

Sometimes it's just changing angles.  If there's more dry outside, move your breakpoint a board or two right and catch that dry earlier.  If there's not, move your breakpoint a board in.  Don't always have to make moves with your feet, sometimes you just have to play with the shape a little. 

Lol, as if checking where my foot stopped after the ball has hit the rack is somehow detrimental to my shot? Get over yourself.

It's one of several tools in my bag, and I can and do change my start position if I'm having pin leaves - but not all of us conform to your declarations or behave consistently just because it's pat bowling lore to say "you'll just end up compensating".

What I do to change my carry, like what many pros do, is subjective and based on hours of practice to prove that it consistently DOES make a difference, else I wouldn't employ it. It's why I hate rote prescriptions for carry or movements. We're not robots, and we can all perform the same tasks with differing results no matter what Slowinsky or Baker say about "correct".

And, you're absolutely wrong about a couple of inches making a difference....5 or 6 inches can change where that ball contacts and leaves the oil just enough to address the 3 pin differently with the same shot and breakpoint - that's PRECISELY what changes 10 pin leaves - a very small change in direction, angle or speed will trip the 6 correctly. In fact, it's the only thing that changes the 10 pin. Where you hit the 3 is what happens to the 10. Period.

Don't contradict me with empirical nonsense about a game you've never seen in person, or tell me what I know to be true is not. It's arrogant and presumptuous at best, and insulting at worst.


Bold for emphasis. Very well said.

BL.

Gizmo823

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 10:42:02 AM »
6 inches on a 60 foot lane equates to a change of 0.0084%, or less than 1%.  You know how small your standard deviations on rev rate, speed, axis tilt, and angle of rotation would have to be to take advantage of that consistently?  You might as well be saying, "Well my rev rate is 400, but if it's not hooking soon enough, I just change it to 404."  Theoretically it sounds good, practically it doesn't. 

However, I'm definitely not saying it doesn't work for you.  If you say it does, I believe you.  I'm just not sure it works for you in the way that you think it does.  You know how many times somebody has brought a ball in and said it sucked and wanted the surface changed when I knew better?  Take it back, flip the spinner on and off a few times, then take it back out after doing absolutely nothing to it.  All the sudden it's a brand new ball and they go nuts with it.

I've also found out from many hours of coaching that when you try to get someone to do something they've never done before, they either over-focus on that one thing, or they don't pay enough attention to it and their muscle memory compensates and nothing changes.  Your point about hating rote prescriptions is spot on though.  Everyone is different, everyone executes concepts differently to end up at the same result.  You get the concept of what needs to happen across, and then find out how their game would execute that the best. 

I will still say that there are quicker, easier ways that work better with what somebody already does than trying to adjust to moving forwards or backwards on the approach, especially on the fly without having all those hours to practice it.  So once again, way to start an argument where one didn't exist. 

If somebody is paying more attention to where their feet end up than how they're throwing the shot, that doesn't sound like a recipe for success.  And I did qualify it, you can't just move a couple inches and number one think that a couple inches is going to turn a 10 pin into a strike, or number two think you're so accurate that you'll end up exactly that distance back from the foul line.  If you're that accurate that a couple inches back matters, you wouldn't be leaving 10s in the first place.  If you move a foot, yeah there's a pretty good chance you'll end up in the neighborhood of a foot back from where you normally end up. 

Sometimes it's just changing angles.  If there's more dry outside, move your breakpoint a board or two right and catch that dry earlier.  If there's not, move your breakpoint a board in.  Don't always have to make moves with your feet, sometimes you just have to play with the shape a little. 

Lol, as if checking where my foot stopped after the ball has hit the rack is somehow detrimental to my shot? Get over yourself.

It's one of several tools in my bag, and I can and do change my start position if I'm having pin leaves - but not all of us conform to your declarations or behave consistently just because it's pat bowling lore to say "you'll just end up compensating".

What I do to change my carry, like what many pros do, is subjective and based on hours of practice to prove that it consistently DOES make a difference, else I wouldn't employ it. It's why I hate rote prescriptions for carry or movements. We're not robots, and we can all perform the same tasks with differing results no matter what Slowinsky or Baker say about "correct".

And, you're absolutely wrong about a couple of inches making a difference....5 or 6 inches can change where that ball contacts and leaves the oil just enough to address the 3 pin differently with the same shot and breakpoint - that's PRECISELY what changes 10 pin leaves - a very small change in direction, angle or speed will trip the 6 correctly. In fact, it's the only thing that changes the 10 pin. Where you hit the 3 is what happens to the 10. Period.

Don't contradict me with empirical nonsense about a game you've never seen in person, or tell me what I know to be true is not. It's arrogant and presumptuous at best, and insulting at worst.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?