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Author Topic: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***  (Read 12880 times)

302efi

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...with handicap

How in the hell am I suppose to beat that ?


***10/20/08 Update***
I just received this response from USBC about handicap scores going over 300/900 handicap:

" Leagues have the ability to put a cap on handicap scores that would prevent any scores above 300 or 900 from being recorded.

Two years ago at the National convention, delegates voted against a proposal that would do the same thing in tournaments.

In short, leagues would be able to put in place such a rule at the leagues organizational meeting, however, a tournament director may not put such a rule in place "
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke



Edited on 10/20/2008 2:15 PM

 

Jorge300

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2008, 09:11:26 AM »
quote:
quote:
Funny thing is 302 has never posted what he bowled against this 921, probably because the guy beat him scratch and he just wanted to find something to complain about.
Actually, look on the previous page.

"His was getting 81 pins a game.
His first game was 342, second was a 302 and the last was 277 (all with handicap)"
(I did the math for you if you're curious, that'd be shooting 261-221-196=678 scratch)
"I shot 708 scratch, so 711 with handicap..lol"

But 302efi isn't even complaining here that he got beat.  That's not the problem here.  It just made him realize a flaw in the handicap system that somebody can have a score higher than a perfect game should give you.  How is that fair???


I apologize then, I missed that. But is still doesn't take away that you can influence 1/3 of the total points with this stupid rule.

And this is definately a sign of the apocalypse, this is the second time this week I agree with LuckyLefty. Let the person celebrate how good they bowled and stop trying to finds ways to bring them down. Unless you actually shoot 300/900 and lose, it's a non-issue.
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Jorge300

Jorge300

rvmark

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2008, 09:33:24 AM »
We are talking about hypotheticals here.  If I bowled a 900 series scratch I would probably be more worried about the hangover I would be nursing the next morning than what my opponent bowled.  

Mark

302efi

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2008, 12:37:32 PM »
quote:
Unless you actually shoot 300/900 and lose, it's a non-issue.


This has happened before last season at the of the league. Not a 900(lol), but a 300 shot by a scratch bowler was beaten by someone rolling by someone shooting 290 (scratch) with 15 handicap for total of 315.

Just because you may not have seen it, it happens. Remember theres 50 states you gotta look at...With the amount of 300s being shot in todays game, I wold bet that this happens way more often then what people would like to admit.

Bottom line it the handicap system is flawed to allow handicap to total over 300/900. When both bowlers are not given a chance not achieve the same total scores, theres a problem if you want to admit it or not.

"Oh don't worry about, it never happens"

Preparedness is the key here. Being nice and turning the other cheek just because you don't think it won't happen is a joke. Were bowling for $25k per half and we are in second place...This will be addressed in out league next week, I'll make sure of it

I mean we all pay our dues to USBC to govern and make equal bowling conditions for all paying members. This is an obvious disadvangtage.

I'm still waiting on a response from USBC, and I'll post it here as soon as I get it
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

Edited on 10/17/2008 12:41 PM

nutsforbowling

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2008, 01:48:20 PM »
quote:
quote:
Unless you actually shoot 300/900 and lose, it's a non-issue.


This has happened before last season at the of the league. Not a 900(lol), but a 300 shot by a scratch bowler was beaten by someone rolling by someone shooting 290 (scratch) with 15 handicap for total of 315.

Just because you may not have seen it, it happens. Remember theres 50 states you gotta look at...With the amount of 300s being shot in todays game, I wold bet that this happens way more often then what people would like to admit.

Bottom line it the handicap system is flawed to allow handicap to total over 300/900. When both bowlers are not given a chance not achieve the same total scores, theres a problem if you want to admit it or not.

"Oh don't worry about, it never happens"

Preparedness is the key here. Being nice and turning the other cheek just because you don't think it won't happen is a joke. Were bowling for $25k per half and we are in second place...This will be addressed in out league next week, I'll make sure of it

I mean we all pay our dues to USBC to govern and make equal bowling conditions for all paying members. This is an obvious disadvangtage.

I'm still waiting on a response from USBC, and I'll post it here as soon as I get it
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

Edited on 10/17/2008 12:41 PM


Well in order to change a rule mid-season you will need a unaminous approval, which I doubt you will get. And since the USBC is not looking to lose members, I doubt they will agree with you either. I assume the majority of USBC members average less than 210, so they need handicap to make things even. Please post what happens at your meeting either way, it will be interesting.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.

302efi

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #95 on: October 17, 2008, 02:04:58 PM »
quote:
And since the USBC is not looking to lose members, I doubt they will agree with you either


So your saying that USBC would rather some bowlers be able to reach higher scores then others ? I thought they stand for even set of rules for everyone ?

 
quote:
I assume the majority of USBC members average less than 210, so they need handicap to make things even


Thats fine with me..The key word you said is "even". If you can shot a max of 380 and I can only shoot a max of 300, is that even ?

 
quote:
Please post what happens at your meeting either way, it will be interesting.


No doubt !...I'm def going to keep this going
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

rvmark

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2008, 04:09:50 PM »
Quote:
______________________________________________________________________________
This has happened before last season at the of the league. Not a 900(lol), but a 300 shot by a scratch bowler was beaten by someone rolling by someone shooting 290 (scratch) with 15 handicap for total of 315.
Bottom line it the handicap system is flawed to allow handicap to total over 300/900. When both bowlers are not given a chance not achieve the same total scores, theres a problem if you want to admit it or not.

Preparedness is the key here. Being nice and turning the other cheek just because you don't think it won't happen is a joke. Were bowling for $25k per half and we are in second place...This will be addressed in our league next week, I'll make sure of it  
_______________________________________________________________________________

When this happened last year in the league why was it not addressed before your league started this year?

You are evidentally paying much higher league fees than we do in the leagues we bowl in for prize funds that large, with the concerns that you have I would make sure to have them addressed before the season starts as I know in our league you have a hard time getting the entire group convinced to change the rules of the game once you have already started.  Not saying for or against what you are trying to do just my thoughts on the battle you will face within your league this year.

Mark

302efi

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2008, 04:17:12 PM »
quote:
When this happened last year in the league why was it not addressed before your league started this year?

You are evidentally paying much higher league fees than we do in the leagues we bowl in for prize funds that large, with the concerns that you have I would make sure to have them addressed before the season starts as I know in our league you have a hard time getting the entire group convinced to change the rules of the game once you have already started. Not saying for or against what you are trying to do just my thoughts on the battle you will face within your league this year.
 


Good question !

When I ment by "last year", was the same league, but it was under a different name and a different format

Like some people in this thread saying dont worry about unless it happens to you, I was going by that since the beginning of league. After Wensday night, I have a different outlook on it.

I got my opinion/point around league after Wensday league and the outlook looks good. I mentioned something to the president and were going to have a meeting before league next week.

Yeah we do pay quite a bit, but the reward/payout is nice as well...
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

collegebowler

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #98 on: October 17, 2008, 08:49:38 PM »
Capping handicap scores at 300 and 900 doesn't make sense mathematically because handicap scores are relative to the system your league is using.  If handicap was 90% of 300 instead of 220, your opponent would have beaten you 1137 to 927.  Notice, the difference is still 210 pins because you both got the same amount of additional handicap ((300-220)*.9*3=216).  However, using this system, both of you would have had over 900 for hdcp series. By your logic, you should have tied.  I beg to differ.

Your opponent was 288 pins over his average for 3 games.  Even if you had shot 900 scratch that would "only" be 243 pins over your average for 3 games.  Therefore, your opponent should win in that hypothetical situation, provided both of your averages are legitimate and handicap is 90% of 220.

If you think this gives lower average bowlers an unfair advantage you are missing the big picture. The best bowlers have a MAJOR advantage if your handicap is based on 90% of 220.  And it is there every game, not just for some impossibly bizarre scenario.  If you need me to explain why, I will.
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Former Wisconsin Collegiate Bowling Conference President

Edited on 10/17/2008 8:56 PM

Juggernaut

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #99 on: October 17, 2008, 09:37:03 PM »
Whatever happened to the lower average bowlers who spent time and money to BECOME the higher average bowler?

 Handicap? O.K., I get it, not everyone is going to average 200. Help a guy out a bit? No problem, give him his 80% of 210 and see what he can do.  Shoot 250 and get 60 pins handicap? NO FREAKIN WAY!

  How on earth ( or anywhere else for that matter ) can ANYONE think its fair for you to GIVE someone more than can be shot in the first place?

 300 game and 900 eries should be the max, handicap be DAMNED!
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302efi

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2008, 10:47:18 PM »
quote:
How on earth ( or anywhere else for that matter ) can ANYONE think its fair for you to GIVE someone more than can be shot in the first place?


Thats my whole point


I mean I earn a 300 game, but some guy shoot a 240 and give him a 320 ?!

WTF ?

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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

Juggernaut

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2008, 11:02:28 PM »
quote:
quote:
How on earth ( or anywhere else for that matter ) can ANYONE think its fair for you to GIVE someone more than can be shot in the first place?


Thats my whole point


I mean I earn a 300 game, but some guy shoot a 240 and give him a 320 ?!

WTF ?

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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke


 I understand. I don't begrudge ANYONE for bowling good.  Bowl good, beat me, so what. You bowl better than me, you SHOULD win.

 Just last night we bowled against a guy with a 200 average getting 16 pins of handicap ( 80% of 220 ) that shot a 298 second game. Handicap, that gave him a 314. He also shot a 767 scratch ( 815 handicap ).  The guy bowled great, congrats to him, but to just GIVE him a 314? That's nuts.  We would have lost that game anyway, that's not my point. My point is, give him the 300, he earned it, but ONLY 300, nothing more.

P.S. Oh yeah, I don't get any handicap as my average is too high currently. and proud of it.
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Edited on 10/17/2008 11:03 PM
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chawk17

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2008, 11:10:52 PM »
quote:
quote:
302, are there any points awarded for totals?  Team points (game and series)  or individual?

One problem I would see with capping a handicapped game at 300 would be the possibility of losing either the team game or the totals because of the lost pins.  Guy with hdcp is limited to a 300 game but his team loses the game points by a couple of pins or he loses the individual series to you by a few pins.  




There is a total of 33 possible points a night:

Individual per game (Guy across from you) 1 point
Team per game (Team total per game) 2 points
Individual series (Guy across from you) 2 points
Team series (Team total per game) 2 points

If a guy with no handicap is limited to 300 per game max, shouldnt a guy with handicap be limited to 300 as well ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke


When the scoring system is like this I agree, cap the HCDP totals to 300/900.  I don't think it is needed when there is only a team total to worry about each game.
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Urameshii6

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #103 on: October 18, 2008, 12:27:09 AM »
Would it help at all to change the handicap ratio?  90% of 220 sounds kinda odd (I've never been in a league that had such a cap ratio).

302efi

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #104 on: October 18, 2008, 12:54:04 AM »
quote:
Would it help at all to change the handicap ratio?  90% of 220 sounds kinda odd (I've never been in a league that had such a cap ratio).


Thats been brought up be fore, but gets voted down before the motion even gets finished being read ..lol

90% of 220 is pretty much standard around here

Whats also sad is there is no scratch leagues or even low handicap Mens leagues around here.

I enjoy bowling, so I'm glad theres even leagues around here to bowl that are competitive and have nice cash payouts. What really put a damper on this situation, was the guys attitude toward the scores he bowled. Kinda making half-a** jokes about being over 300..Like:

~ "Well you can't beat that even if you shot a 300"
~ "Wow, I was way over 300 on that first game!"
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Sport Bowling is a F**king joke

Edited on 10/18/2008 0:54 AM

Edited on 10/18/2008 0:55 AM

rockerbowler18

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Re: So the guy I bowled against tonight shot 921....***USBC Update***
« Reply #105 on: October 18, 2008, 01:01:47 AM »
I probably would have been so angry I would have drop kicked him.

Not really.

Still, though. It sucks. I for sure wish they'd put a cap. For me, it's impossible to beat someone with 150 pins h/c that shoots 151. I'm sorry, if I shoot 300 and you shoot 151, I don't care how many pins over average that is...my accomplishment was better.
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Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
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