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Author Topic: Balls w/ Pro Pin  (Read 2172 times)

NY Mike

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Balls w/ Pro Pin
« on: October 21, 2008, 06:32:56 AM »
A friend of mine is fortunate to get his hands on some Pro Pin balls,
he admits that these balls hit a little harder than normal market
balls but also says they burn out after 50 or so games.  Has anyone
else had experience with Pro pin balls ?

 

janderson

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 06:26:34 AM »
I have used several of them - they neither "hit harder" nor suffer earlier cover problems than any other equipment from the same respective manufacturer.

Longer Cg-to-pin distances are caused by having the core offset by a larger margin when the ball is poured.  Some companies label these as "pro" pin. Someone more knowledgeable than I may be able to explain why. Perhaps to sell equipment that was otherwise considered flawed? Perhaps as a marketing ploy?

When a ball has a longer cg-to-pin distance, it allows for a wider range of layout options without requiring a balance hole.
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Edited on 10/22/2008 6:29 AM

dizzyfugu

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 06:35:51 AM »
quote:
the fact that its pro pin shouldn't make a difference. They are made the same way, but with unusual pin distance/location.


That's it. They can be useful if you want a certain ball reaction - if that ball "hits harder" it uis certainly a current good match on with the lane and the user's style, but I would not generalize on that and rather say that these balls are more condition specific than normal sale quality balls.
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Gunny

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 07:39:29 AM »
ive drilled/thrown several pro pins, never had one die.  they can be used in very succesful situations with right drilling.

NY Mike

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2008, 03:40:09 PM »
Is ok to say, these balls are as good as any others on market but
their reactions are drilling sensitive ?

janderson

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 02:03:09 PM »
Pin-to-pap distance is still going to have the biggest impact on ball reaction when it comes to layout.

Suppose your PAP is six inches over and a half inch up.  If you take a ball that has a pin to Cg distance of a half inch and the ball has a heavy core and 4+ ounces of top weight, if I want to layout a 1 inch pin to pap layout, I'm going to need the mother of all weight holes to make the ball legal.

With a six inch pin to cg ("pro pin") and everything else the same, I can use the same layout on the ball without needing a weight hole.

How much will the reaction differ?  That depends on your view of how static weights affect ball motion and that's getting into the whole "cg matters/cg doesn't matter" debate and I'm not touching that.

Essentially, the longer the pin to cg distance, the more you can move that pin around in your layout and still keep the cg in an area where you will not need a weight hole to bring the static weights back into legal requirements.


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JohnP

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 11:13:22 AM »
quote:
Is ok to say, these balls are as good as any others on market but
their reactions are drilling sensitive ?


It would be more accurate to say, these balls are as good as any others on the market, but the layouts that can be used on them may be limited, especially if the customer doesn't want a balance hole.  --  JohnP

JessN16

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 03:10:59 PM »
I probably own the mother of all pro-pin balls: A Paradigm with an 11.5-inch pin measured from the CG. It's been the star attraction of The Gathering now for a couple of years. (g)

I also have a "normal" Paradigm. Both balls are drilled with the pin over the bridge or ring and the MB at 4 o'clock from the thumb hole about an inch down. Both have weight holes in roughly the same place (thumb-positive quadrant down the VAL) although the one in the pro-pin ball is bigger so as to make the ball statically legal.

Do these balls roll the same? Not even close.

The normal Paradigm rolls like most of the reviews say it should -- i.e., typical Storm long and strong, saving a lot for the backend, and producing great carry.

The pro-pin Paradigm is done hooking before it can even get out of the mids. You can easily see the difference with the naked eye as the ball migrates from one axis to the other. It has very little backend, but is a monster in the mids and gives me a weapon in my arsenal that I can't get out of any standard ball.

For that reason, my pro-pin ball is limited in the lines it can play, but I seem to be able to play those lines across a wider range of conditions. I was going up 5 on Shark with this ball when most everyone else was still trying to play the pattern the way it was "supposed" to be played (i.e, deep inside). But when I go to a THS, my scoring potential doesn't really go up that much, because I can't really take advantage of a wall.

Verdict: Pro-pin balls definitely have their uses, and mine goes with me to every tournament I play. But they don't necessarily roll the same. Despite the fact that I have two balls with almost identical pin-to-PAP distances, surface preps and weight holes, they have two completely different looks. That either means the CG placement makes a difference, the ball is mismarked, or there's something else going on no one has figured out yet. Whatever you ascribe it to, it means you're getting kind of a grab bag when you buy pro-pin. You might get something that works or you might get a turd.

Jess

janderson

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 07:25:08 PM »
You drill into the core, you change the core shape, you change core motion, you change the ball behavior (all other things being equal).  The further offset the core, the closer to the surface of the ball, the easier it is to get to the core with drilling, the easier to change the core shape.

Drilling a bigger weight hole makes a difference, especially if it too goes into the core and changes the core shape.

I had two Ebonite "Ones", one with a "pro" pin, one without. The first was broken by the equipment in a bowling center so I drilled the second with the pin in the same place. No weight hole in either ball. The only difference was the pin to cg distance.  One was an inch, the other almost five inches. The reaction was identical between the two balls.



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JessN16

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 10:57:19 PM »
quote:
You drill into the core, you change the core shape, you change core motion, you change the ball behavior (all other things being equal).  The further offset the core, the closer to the surface of the ball, the easier it is to get to the core with drilling, the easier to change the core shape.

Drilling a bigger weight hole makes a difference, especially if it too goes into the core and changes the core shape.

I had two Ebonite "Ones", one with a "pro" pin, one without. The first was broken by the equipment in a bowling center so I drilled the second with the pin in the same place. No weight hole in either ball. The only difference was the pin to cg distance.  One was an inch, the other almost five inches. The reaction was identical between the two balls.



--------------------
J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson - "Better than Jello" - Kill the back row





So which marking do I need to pay attention to to know which direction the core was offset? It would have to be the CG, wouldn't it? Or can you not tell at all?

The CG on my pro-pin Paradigm is almost 180 degrees around the ball from the pin. There is no hole anywhere near it. The weight hole is about a half-inch away from the MB mark going up and just inside the VAL.

The CG on my normal Paradigm is grip center. The weight hole is, like on the pro-pin ball, about a half-inch away from the MB mark going up and just inside the VAL.

Inspection of both balls reveals much more of the core was hit on the pro-pin ball, particularly by the weight hole.

However, I would think that would cause the ball to hook later rather than earlier, right? You're removing imbalance, so you're removing the material that creates the longer spin time by taking a long time to migrate. My pro-pin ball can't wait to switch axes, though. You can double-check it by looking at my oil lines: It's getting about 5 inches of flare, total, but the oil lines are spaced WAY apart. I'm surprised it checks out statically but it does.

If you're coming to The Gathering next year remind me before we all leave and I'll pack both balls. I don't think you tried to throw any of my stuff this year but you can at least watch me and see what I'm talking about.

Jess

Mark T. Trgovac

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 11:59:26 PM »
quote:
I probably own the mother of all pro-pin balls: A Paradigm with an 11.5-inch pin measured from the CG. It's been the star attraction of The Gathering now for a couple of years. (g)

I also have a "normal" Paradigm. Both balls are drilled with the pin over the bridge or ring and the MB at 4 o'clock from the thumb hole about an inch down. Both have weight holes in roughly the same place (thumb-positive quadrant down the VAL) although the one in the pro-pin ball is bigger so as to make the ball statically legal.

Do these balls roll the same? Not even close.

The normal Paradigm rolls like most of the reviews say it should -- i.e., typical Storm long and strong, saving a lot for the backend, and producing great carry.

The pro-pin Paradigm is done hooking before it can even get out of the mids. You can easily see the difference with the naked eye as the ball migrates from one axis to the other. It has very little backend, but is a monster in the mids and gives me a weapon in my arsenal that I can't get out of any standard ball.

For that reason, my pro-pin ball is limited in the lines it can play, but I seem to be able to play those lines across a wider range of conditions. I was going up 5 on Shark with this ball when most everyone else was still trying to play the pattern the way it was "supposed" to be played (i.e, deep inside). But when I go to a THS, my scoring potential doesn't really go up that much, because I can't really take advantage of a wall.

Verdict: Pro-pin balls definitely have their uses, and mine goes with me to every tournament I play. But they don't necessarily roll the same. Despite the fact that I have two balls with almost identical pin-to-PAP distances, surface preps and weight holes, they have two completely different looks. That either means the CG placement makes a difference, the ball is mismarked, or there's something else going on no one has figured out yet. Whatever you ascribe it to, it means you're getting kind of a grab bag when you buy pro-pin. You might get something that works or you might get a turd.

Jess


I own a columbia 300 overdrive, that for it to even be drilled and have a chance to be legal and work for me we had to messure 13.5 inches from the real pin through the cg and make a new pin. The core is completly upside down.
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dizzyfugu

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2008, 08:33:22 AM »
CG tells you into which the direction inside of the ball the core is shifted towards.
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janderson

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Re: Balls w/ Pro Pin
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2008, 08:39:34 AM »
Jess - sure, let's take a look at the next Gathering. I would assume, like you, that the Cg marks the direction of the core imbalance. It's good that you have two pieces of the same equipment to test.

The other added complexity that hasn't been mentioned is core density and cores that have pieces with different densities. In a simpler world of single-density cores, if you drill into the side of a pop-can shaped core, you add differential, which adds flare potential, etc.  If you drill into the top of the core, you lower differential, which lowers flare potential, etc.



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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson - "Better than Jello" - Kill the back row