BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: MrNattyBoh on May 22, 2014, 08:57:29 AM
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Well I got my first taste of a sport pattern league this week! Boy do i need some work....lol....shot 155-144-192. NOT GOOD! however, i think with some practice and better concentration I think I can pull off 190 avg, well, that's my goal anyway. My first goal was to shoot 500 the first week and I failed. Spare shooting sucked until the last game and finding the pocket the first two games was like finding a needle in a haystack........we get to practice on the pattern the night before so i will definitely be taking advantage of that! I am looking forward to the challenge and sharpening my game and going to the next level! anyone else bowling sport pattern league for the first time this year?
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I am looking forward to the challenge and sharpening my game and going to the next level!
Almost literal blasphemy to SOME (we all know them) league bowlers. :-X
Kudos to you sir! :)
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The biggest thing it to make spares and not get frustrated when things don't go your way. You'll find that you match up to some patterns much more than others. One week you'll be shooting low and see some big scores. The next week it might be reversed. For me I'm very good on the short patterns, pretty good on the long, but not so good on all the mediums.
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My melee bailed me out the last game. almost had a clean game but missed a 10 pin in the tenth frame. I think that ball is going to help me alot with reading the patterns as it tends not to be over/under.
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the best thing you can do to be successful on these tougher patterns is to understand more about layouts, ball surfaces and lane play.
And as mentioned above, practice, practice spares, be able to throw a straight ball at all spares (minus double wood)
for me, the improvements i chose to make were 1st with my fundamentals, although i had success on THS, that did not transition well enough to these patterns.
I am always working on having sound fundamentals and the rest falls into place a little easier
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Remember that sport patterns play more front to back, as opposed to house shots, which are side to side. Your exit point at the end of the pattern matters much more on sport than on THS.
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Good point doom. With flatter patterns a person has to learn to be more versatile in terms of being able to square up on long patterns, get the ball down the lane on short patterns, and most of all try to develop more forward roll and less axis rotation. Versatility is really the key word. I see lots of house shooters who can totally whack one sport pattern, and die on another. Length of buff is so important. I never pay much attention to the right to left dispersion of oil on tournament patterns. Only thing I really pay attention to is overall oil volume and length of buff. that will tell me where I am most likely going to play a pattern initially, and how it may transition.
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This was my second night on this Sport Pattern league and it made me feel less than mortal. The best results I had was when I played as straight a line to the pocket as possible but even then I wasn't carrying well. I assumed it's because I don't have the arsenal to handle it yet (Only have my Black Widow Assassin and Spare Ball) and make appropriate adjustments and also the difficulty making adjustments. Some people were trying to use their booming big hooks and the balls were lucky to hit the 10 pin. Most definitely a reality check and lots more practice required.
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We have just completed week 4 of the summer sport league I am bowling in. It is entertaining and at the same time frustrating watching people stand at the left gutter, try swing the ball to the right gutter to strike and then wonder why it doesn't work. Instead of doing the same thing over and over without success, try something different.
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We even have a class prior to a new pattern and it is explained where to stand, where to try and play and why.
they all nod their heads in understanding and get out there, do exactly what you described
then get frustrated and complain and usually not return the following year
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Good point doom. With flatter patterns a person has to learn to be more versatile in terms of being able to square up on long patterns, get the ball down the lane on short patterns, and most of all try to develop more forward roll and less axis rotation. Versatility is really the key word. I see lots of house shooters who can totally whack one sport pattern, and die on another. Length of buff is so important. I never pay much attention to the right to left dispersion of oil on tournament patterns. Only thing I really pay attention to is overall oil volume and length of buff. that will tell me where I am most likely going to play a pattern initially, and how it may transition.
Avabob. Thanks for the great advice on how to look at sport patterns from front to back instead of side to side. I finally got the monkey off my back in my PBA Sport Pattern league by throwing a great series in my 5th week on the Shark pattern. After being humbled in the first 4 weeks with a 35 pin drop in my adverage, it was nice to see that my game is good enough to adjust to sport shots. FWIW, I used a pin down, HyRoad with very little hand and had a great look from 20 to about 12-13 at the breakpoint. Thanks.
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Update:
week 2 I had a solid series, 205-225-200 for 630. I hit my mark consistently and my ball reaction was decent.
week 3 I was on vacation, so no update.
Week 4 We bowled on the cheetah pattern and I practiced on it the night before. I did not have a good ball reaction except for the second game when I had a 220 game. Lack of concentration and execution resulted in a couple 170 games. First game I hit pocket 7 out of the 10 frames with poor carry. 174-220-174. Three opens first game, one open second game and three opens third game. I threw two gutter balls on top of all that.
The next two weeks we are on a longer 43' shot compared to the last two weeks 35' cheetah shot. I dont know what pattern it is but I will be getting a new Ringer Solid Blue. I am hoping this is a good compliment to the Melee and Mystic Aura! I will continue to post updates as the weeks go by! My average is at 186 at the moment. My goal is to have that over the 190 mark by the end of it all and have at least one game over 250 during the length of the league.
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Think about the longer pattern in terms of front to back.
Not side to side. The length of these patterns should dictate where to play them. (Generally speaking). A longer pattern would indicate that you should be targeting 12-13 at your breakpoint.
Like 15 at the arrows out to 12-13.
Try to keep angles straight up front and don't give the pocket away
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We just completed week 5 of our summer sport league. Each pattern is used 2 weeks. We had Shark, then Bear and now Mark Roth.
I believe Dave nailed it with some excellent advice. I might add two other items to consider. The lane surface you are on and the other bowlers on your pair. If you have high rev bowlers or bowlers who are using too much surface too soon, then it transitions differently than low rev bowlers or bowlers using less surface.
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lot's of good advise here,i found that bowling on the sport patterns makes you throw the ball the same way every time it shows you where you need to work on your game,i love it i would bowl on them all the time if i could.you must remain cinfidant and throw the ball do not aim it
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Eric, +1 In addition to repeatability, I would also add that the sport league forced me to learn to be comfortable throwing down 5 (Cheetah), taking hand out of my naturally high rev shot (Shark) and throwing my spare ball on spare shots on the left side of the lane. I'm not sure I would have had the motivation to work on these things if I stayed on THS leagues.
MK
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yea MK,there is no challenge to throwing it out and as long as it does not go in the ditch you can strike,the sport patterns help to learn more about your game and how to play lanes
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I thought about getting a spare ball, but 100 bucks for a 10 week league isnt worth it to me. I see the importance, but for now I have been comming straight up the back and hard at spares. If i bowled tournaments i would get one. i am mostly a league bowler during the week.
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i have always picked up 10 pin by coming up the back glad to see you have that in your arsenal now
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You have to look at sport leagues in terms of what you really want from the game. Nothing at all wrong with bowling on house shots and enjoying throwing high scores.
If you really want to become accomplished at the game, and appreciate the challenge of attacking diverse lane patterns, then sport leagues are the way to go. When I was young and looking to get better, we didn't have sport leagues, and frankly I didn't find it productive to practice on brick yard conditions. However I did try to bowl in multiple houses where the house shot might be off the corner in one house, and at 3rd arrow in another. It forced me to develop a style where threw a strong enough shot to carry from inside, but could still go straight enough to play outside with minimal out angle.
New surfaces and ball advancement forced me to refine my release, and develop more ball speed, but many of those fundamentals are still applicable. Most of the greatest bowlers of the past 50 years who endured for any length of time went much straighter than most of the other players. Indeed what makes Jason Belmonte so good is that he can manipulate his axis rotation to straighten his shot as much as possible with his incredibly high rev rate.
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well, week 5 of the sport pattern league is in the books! i dont know what the lane pattern was but I do know it was supposed to be 43' in length. I had a rough go at things the first game: 134....YIKES!!!! I was between balls the entire game, Melee wasn't a good look and the ringer blue was even worse. The 10th frame came around and I switched to the Mystic Aura for the last ball and kinda played between 12-8. I struck on that ball and ran up the front 8 the next game and finished with a 264. I had one shot go Jersey but other than that I rolled the ball pretty well. Third game was more of the same as the first game but i was able to string some strikes together for a 189 game. It was a tough shot for me, couldn't get the ball in or it was crossing over and I couldn't get it out past 5 because there was no recovery. i ended up with 587 and that puts my average up to 189! My goal is a 190+ average and I hit my other goal last night to hit at least a 250 game at some point.
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I am envious of those that have access to a sport league.
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week 6:
where do i start.......I guess I can start by saying that I was completely out of touch with bowling for three games lol. I just couldn't get anything going. Only 12 strikes, 5 spares and 15 opens!!! Lots of splits. I either threw a really good shot for a strike or i was way out in left field. I just couldn't hit my intended target to save my life. Miss out and it was disaster.....miss in and it was also disaster. There wasn't any room this week like there was last week. Last week I had about 4 boards to work with, this week it felt like half a board. So here are the numbers, a bit embarrassing, but i can take the heat! 180-140-121.
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In sport leagues you definitely know when you throw a bad shot. You will find when you go back to a typical house shot that you will throw a bad shot, expect a bad result, but still strike. At that point you realize how much easier a house shot is than a sport shot.
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Something people don't understand is that you need more than good execution to hit a sport league pattern. If you are a high rev player with a lot of axis rotation it is almost impossible not to play a lot of out angle. On flatter patterns, even vary small variations in speed or release point get magnified on the back end. Often, even the lane transitions will give bad results. Nobody makes a perfect shot every time on sport patterns. What happens is that there are certain styles that allow for some margin of error on flat patterns.
The biggest problem with house patterns is not that they foster good scoring with errant shots. Rather the house patterns reward styles of release that simply afford no margin of error.
I always use to say, no matter what I was bowling on, that I try to find an angle that gives me the most margin of error, then do my best to use the least of it.
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I always use to say, no matter what I was bowling on, that I try to find an angle that gives me the most margin of error, then do my best to use the least of it.
I always use practice to try a few different angles. Once I find one with a good look, I then start missing left and right on purpose to see if I have any margin for error. If I do, I stick there, if not I try one of the others to see if there's more miss room. I don't "try" to miss when it counts, but I'm realistic to know I am going to no matter how locked in I may be. Knowing I can get away with a small miss gives me the confidence to not think and just do.
So the problem I run into the one time a year I get to bowl on a sport shot (Nationals) is that I am too tight because my head tells me I can't miss at all. All of a sudden I can't hit the broad side of a barn because I'm trying to be perfect. I've done CATS in Reno. My accuracy was professional level. It's not that I can't be accurate, but it's difficult when you never get the chance to bowl on a tougher condition.
I really think everyone should have access to a Sport league. I have no idea how to make that happen, but I don't think bowling can take that next step if people don't even have the option to compete on a tougher condition. People don't appreciate what the pros do because most of them have no understanding of the lane conditions. To be fair, many recreational bowlers still wouldn't know after bowling in a Sport league, but some would. And even if it's only a few, that's a good thing. Then we need to reward people for success in the sport league - real success. Something quality for averaging 200. Something quality for a 300. 800. Heck, even 700. Give people a reason to want to aspire for the challenge. Make them feel good about averaging 200 and reward that. Invest in your bowlers; invest in the sport. Other bowlers will start to get interested when they see that averaging 200 in a Sport league is more rewarding than averaging 220 in a house league. You can't just ask people to get excited about shooting lower scores and expect it to work, but you can give them an incentive to do so. It might work, it might not. At the very least, it will generate some discussion that isn't taking place now.
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We are switching to a Scorpion Pattern tomorrow in our PBA experience league. Can you guys help with a recomendation on how best to start off on the pattern?
From what I read, less rev dominant players play the track while rev dominat players start somewhere aroundf 15 to 7 both with an agressive ball. Being a Rev dominat tweener, Storm/Roto guy, how does a IQ Tour (pin down) or Hypercell (pin up) starting out around 15 to 7 sound for this pattern?
Thanks
MK
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If it's the 47' Scorpion you probably aren't going to be able to get it back from 7.
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We are switching to a Scorpion Pattern tomorrow in our PBA experience league. Can you guys help with a recomendation on how best to start off on the pattern?
From what I read, less rev dominant players play the track while rev dominat players start somewhere aroundf 15 to 7 both with an agressive ball. Being a Rev dominat tweener, Storm/Roto guy, how does a IQ Tour (pin down) or Hypercell (pin up) starting out around 15 to 7 sound for this pattern?
Thanks
MK
15 to 7 will probably be a gutter ball on Scorpion. You have the right idea with 15, but it will be the break point at the end of the pattern, not your target at the arrows. Of course, each house plays different.
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How bout throw the bowling ball down the lane, watch what it does, then adjust than trying to bowl on a piece of paper
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Something I've learned: Don't pay too much attention to the pattern graph. You can get a general idea of what to expect, but surface friction and topography matters more than the graph does. In our Jr Gold preparation league, they are teaching the kids how to read lane graphs and what they tell you, plus the whole rule of 31 thing, but what the guy running it learned really quick was that I was able to find where the shot was at regardless of where the sheet said it should be at, and he started telling all the kids to watch where/how I was playing the lanes. It's just because I know our surface really well. A few shots have played close to where the sheet said they should, but because our surface is really high friction, a lot play completely backwards. Flat shots play well from deep, and the heavier shots actually play pretty well outside. All about ball reaction. A lot of times I don't like knowing too much about the pattern to begin with because it messes with my head. I watch my ball reaction and create my own mental lane graph.
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We are switching to a Scorpion Pattern tomorrow in our PBA experience league. Can you guys help with a recomendation on how best to start off on the pattern?
From what I read, less rev dominant players play the track while rev dominat players start somewhere aroundf 15 to 7 both with an agressive ball. Being a Rev dominat tweener, Storm/Roto guy, how does a IQ Tour (pin down) or Hypercell (pin up) starting out around 15 to 7 sound for this pattern?
Thanks
MK
Go throw a ball and see what it does, stop with the preconceived ideas and bowling pamphlets on where you should play.
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Something I've learned: Don't pay too much attention to the pattern graph. You can get a general idea of what to expect, but surface friction and topography matters more than the graph does. In our Jr Gold preparation league, they are teaching the kids how to read lane graphs and what they tell you, plus the whole rule of 31 thing, but what the guy running it learned really quick was that I was able to find where the shot was at regardless of where the sheet said it should be at, and he started telling all the kids to watch where/how I was playing the lanes. It's just because I know our surface really well. A few shots have played close to where the sheet said they should, but because our surface is really high friction, a lot play completely backwards. Flat shots play well from deep, and the heavier shots actually play pretty well outside. All about ball reaction. A lot of times I don't like knowing too much about the pattern to begin with because it messes with my head. I watch my ball reaction and create my own mental lane graph.
Off topic, but I bowl a sport league in the fall and theres always one guy in particular bitching and moaning because majority of the guys that score don't play up first arrow. He always references the "PBA sheets" on what ball to use and where to play and I reference his 171 average.
I truly believe he is content averaging 170 playing the lanes how the "comic book" says to rather than what the lane dictates.
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The sheet is fine as long as no one throws a ball. Most people assume sport patterns are "slicker" and cave the pattern in with the charcoal of their choice.
Traffic and lane surface are more important than the sheet especially when you bowl in a house like Northface where there is hang on the gutter even on Cheetah. :)
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The printed patterns are just guidelines of course. But the overall idea will remain the same. So if you bowl on the same lanes, each pattern will play to it's characteristics in relation to the other patterns on a given surface. For example, Cheetah will always hook earlier than Scorpion on the fresh.
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Question then when you speak of the characteristics who exactly are they designed for? Which bowler?
There are too many variables that come into play to truly believe much else than your ba reaction than what someone else tells you
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Question then when you speak of the characteristics who exactly are they designed for? Which bowler?
There are too many variables that come into play to truly believe much else than your ba reaction than what someone else tells you
If you are referring to my post, perhaps you stopped reading before the last sentence. The pattern sheets are just a place to start. Every pattern will transition according to the lane surface and bowlers on the pair.
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I read the whole post
Doesn't answer my question
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Cheetah will always hook earlier than Scorpion on the fresh.
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I would say they will play to a few of their major characteristics like length, but for instance the US Open pattern plays SUPER easy at our home house because there's hook where there isn't supposed to be hook. Medium to long and/or heavier patterns play a lot easier because of all the friction, but short and/or dry is a nightmare. The Cheetah may always hook earlier, but the Scorpion is easier at my home house than the Cheetah because the higher friction changes the characteristics.
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I would say they will play to a few of their major characteristics like length, but for instance the US Open pattern plays SUPER easy at our home house because there's hook where there isn't supposed to be hook. Medium to long and/or heavier patterns play a lot easier because of all the friction, but short and/or dry is a nightmare. The Cheetah may always hook earlier, but the Scorpion is easier at my home house than the Cheetah because the higher friction changes the characteristics.
Yes, I completely agree with you Giz. The local house bowlers have a big effect on how flat patterns play.
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JustRico must be getting old, he's starting to sound like a "get off my lawn" kind of guy.
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15 to 7 will probably be a gutter ball on Scorpion. You have the right idea with 15, but it will be the break point at the end of the pattern, not your target at the arrows. Of course, each house plays different.
Milo, Thanks for the constructive advice. When I start my 10 minutes of practice before league play, I will begin with a 15 to 10 look and adjust accordingly.
Best,
MK
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15 to 7 will probably be a gutter ball on Scorpion. You have the right idea with 15, but it will be the break point at the end of the pattern, not your target at the arrows. Of course, each house plays different.
Milo, Thanks for the constructive advice. When I start my 10 minutes of practice before league play, I will begin with a 15 to 10 look and adjust accordingly.
Best,
MK
That's the smart thing to do. Never ignore the normal house shot track, which will more often than not be around the 10 board. With all the THS bowlers playing that area, often there will be good friction that can give you some miss room. Especially in houses with older lanes.
But as JustRico has noted, watch your ball(and the other bowlers on your pair), it will tell you everything you need to know.
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Two or three points. First, I never look at the edge to edge pattern, just the length of the buff. That is the biggest difference in sport patterns and house patterns. The end of the oil determines when the ball starts to move, no matter where you play the lanes on sport patterns. On a house shot the hook spot depends on when the ball gets right of the oil line.
Also, very good advice on trying to know where the house track is. Older synthetics track just like wood did. Especially important on longer patterns where you are looking to get the track to open a bit.
Finally, there are exceptions to every rule. I recently bowled three weeks on the Badger pattern in a summer league. I previously bowled a rolloff on this pattern in a different house in April. In the rolloff the best strategy was just what they say, square up inside 10, keep your break point tight. I was able to average a bit over 200, as the pattern opened up to 2 and 1 moves after less than 2 games. In the recetnt situation on similar Anvil lane surface with a similar lane machine the shot was totally unplayable deeper, and nobody scored inside. I finally went out to about 7 board, and just jammed the ball toward the pocket using a solid IQ. Even out there I was leaving a pocket hit split every game, but I out averaged the rest of the house by 10 pins per game.
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No not getting olde just get tired of the wasted energy of what something is called...too many variables as well as the largest one - who exactly is a 'pattern' created for? It has characteristics but exactly for who? Too many bowlers have lost track of what exactly their ball reaction is instead of what it's supposed to be as in, identify what your bowling ball is doing and adjust instead of saying a 'pattern' didn't play right...all that means is you didn't move your feet...too many uneducated bowlers with too many excuses...that may sound arrogant or egotistical but we managed to survive for a long time without names of the lane conditions we bowled on, just whether they were lower scoring or not...
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Too many get caught up in thinking that they are bowling on something instead of realizing what they are bowling on...
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Rico...maybe we mainland bowlers bowl too much THS and not enogh tougher patterns.
I just came back from overseas and the house I bowled as a kid put down WTBA patterns for their leagues all year round and switch it up during the season. I asked what pattern I was bowling on, and the boss/friend replied with the length - that was it. In fact, the other guys don't know the names of the pattern too, just the length. They seem not to care much about names or sheets, more real time stuff.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
W I N N E R
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Rico,
I will repeat, I asked for a "starting point" line so I can adjust as efficiently as possible in the 10 minutes of practice time I have before league. I agree with your thoughts I think you went off on a unrealeated tangent to my question.
MK
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It's not solely directed at you but seriously the amount of variables involved for the simplicity of an answer is ludicrous....
Throw your bowling ball...if the length is longer, play closer to the pocket...then move your feet...you are relying on something less than your ability...for a 'true' answer that is not there
If you can't get lined up in 10 mins then you may seek a coach
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Lots more than just lining up, or being accurate. The modern balls accompanied with the modern styles make most house bowlers too rev dominant,which inhibits their ability to play squarer through the heads.
Watch the best pros ( O' Neil, Barnes, even Rash and Belmo) They have learned how to use their ball speed and lower axis rotation to play straighter, even with their high rev rates. That is what the pros know that most good THS shooters do not. I do not disrespect guys who score high on house shots. They are skilled, and more accurate than people believe. What they usually lack is the versatility to square up and be comfortable, because they developed their game around swing area. Swing area is addictive. I remember as a kid even with rubber balls, I liked to hook the ball, and had a terrible time on fresh patterns
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Lest we forget the importance of ABILITY to manipulate the hand at the bottom, multiple ways, ALL consistently. ;) ;) ;)
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Well but that's just it, if you lock yourself into a starting point that ends up being nowhere close or doesn't fit your A game, you could make it worse on yourself than easier. Another point is that you aren't the only person practicing for those 10 minutes. You've got people on your pair and the pair next to you. If you're just watching your ball reaction alone, you're already behind the curve. Not to dump on you or anything, but sometimes you can overprepare . . When I warm up, I glance at the sheet, but more or less to get an idea where everyone ELSE is going to play so when we move from pair to pair, I have a better idea where the transition is going to be. But as far as warming up, I just get loose while I watch the reaction everyone else is getting in practice, and that tells me where to play. I just throw a few verification shots before practice is over.
Rico,
I will repeat, I asked for a "starting point" line so I can adjust as efficiently as possible in the 10 minutes of practice time I have before league. I agree with your thoughts I think you went off on a unrealeated tangent to my question.
MK
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I asked for a "starting point" line so I can adjust as efficiently as possible in the 10 minutes of practice time I have before league.
Well, won't you be getting that starting point in practice by simply reading your ball motion? Seems to me you should (in 10 mins) be able to find out which zone of the lane (1st-2nd-3rd-4th arrow etc) you should start at.
I think Wes Malott came up w/some system........try looking at that.
I do have to note though, your ball motion should be dictating what you do and where you start. I know what you want, you want someone to say "This is Shark, play 18-12 to start", but in reality every pattern is different and requires you to read your ball motion and go from there.
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Just to clarify my position since it has come across as crass or cynical...the environment that has been created for bowlers of all levels, today is a complete reliance on what they are being told their environment instead of truly understanding what it is.
Bowlers no longer understand 'how' to bowl and rely on how a piece of paper tells them to bowl.
Patterns have crippled the game more than any other entity by eliminating creativity and ability...the learning process is no longer honing your skills on the lanes but studying diagrams not understanding the variables that dictate reaction and motion - topography, pane surface (type and age), conditioner (length and volume), lane machine (as we as being properly tuned), cleaner and climate - inside and outside of center...not ever bowler will approach or attack a condition similarity - comfort zones have to be considered.
The manufacturers have not made the landscape much better with the latest greatest weekly repeat...MMs - just a different color piece of chocolate.
Bowlers need to get out and practice, learn their ball motion, understand their ball motion and learn how to adjust...quit relying on a magic bowling ball or piece of paper.
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I have bowled a few events on "sport" patterns and it is funny. The word alone eliminates bowlers from showing up. A few events said it was a sport pattern, gave the length of the pattern and the oil ratio. Turned out to be the normal house shot lol. This was missed by many because they bowled off what they thought the shot was and not what they were seeing.
Ive subbed a few times this summer on a sport league that puts out the same pattern two weeks in a row and then changes. The first week you have no idea the shot. The second week you know what to expect. I love it. You have to adjust and make spares. Averaging 200 has never been so much fun. Grinding out scores is an art. I prefer this. Spares are worth a lot more along with good shot repeating.
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Just to clarify my position since it has come across as crass or cynical...the environment that has been created for bowlers of all levels, today is a complete reliance on what they are being told their environment instead of truly understanding what it is.
Bowlers no longer understand 'how' to bowl and rely on how a piece of paper tells them to bowl.
Patterns have crippled the game more than any other entity by eliminating creativity and ability...the learning process is no longer honing your skills on the lanes but studying diagrams not understanding the variables that dictate reaction and motion - topography, pane surface (type and age), conditioner (length and volume), lane machine (as we as being properly tuned), cleaner and climate - inside and outside of center...not ever bowler will approach or attack a condition similarity - comfort zones have to be considered.
The manufacturers have not made the landscape much better with the latest greatest weekly repeat...MMs - just a different color piece of chocolate.
Bowlers need to get out and practice, learn their ball motion, understand their ball motion and learn how to adjust...quit relying on a magic bowling ball or piece of paper.
YES!
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I guess I'm ahead of the game since I have no idea what any of the information on the sheets means. I have to just react to what I'm seeing because I have no other option.
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Quit believing there's a predetermined path to the pocket on every 'pattern'
That's like assuming there is one way and only way to play a golf hole to succeed...not the case
As Joe stated BELIEVE YOUR EYES and REACT ACCORDINGLY
You are bowling not trying to pass a test on a piece of paper
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You guys crack me up.
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There is no substitute for reading lanes, and understanding what your ball reaction tells you. In addition all patterns transition, and it is adjusting as lanes transition that leads to success.
There is no substitute for this ability, and only experience really teaches it. However that experience will tell you how different patterns and buff lengths react to your game. I think learning to understand what graphs can tell you is very valuable, but they should never be read as a chiseled in granite formula. Keeping an open mind can be tough sometimes, but is the other essential.
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There is no substitute for reading lanes, and understanding what your ball reaction tells you. In addition all patterns transition, and it is adjusting as lanes transition that leads to success.
There is no substitute for this ability, and only experience really teaches it. However that experience will tell you how different patterns and buff lengths react to your game. I think learning to understand what graphs can tell you is very valuable, but they should never be read as a chiseled in granite formula. Keeping an open mind can be tough sometimes, but is the other essential.
Come on avabob, you have not been following the thread close enough. All that extra information available is just non-sense. Ain't worth the paper it's printed on. Just huck the ball down the lane anywhere and make the adjustment. Golly, you have ten entire minutes to figure out where to start your first game of competition, so why bother with reading some silly lane graph or pattern description for an idea of where to throw that first ball? In fact, I don't know why the PBA, USBC, Kegel etc even print that useless crap. Just watch your ball reaction and adjust, doesn't matter if you have no friggin idea of where to start, just throw the damn ball down the lane.
And if case some of you missed it, yes that's SARCASM.
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Man I was right there with you until you said you were being sarcastic . .
There is no substitute for reading lanes, and understanding what your ball reaction tells you. In addition all patterns transition, and it is adjusting as lanes transition that leads to success.
There is no substitute for this ability, and only experience really teaches it. However that experience will tell you how different patterns and buff lengths react to your game. I think learning to understand what graphs can tell you is very valuable, but they should never be read as a chiseled in granite formula. Keeping an open mind can be tough sometimes, but is the other essential.
Come on avabob, you have not been following the thread close enough. All that extra information available is just non-sense. Ain't worth the paper it's printed on. Just huck the ball down the lane anywhere and make the adjustment. Golly, you have ten entire minutes to figure out where to start your first game of competition, so why bother with reading some silly lane graph or pattern description for an idea of where to throw that first ball? In fact, I don't know why the PBA, USBC, Kegel etc even print that useless crap. Just watch your ball reaction and adjust, doesn't matter if you have no friggin idea of where to start, just throw the damn ball down the lane.
And if case some of you missed it, yes that's SARCASM.
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So what happens when that sheet isn't there? In this JR Gold prep league, they're allowing adults to bowl with the kids to simulate some tougher competition, and also to teach them. They have a little meeting with the kids before the league, show them the graph, talk a little about the shot, and then we go bowl. The guys running the thing were a little miffed at me at first because I wasn't playing the lanes the way the sheet said they were supposed to be played. I got several questions of, "Why are you playing inside when the sheet says the line is outside?" My reply was always, "Because I want to knock the pins down." Once they started seeing how much higher my scores were than everyone else's, they changed their thinking a bit. Plus all these shots are going down on 15 year old Anvilane, a couple of the houses at Jr Gold are WOOD. If you pay any kind of attention to the pattern or the graph down there, you're going to be completely screwed.
Bottom line, you can have your graphs and your sheets that give you all this information, and I'll just take your money.
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Well have at it then. I'm sure none of the guys who actually make a living bowling ever look at a lane graph.
So what happens when that sheet isn't there? In this JR Gold prep league, they're allowing adults to bowl with the kids to simulate some tougher competition, and also to teach them. They have a little meeting with the kids before the league, show them the graph, talk a little about the shot, and then we go bowl. The guys running the thing were a little miffed at me at first because I wasn't playing the lanes the way the sheet said they were supposed to be played. I got several questions of, "Why are you playing inside when the sheet says the line is outside?" My reply was always, "Because I want to knock the pins down." Once they started seeing how much higher my scores were than everyone else's, they changed their thinking a bit. Plus all these shots are going down on 15 year old Anvilane, a couple of the houses at Jr Gold are WOOD. If you pay any kind of attention to the pattern or the graph down there, you're going to be completely screwed.
Bottom line, you can have your graphs and your sheets that give you all this information, and I'll just take your money.
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Bottom line, you can have your graphs and your sheets that give you all this information, and I'll just take your money.
This.
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I can't say this with 100% certainty since I don't know how to read the graphs, but I'm sure there's value to reading them and getting an idea of what they say. I think (if I'm understanding correctly) what is being said is that you take that understanding and combine it with what you are seeing. If reading the pattern was all it took, the Riggs' of the world wouldn't bother practicing on the USBC pattern since they know exactly what it's going to do. It seems they take that information, form a plan, then (hopefully) prepare to alter the plan based on what they see on the lanes.
What I see are a lot of people that know just enough to be dangerous. They understand basic concepts, but lack the experience (or ability) to adapt when things are not what they expect. The house shot tricks these people into thinking they are skilled, but when they hit the flatter patterns, they can't understand what the ball is doing because they've never seen that reaction before. They average 210 at home and go to Nationals (for example) and average 170. You put a bunch of those guys on the same pair at Nationals and all hell breaks loose with the shot.
I'm not picking on anybody with this post. I just described myself. Experience on challenging patterns is critical to growing as a bowler. You can pack so much information into your head, but if you never get the chance to see what happens when you apply that knowledge, the knowledge actually hurts more than it helps. Once a year at Nationals isn't experience because it's been too long for you to remember exactly what you saw last time out. This is why I think USBC has to figure out a way (and I have no idea how to do it) to mandate a sport league being available to anyone that wants to participate in it.
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I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but that's the absolute truth. You think Pete Weber cares what's on the lane graph? If you know how to bowl you don't need a lane graph. You think these guys learn anything about the Badger or the Wolf or anything from a lane graph? I can pretty well guarantee you the best in the world don't care what the graph says, they care what the lane and their ball reaction is telling them. So what if the graph tells you to play somewhere and the shot doesn't end up being there? What did people do before lane graphs?
Well have at it then. I'm sure none of the guys who actually make a living bowling ever look at a lane graph.
So what happens when that sheet isn't there? In this JR Gold prep league, they're allowing adults to bowl with the kids to simulate some tougher competition, and also to teach them. They have a little meeting with the kids before the league, show them the graph, talk a little about the shot, and then we go bowl. The guys running the thing were a little miffed at me at first because I wasn't playing the lanes the way the sheet said they were supposed to be played. I got several questions of, "Why are you playing inside when the sheet says the line is outside?" My reply was always, "Because I want to knock the pins down." Once they started seeing how much higher my scores were than everyone else's, they changed their thinking a bit. Plus all these shots are going down on 15 year old Anvilane, a couple of the houses at Jr Gold are WOOD. If you pay any kind of attention to the pattern or the graph down there, you're going to be completely screwed.
Bottom line, you can have your graphs and your sheets that give you all this information, and I'll just take your money.
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I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but that's the absolute truth. You think Pete Weber cares what's on the lane graph? If you know how to bowl you don't need a lane graph. You think these guys learn anything about the Badger or the Wolf or anything from a lane graph? I can pretty well guarantee you the best in the world don't care what the graph says, they care what the lane and their ball reaction is telling them. So what if the graph tells you to play somewhere and the shot doesn't end up being there? What did people do before lane graphs?
Well have at it then. I'm sure none of the guys who actually make a living bowling ever look at a lane graph.
So what happens when that sheet isn't there? In this JR Gold prep league, they're allowing adults to bowl with the kids to simulate some tougher competition, and also to teach them. They have a little meeting with the kids before the league, show them the graph, talk a little about the shot, and then we go bowl. The guys running the thing were a little miffed at me at first because I wasn't playing the lanes the way the sheet said they were supposed to be played. I got several questions of, "Why are you playing inside when the sheet says the line is outside?" My reply was always, "Because I want to knock the pins down." Once they started seeing how much higher my scores were than everyone else's, they changed their thinking a bit. Plus all these shots are going down on 15 year old Anvilane, a couple of the houses at Jr Gold are WOOD. If you pay any kind of attention to the pattern or the graph down there, you're going to be completely screwed.
Bottom line, you can have your graphs and your sheets that give you all this information, and I'll just take your money.
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Of course Pete Weber doesn't need to see a lane graph. He bowls on the patterns all them time. But if it's a pattern Pete has never seen before, you mean to tell me he doesn't even bother to look at the lane graph? If that's what you are saying, then you are clueless.
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I can't say this with 100% certainty since I don't know how to read the graphs, but I'm sure there's value to reading them and getting an idea of what they say. I think (if I'm understanding correctly) what is being said is that you take that understanding and combine it with what you are seeing. If reading the pattern was all it took, the Riggs' of the world wouldn't bother practicing on the USBC pattern since they know exactly what it's going to do. It seems they take that information, form a plan, then (hopefully) prepare to alter the plan based on what they see on the lanes.
What I see are a lot of people that know just enough to be dangerous. They understand basic concepts, but lack the experience (or ability) to adapt when things are not what they expect. The house shot tricks these people into thinking they are skilled, but when they hit the flatter patterns, they can't understand what the ball is doing because they've never seen that reaction before. They average 210 at home and go to Nationals (for example) and average 170. You put a bunch of those guys on the same pair at Nationals and all hell breaks loose with the shot.
I'm not picking on anybody with this post. I just described myself. Experience on challenging patterns is critical to growing as a bowler. You can pack so much information into your head, but if you never get the chance to see what happens when you apply that knowledge, the knowledge actually hurts more than it helps. Once a year at Nationals isn't experience because it's been too long for you to remember exactly what you saw last time out. This is why I think USBC has to figure out a way (and I have no idea how to do it) to mandate a sport league being available to anyone that wants to participate in it.
You're right Joe, but this entire thing started because someone ask about where to look to start in shadow. Not how to play the lane, but where to look to start the pattern.
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That'll be the day......If USBC starts putting down shots that are not THS for leagues, like the one house I bowled (WTBA patterns - centeral lanes, GU.) as a kid overseas, more and more people will leave the game and more houses will close. Most of those 220 will cry and throw a fit at the front desk too before they leave...
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That'll be the day......If USBC starts putting down shots that are not THS for leagues, like the one house I bowled (WTBA patterns - centeral lanes, GU.) as a kid overseas, more and more people will leave the game and more houses will close. Most of those 220 will cry and throw a fit at the front desk too before they leave...
Very true, and those customers will leave that house in droves to another house with a shot conducive to them maintaining that average. If that wasn't the case, PBA and sport shot leagues would have a waiting list. As it is, they are hard to find in a lot of places. I have to drive 45 miles each way to bowl my PBA league. I pass no fewer than five houses I would bowl if they offered the more honest conditions.
There is a place for the THS in my opinion. I just wish more bowlers took the sport side of bowling more seriously.
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Here's the moral of the story: On sport patterns, just stand left and throw it right. If you can't do that then just quit! :P :P :P :D
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I am going to tell you something from my own experience that may be interesting about playing different shots. Many years ago I said some decent luck in the ABC masters on several occasions. One of the reasons I liked the Masters was that I felt I had a level playing field, or even a slight advantage over the touring pros during qualifying. The reason is that the ABC Masters pattern was a lot different than what the guys on tour, and their ball reps were use to seeing. In the late 90's it played fairly close to what we call the Chameleon today. You could play multiple angles, but you couldn't get recovery if you tried to create more out angle than the pattern dictated. On tour the guys never got hold area, but there was always swing area if you played them correctly.
As a result I often saw guys who were totally dominating the tour struggle on the Masters pattern. Their ball reps often were not helpful because they didn't have experience watching their guys on this pattern either. In addition the transitions were often different than what they were seeing on tour. My advantage was that I didn't come in with a preconceived notion. The Masters patterns favored a straighter game on fresh, and the tour power players were on the defensive for the first 3 or 4 games. Those who managed to find something deep didn't have any place to move when they transitioned.
Strategies and the game has changed over the past 15 years, but I always found it interesting how quickly many of the pros struggled outside their own comfort zone. Just as an addendum, they would have destroyed me on most of the tour shots because they built their game around something I didn't see very often
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I'm not looking for every league to be a sport league. One per week per association with more than (x) number of bowlers is fine. I have no interest in killing THS leagues, I just want to see people that want to raise their game having the opportunity to do so.
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That'll be the day......If USBC starts putting down shots that are not THS for leagues, like the one house I bowled (WTBA patterns - centeral lanes, GU.) as a kid overseas, more and more people will leave the game and more houses will close. Most of those 220 will cry and throw a fit at the front desk too before they leave...
Very true, and those customers will leave that house in droves to another house with a shot conducive to them maintaining that average. If that wasn't the case, PBA and sport shot leagues would have a waiting list. As it is, they are hard to find in a lot of places. I have to drive 45 miles each way to bowl my PBA league. I pass no fewer than five houses I would bowl if they offered the more honest conditions.
There is a place for the THS in my opinion. I just wish more bowlers took the sport side of bowling more seriously.
Speaking of waiting list..... that use to be the case just to join a league back in the day lol. Now, I'm getting calls (just had a voicemail 20 mins ago) months before winter league almost begging me join their league.....
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About the same percentage of league bowlers complained about the shot 50 years ago. They were either too slick, or too dry was the usual complaint, and the scratch bowlers were always the worst. The felt they had the right to the lanes playing the same very night. We didn't have graphs or 30K lane machines to put out precisely measured patterns, but anytime somebody bowled bad it was the lane mans fault.
When I look back at how little I knew, even into the 70's, it amazes me.
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I guess my point is that ball reaction will always tell the truth. Several months ago I bowled on Dead Man's Curve for the first time, never looked at the graph. Found the shot inside 5 minutes, proceeded to do very well on it. We hit that pattern a few weeks ago in the Jr Gold league, where I finally did take a look at the pattern. Didn't tell me anything I didn't know, didn't help me out in any way, but I did notice it didn't quite play how the sheet said it was supposed to. The graph isn't completely irrelevant, but I guess it's like filling a bucket with water a cup at a time if you have a hose . . I just don't see the point or the need. The amount of variables in bowling make it overwhelmingly a feel sport. People need to be taught the feel supported by information, not the other way around.
Somebody earlier referenced Wes Malott's system. He starts in the same place on every pattern, then he moves a bit one direction, a bit more, then goes the opposite direction a few times. Those shots tells him pretty well all he needs to know. I would imagine he does the same, but I create a mental lane graph, and most of the time it doesn't match the one on paper. Obviously it will be similar, but the small details are the most important. That's why something as seemingly simple as telling someone where to start could be way off. Lane topography and surface friction can easily turn a pattern completely around.
For instance, our surface plays drier across the board. So a shot on paper may look like the best line is outside. In that case, most of the time the shot ends up being significantly deeper because what looks on paper to be predictable and stable usually ends up being too dry to play, and the oil in the middle that looks too wet to play on paper usually ends up being just about right.
So to circle back around to the original question of where to start? Start wherever you feel comfortable and adjust from there. You will always do better playing as close to your A game as possible than trying to play your C game just because that's where the graph said to play. Look at Norm Duke and Liz Johnson. They're extremely good at playing off the ditch regardless of the pattern. They start with where they're comfortable and make small adjustments. It's important to be versatile, but if you find a pro who doesn't play their A game if at all possible, you're fooling yourself. But more often than not people will read a graph and spend all of practice and possibly beyond trying to play where it says to, and if it doesn't work, they've just wasted 10 minutes. If you read the graph, start where it says to, and are able to adjust in a few shots, I'm not sure why you needed the graph in the first place. Also, just because you happen to find a shot where the graph says it should be doesn't mean there isn't a better one elsewhere that would suit your style more. Surface friction and topography may make another area wide open.
All this reduces the importance or usefulness of a graph down to a couple shots at the maximum, because once you're familiar with it, why would you need to look at it again? But at the same time, it also limits and focuses your brain. In a sport where you need to make big adjustments on the fly and be confident in them, having your brain tell you, "but the sheet said this won't work," is counterproductive. A graph will always cause more problems than it will solve. Might as well give a golfer a graph of a green, won't tell them a thing until they actually hit a few putts.
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but that's the absolute truth. You think Pete Weber cares what's on the lane graph? If you know how to bowl you don't need a lane graph. You think these guys learn anything about the Badger or the Wolf or anything from a lane graph? I can pretty well guarantee you the best in the world don't care what the graph says, they care what the lane and their ball reaction is telling them. So what if the graph tells you to play somewhere and the shot doesn't end up being there? What did people do before lane graphs?
Well have at it then. I'm sure none of the guys who actually make a living bowling ever look at a lane graph.
So what happens when that sheet isn't there? In this JR Gold prep league, they're allowing adults to bowl with the kids to simulate some tougher competition, and also to teach them. They have a little meeting with the kids before the league, show them the graph, talk a little about the shot, and then we go bowl. The guys running the thing were a little miffed at me at first because I wasn't playing the lanes the way the sheet said they were supposed to be played. I got several questions of, "Why are you playing inside when the sheet says the line is outside?" My reply was always, "Because I want to knock the pins down." Once they started seeing how much higher my scores were than everyone else's, they changed their thinking a bit. Plus all these shots are going down on 15 year old Anvilane, a couple of the houses at Jr Gold are WOOD. If you pay any kind of attention to the pattern or the graph down there, you're going to be completely screwed.
Bottom line, you can have your graphs and your sheets that give you all this information, and I'll just take your money.
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Of course Pete Weber doesn't need to see a lane graph. He bowls on the patterns all them time. But if it's a pattern Pete has never seen before, you mean to tell me he doesn't even bother to look at the lane graph? If that's what you are saying, then you are clueless.
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But every golf course I have ever played DID give you a description, usually printed on the back of the score card. Not a graph of the green, but at least an overhead view of the hole. And it helps if you know what you are looking for. It's like the pins on the green, if you know the course, the pin can tell you from a distance where the hole is cut. That's good information to have if you know how to use it. Does it take into account cross, head or tailing winds? Of course not, but it's still valuable information for someone who knows how to exploit it.
Here is the question for you naysayers, if the lane graphs are sooooooooo useless, why do they exist?
Personally, I want to see a lane graph. The main things I look for are length of course, total units applied, and number of loads from 2 to 2. That gives me a decent idea of how the pattern was intended to play before everything else modified it.
Then again, I ain't no professional like you guys, so I'll take all the help I can get.
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Points taken, but I'm not really sure why lane graphs exist. I understand the intent, but the variables render them generally useless. I'm not saying I completely ignore them, I'm just saying I don't pay much attention to them, it's more of a general interest thing rather than looking for information, or like I said earlier, to get an idea where everybody else is going to play so I can adjust quicker to the transition since we move pairs every game. But still, that only works because I know our surface. If the same pattern is down at another house, the transition won't work like that. If the graph helps you out, great, because it's all about not making ANYTHING cookie cutter, but by and large, graphs are a mirage.
But every golf course I have ever played DID give you a description, usually printed on the back of the score card. Not a graph of the green, but at least an overhead view of the hole. And it helps if you know what you are looking for. It's like the pins on the green, if you know the course, the pin can tell you from a distance where the hole is cut. That's good information to have if you know how to use it. Does it take into account cross, head or tailing winds? Of course not, but it's still valuable information for someone who knows how to exploit it.
Here is the question for you naysayers, if the lane graphs are sooooooooo useless, why do they exist?
Personally, I want to see a lane graph. The main things I look for are length of course, total units applied, and number of loads from 2 to 2. That gives me a decent idea of how the pattern was intended to play before everything else modified it.
Then again, I ain't no professional like you guys, so I'll take all the help I can get.
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I am not a big fan of the graphs but I have found links like the following good to clue me in on what to expect on each sport pattern that I have never bowled on before. As I have said repeatedly in this post, I use them as a guide to figure out where to throw my first practice ball and then I adjust based on the reaction I see.
http://www.epicbowling.com/pba-patterns/ (http://www.epicbowling.com/pba-patterns/)
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So you don't like graphs but you like it when somebody gives a description of where to play. That's just somebody holding your hand because you can't read the graph and load chart.
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The link has a helluva lot more content than the graph alone.
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If you can read and understand the load chart you can write that article. If you can't read the load chart you read the article.
All that link does is decode the graph and load chart for those that don't understand what they are looking at.
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Those descriptions are out of date actually. Viper is much different in the current version than the one listed. The current Viper pattern is 39' and it shows to be 37' on your link.
Scorpion is even more different than your link shows. These days it's 47', not 41'.
Just so you know. :-)
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Graphs may or may not give a lot of useful information. I can say this. I have never been hurt by looking at a graph, because I take it for what it is worth. I do get some help by looking at the buff distance. Under 40 feet, and I might spend a bit more time trying to find something out. Over 42, and I will try to find something close to the normal house track. Most of the time I try to see what my reaction looks like at various lines between 7 and 10, and will look to see what ball gives me the best look. One thing I do know is that graphs seldom give me a good idea on ball selection.
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I love it...the current version...EXACTLY MY POINT!
So if a 'bowler' doesn't know the difference between a good shot and a bad one other than the outcome - 'I struck therefore it was a good shot'...'knowing' or being told where to start and 10 mins of shadow is going to amount to?
First shot - 3 right of 'target' - 3 off the right
Second shot - 4 left - 5 off the left
What's the next move?
You are apparently much smarter than the rest of us cause you know all the cool names and 'how' they're s'posed to play...CONGRATS
95+% of the bowlers have no clue what a good shot is so YOU keep telling how to play YOUR named 'patterns' and bowlers will NEVER get better
YOU CRACK ME UP
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Experience gained through trail and error, along with studying the game is the formula to get better. Also it took me a long time to realize this, but there is an innate talent that is not possessed by everyone. I spent many years patting myself on the back for outworking other guys in terms of practice and learning as keys to any success I had. In truth I know understand that I have a good build for the game, and a good sense of timing and hand eye coordination. I also remember when I was 15 years old that I could usually tell from the look of my roll pattern when a ball was going to react good in the pocket. On the negative side, I underestimated my ability to be versatile and adjust my game to conditions like short oil, causing me to struggle for several years fighting the environment rather than adopting to it.
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Experience is learning from positive as well as negative results..merely being given the answers doesn't teach you if one does not know how to apply the answers...you can be taught the game but that doesn't mean you know how to play it
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Also it took me a long time to realize this, but there is an innate talent that is not possessed by everyone.
This.
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I'm in Jr/Adult league that has different condition every week. Loads of fun. Count me as one who likes to see sheet beforehand. I like to see length and overall oil as baseline.
My issue comes in that the lanes change so quickly to the lane topography that I find myself better off just breaking down the oil around the 2nd arrow track on virtually every pattern. Found myself there even on patterns under 36 feet length just because there would be just enough play around the track and burn it up leaving me with dry left of what initally looked great. I thought I'd see people playing many different angles throughout the different weeks, but most are in same area by 3rd game. I find myself watching other bowlers more watching where they're playing and where their ball hooks.
For those of you with vast experience, thanks for sharing. Those of us less skilled can get ideas to practice.
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I haven't bowled a sport league in 2 years but i bowl a tournament series around my area that visits different houses every month and on holidays. These tournaments through out the series are all sweepers on various patterns of different lengths. All of them have started and finished similar minus the 47ft pattern. Every other one will start somewhat deep and just chase in. The sheets all show how hey should play but my ball reaction is so similar it really hasn't mattered much that all I really ask about now is length. That's the only thing that has given me any help at all before hand but it's nothing I couldn't figure out during practice. But this is just my opinion I truly believe that your own style is gonna manage how small or big the differences you may see are.
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Also it took me a long time to realize this, but there is an innate talent that is not possessed by everyone.
This.
To bad very few people understand this
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There has always been a saying that bowling is the easiest game to learn, but one of the most difficult to master. A big problem is that bowling is one of the few games where the entire environment is on a man made artificial surface. For this reason the lane man has always been the scape goat for any bad performances, but in truth the lane man does possess the power to make almost any of us look bad, or good. There are so many variables in the environment that nobody is versatile enough to excel on all of them, unless they have had experience. As an example it wasn't many years ago the lanes in some countries were so dry that the helicopter spinner players could compete throwing 12 lb balls against our best bowlers.
I think bowlers who have had a chance to hone their games and gain experience on a variety of sport patterns are better than all but the top 10 or 20 pros from 30 years ago.
Another thing I see is how much guys improve on sport patterns over the course of a couple of years. I have averaged as high in a couple of sport leagues as I did on house shots at least 3 times over the past 7 or 8 years. The reason is that I have tried to adjust my tweener style roll to obtain a balance between power and accuracy. The THS is an extreme pattern in the sense of the wet dry across the lane. It rewards extreme styles, either power players who can take advantage of the dry to cover a lot of boards, or straight fluffers who can throw the ball down the dirt with just enough flop to carry. Both styles will often out carry me on house shots.
However the fluffers cant carry with me on the heavier flatter patterns, and the power guys miss the pocket too much if they try to hook the lane too much. The guys I cant beat are the high rev guys with low axis rotation who are comfortable playing direct angles through the heads.
I win a lot more than I should at my age because most of the young guys don't have the experience on tougher patterns.