Post by: hotshot187 on July 16, 2006, 12:25:22 PM
Thanks,
Doug
Post by: Jesse James on July 16, 2006, 08:36:04 PM
My hand can too easily clench, cup, or loosely hold the span holes, therefore not affording me the defined "feel" needed to get proper muscle memory going, while trying to repeat shots.
On the stretched span, I immediately know the grip "feel", and can alter or adjust my releases based on that benchmark, starting point.
Hope that helps.
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Duct tape is like 'The Force'. It has a light side and a dark side, but it still holds the universe together.
Some days you're the bug; some days you're the windshield.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on July 16, 2006, 08:48:40 PM
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Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: TWOHAND834 on July 16, 2006, 08:50:33 PM
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Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: JohnP on July 16, 2006, 09:26:36 PM
quote:
Can somebody explain the differences and why would chose one over the other?
With a relaxed fingertip grip, when your thumb is in its hole with the fingers extending comfortably but not stretched over the top of the finger holes, the first joint (closest to the nail) will be about half way between the front and back edge of the hole. With a stretched grip the first joint will be at the front edge of the hole. In the day of plastic and rubber balls, some bowlers thought you could get more lift and turn on the ball with a stretched grip. But it led to many joint problems. The relaxed grip is now the standard. -- JohnP
Post by: Buzzhead on July 16, 2006, 10:02:20 PM
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Saws are made to cut ANYTHING including 10 pins
Post by: Hex017 on July 16, 2006, 10:16:10 PM
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-If you're not willing to change, you're not willing to improve.
-Life is like a coin, you can spend it any way you want, but you can only spend it once.
-90 percent of the game is half mental
-Yogi Berra
Post by: JohnP on July 17, 2006, 10:39:12 AM
Post by: janderson on July 17, 2006, 04:35:29 PM
If you are thinking about going to more forward pitch on your thumb (reasons for doing this are outside the scope of this discussion) a shorter "relaxed" span is often needed to release the ball properly.
Stretched versus relaxed span is often a matter of simple preference. I've met top-notch bowlers who have used a relaxed span and top-notch bowlers that have used a stretched span.
25 years ago when lifting/hitting up on the ball to create entry angle, I preferred a stretched span because it created helped create more tension on the fingertips right off the bat and helped the fingers stay in the ball a bit longer to create a gentle loft.
Over the past few years I've changed to the cup-and-collapse style release and a relaxed span. I feel the relaxed span allows me to get out of the ball more cleanly at the release point and allows my hand to be relaxed through the entire shot.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Edited on 7/17/2006 4:31 PM
Post by: leftehh- LG on July 18, 2006, 03:39:21 AM
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Andy "LG" Reynoso
"Bowl to win"
Post by: YeahHossNV on July 18, 2006, 04:26:23 AM
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"Viva la Nacion De Brunswick"
Post by: CoachJim on July 18, 2006, 04:48:41 AM
Post by: Pinbuster on July 18, 2006, 07:29:10 AM
JohnP, CoachJim both described how to measure relaxed versus stretched. Of course there are a variety of extremes.
A relaxed span is much easier on the hand. I have never seen an injury as a result of using a relaxed span but I have seen hundreds from using stretched spans.
Almost every professional bowler uses a relaxed span and this has been true for years. They simply cannot afford the wear and tear on the hand that comes from using a stretched span.
The relaxed fit also allows you to use a much more relaxed arm swing and less hit that is needed in the modern game.
And finally I believe the grip gives more options in your release.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 18, 2006, 08:57:47 AM
Looks it to me.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Edited on 9/18/2006 8:51 AM
Post by: burly on September 18, 2006, 01:21:01 PM
a streched grip causes a lost in revolutions
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###############################################
check my profile for my stats
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 18, 2006, 01:29:38 PM
Me say full but not to the standard above...
I say it lloks like fingers are stretched but last joint is in the middle of the hole.
To front edge is VERY stretched and could hurt!
REgards,
Luckylefty.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Strapper_Squared on September 18, 2006, 01:39:09 PM
.S^2
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I'm a great quitter. It's one of the few things I do well. I come from a long line of quitters. My father was a quitter, my grandfather was a quitter... I was raised to give up.
- George, in "The Old Man"
Post by: Ragnar on September 18, 2006, 01:43:48 PM
quote:
Not to start anything, ...
You have just broken the BS meter.
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"I do desire that we may be better strangers." Willie the Shake, As You Like it(III,ii)
http://ystig.com/spaghetti.jpg
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 18, 2006, 05:07:33 PM
I believe there are still some very full fingertip spans on tour..
I think Walter Ray, PDW...TJ...I'm not sure Patrick Allen...
Anyone else?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: fritorayyy on September 18, 2006, 05:58:22 PM
Post by: leftehh- LG on September 18, 2006, 06:02:12 PM
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Bowl to Win!
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 18, 2006, 06:59:38 PM
Ummm Basketball?
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Slopsurprise on September 18, 2006, 07:09:09 PM
quote:
I recently switched from stretched to relaxed and can still get as many if not more revs on the ball as before with less wear and tear on my hand and fingers. I did this at the start of the summer and ended up 10 pins higher than my last book avg. Think of it this way, which ball could you control better, a softball ( relaxed) or a basketball ( stretched) .
I did the exact samething this summer and my results are the same! Relaxed span is the way to go!
Post by: leftehh- LG on September 18, 2006, 07:20:30 PM
quote:quote:
I recently switched from stretched to relaxed and can still get as many if not more revs on the ball as before with less wear and tear on my hand and fingers. I did this at the start of the summer and ended up 10 pins higher than my last book avg. Think of it this way, which ball could you control better, a softball ( relaxed) or a basketball ( stretched) .
I did the exact samething this summer and my results are the same! Relaxed span is the way to go!
And you'll longer in the long run too!
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Bowl to Win!
Post by: Hex017 on September 18, 2006, 07:32:06 PM
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-If you're not willing to change, you're not willing to improve.
-Life is like a coin, you can spend it any way you want, but you can only spend it once.
-90 percent of the game is half mental
-Yogi Berra
Post by: punkrawk77 on September 18, 2006, 09:26:32 PM
My original bowling balls have relaxed span definetly. According to one driller he thought I must knuckle the ball as a result of the shorter span. I don't knuckle at all.
I went with there span recommendation on my "The One" and now I feel to outstretched. I also feel like I am gripping the ball now and it has cut down on my rev rate noticeably. I feel slightly more strain when too. I also get a big red mark on my thumb now that I never had before.
I think the relaxed span is better for me. I don't know if it matters but I have short fingers. I think that might be another reason I prefer the relaxed span.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 19, 2006, 07:21:50 AM
I believe they are all 3...full fingertip...not relaxed at all.
Anyone know?
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I believe it is important to know there are really at least 3 variations.
1)relaxed 2) full fingertip...puts last joint in middle of hole or slightly over 3)stretched...as John P says...puts last joint over lip of hole(ouch...I can't imagine that!)
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: charlest on September 19, 2006, 08:19:11 AM
quote:
but seriously...folks...does anyone say that Walter Ray has a RELAXED span?
...
I think Walter Ray, PDW...TJ...I'm not sure Patrick Allen...
Anyone else?
REgards,
Luckylefty
Based on what?
Until you examine his hand and see how it fits in his ball, how can you say one way or the other? Or maybe you have examined him up close?
I've seen little guys who bowl daily have their hands and bones stretched out quite a bit. Bigger guys like Walter Ray can have well over 5" spans and still not be a stretched.
"full" fingertip does not mean stretched. Perhaps we should define out terms here ....
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Pinbuster on September 19, 2006, 08:54:59 AM
Thumb pitch is 0 rev 3/16 right.
Like Charlest said without having their hand there you can't tell.
I would think for his height it would be a fairly relax grip.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 19, 2006, 08:58:59 AM
1 2 and 3.
As to Walter Ray's TommY Jones and PDW...to my eye on tv they look
"Full fingertip...ie number 2 not stretched(no3)".
I have no idea if I am right...
Anyone know?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 19, 2006, 10:29:33 AM
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Pinbuster on September 19, 2006, 11:29:15 AM
The odds of anyone in the world measuring all of these people would be phenomenal. So no one is going to be able to tell you how extended their spans are.
I have personally seen measured about 6 different guys who either on tour or have toured.
Rick Steelsmith, Justin Hromek, Chris Barnes, Lonnie Waliczek, and Pat Healey among them.
All of them used relaxed finger tip grips. In fact the only person I know of that toured much and had any success with a stretched span was David Ozio. Almost all the touring players will go to relaxed finger tip spans just for comfort after they have been out there for a while.
This may not be as prevalent today since they don’t bowl as many games as they used to. But unless you have an exceptional flexible hand stretched spans will physicall hurt you eventually if you bowl a lot.
There are only a couple of users on this board that may have the knowledge, Magic Carpet who has coached several of the touring pros and Jeff Carter who is touring.
Post by: charlest on September 19, 2006, 01:48:14 PM
If walter's span is only 4 3/4 at his height of 6'2" or more, then that must be a very relaxed grip. Mine at only 6' is 4 3/4" with 0 thumb pitch and 1/4" back pitch for the fingers, and I'd consider mine relaxed.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Pinbuster on September 19, 2006, 01:51:53 PM
I'm 6 foot but my span is only 4 3/8 4 3/8 for a relaxed finger tip grip.
Everybody's different.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 19, 2006, 01:54:24 PM
Full fingertip meaning last joint when stretched is to middle of hole or very slightly over. Relaxed meaning when stretched the joint is near the back of the hole! Stretched defined above.
I perceive the 3 mentioned players...Walter Ray, PDW and Tommy Jones as being full fingertip from my perception of their hand in the ball...I think they are pretty good bowlers too!. If I remember right Pete Weber from stats on this website is 4 3/4...not a big guy!
Anyone know?...we have about 5 to 6 that are known as above...this is just 3.
I know I can find out Tommy Jones...but PDW = full? Walter - full?
Someone knows...I can only guess...and I guess FULL!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Ragnar on September 19, 2006, 01:55:00 PM
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"I do desire that we may be better strangers." Willie the Shake, As You Like it(III,ii)
http://ystig.com/spaghetti.jpg
Post by: Draxond300 on September 19, 2006, 02:04:48 PM
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"For the money, for the glory, for the fun. Mostly for the money."
-Smokey and the Bandit
Post by: CoachJim on September 19, 2006, 02:53:48 PM
quote:
I perceive the 3 mentioned players...Walter Ray, PDW and Tommy Jones as being full fingertip from my perception of their hand in the ball...I think they are pretty good bowlers too!. If I remember right Pete Weber from stats on this website is 4 3/4...not a big guy!
Anyone know?...we have about 5 to 6 that are known as above...this is just 3.
I know I can find out Tommy Jones...but PDW = full? Walter - full?
Having watched Tommy Jones on TV, he puts his thumb in the ball first, then his fingers. This would be impossible to do as easilly as he does it with a full or stretched span.
I do agree that PDW is stretched, and has to wear a glove because of all the wear and tear on his hand. It is hard to tell about WRW from watching tv, but I'm gessing relaxed.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 20, 2006, 04:08:39 AM
For Pete...I'm not convinced his hand is that beat up from the span or even beat up ...at all...I believe but don't know...that he came up with that glove idea for no wear!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: jchosea on September 20, 2006, 05:30:07 AM
Post by: SKC on September 20, 2006, 06:05:14 AM
When i was a youth, i used to insert my fingers the exact same way as Tommy Jones does.. Thumb in first with a slight angle of about 45-60 degrees, then twist the hand over towards the holes and then grip the fingertips.. This gave me a feel of a stretched span, when in fact it wasn't.. That was the time when i started to grow really fast.. I couldn't afford having my grip changed all the time, so i kinda figured out a way to keep that stretched feel..
But then again, TJ would probably have figured out a way to get that relaxed or stretched feel he's looking for by now, with all those reps and whatnot..
Untill last year i had a stretched span, and started to feel pain in my finger joints.. I have now gone more relaxed, and no more pain...
I now have it all pretty much figured out, except for the lateral pitches in my thumb.. I'm currently testing with 1/8 to the right..
I'm 5'10'.. And my span is 4'1/2.. Everybody's different..
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Tough times don't last, tough people do...
Aggression is an attitude, not an emotion...
Post by: CoachJim on September 20, 2006, 11:15:19 AM
quote:
For Pete...I'm not convinced his hand is that beat up from the span or even beat up ...at all...I believe but don't know...that he came up with that glove idea for no wear!
They talk about the reason for the glove every time PDW bowls. Before the glove his skin would stretch and crack. I used to have the same problem before I switched to a relaxed grip. I switched when Mo Pinnel wrote for BTM and someone asked what to do about that very problem, Mo described the relaxed grip and I have been using it for about 10 years now.
What are you trying to prove anyway?
The PBA Hall of fame is full of people who used both types of grips, I don't believe anyone is saying you can't be successful using either type of grip, but if you are tired of needless hand pain I would switch to the relaxed grip.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 20, 2006, 02:20:22 PM
Especially of the top guys...stretched...no...full fingertip I think more than we realize.
I believe the super relaxed span is overated and has it's own sets of problems.
I have gone back to full and been pleased with the change back...
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS JJWeb and I have been taking lessons from a guy who believes in FULL...not stretched...and I believe he and I are very pleased with our results....
I put a complete post on it....over in drilling a while back...
I believe advantages are stretching the ball to one's break point easier...just one...
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: FBM357 on September 20, 2006, 02:39:01 PM
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Proud member of the Track Revolution - EMERITUS & Hitman
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results!"
Post by: NappyCuts on September 20, 2006, 02:44:22 PM
Post by: CoachJim on September 21, 2006, 05:15:53 PM
quote:
I've used a slightly stretched span for years and felt really comfortable with it as it felt as though my thumb was "locked" in position thus eliminating the 'thought/feel' of gripping the ball. Now I'm using a shorter/relaxed grip and to be honest, the feel of knuckling/gripping the ball has become a problem. Apparently more emphasis is placed upon a much tighter thumb fit. Only callus (small) I developed was at the base of the palm side of my thumb which a bevel fixed (refering to the slightly stretched span). Now, I find myself adjusting with tape and other stuff to make a snug fit and having to worry about clearing as well. I'm going back to my slightly stretched span. felt better, and the release was more consistent
Did you increase the forward pitch in the thumb? More forward pitch eliminates the need to squeeze. I am at 1/2" forward pitch in my thumb.
Post by: CoachJim on September 21, 2006, 05:23:35 PM
quote:
Especially of the top guys...stretched...no...full fingertip I think more than we realize
LL, lets make sure we are talking about the same things, do me a favor and describe the difference between the fitting of a relaxed, full and stretched grip, ie where the leading edge of the finger holes hits the fingers when they are laid across the holes with the thumb in the ball.
I just want to make sure we are all talking about the same grip measurements and not just calling them by different names.
To me a stretched grip has the edge of the finger hole hitting at the crease of the first knuckle, a relaxed grip has the holes half way between the first and second knuckle, not sure what a full grip is I am guessing somewhere in between.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 22, 2006, 09:22:08 AM
I listed it above...
Your relaxed is my full. My definition of relaxed is last joint almost to back of hole.
1)Stretched...last joint to front of hole when fingers stretched
2)Full...last joint when fingers stretched to middle of hole
3)Relaxed...last joint when fingers stretched near back of hole
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Brickguy221 on September 22, 2006, 12:17:29 PM
Full?
Relaxed?
Stretched?
I know that pitches plays a part here also, but does one grip cause a bowler to maybe squeeze the ball a bit more than another?
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Brick
Post by: CoachJim on September 22, 2006, 04:53:34 PM
I have heard of Mo Pinnel drilling peoples grips with your version of a relaxed grip, I haven't seen anyone use that kind of grip before, or know what is involved with fitting it. I have heard of people having release and wrist problems with spans this short that weren't fitted properly (pitches etc).
I had to argue with my ball driller to get him to drill my grip at a "Full Grip", now he drills most everyone's grip that way. One local proshop drills them beyond stretched and it is a pain to try to coach someone with a grip like that so I usually send them to my ball driller to get their equipment fitted properly before we start lessons.
So back to the arguement about relaxed vs. stretched, I would bet that 90% of the pros use what you are calling a "Full" fingertip grip, thus I am agreeing with you.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 22, 2006, 05:08:38 PM
As I stated...I see a lot of our locals with more relaxed.
I acknowledge possibly more revs from slightly more relaxed...but one seems to lose other qualities of our "full" style grip...that of stetching the ball to thebreakpoint!
I believe another important quality of a good grip!
Similar in way to a golf grip! A thin grip (in relation to a persons hand)encourages lots of active hand action. A grip than is larger than standard leads to a less handsy swing and maybe a fade. (I believe analgous to a stretched span in bowling!
Somewhere in the middle in golf works for most in golf...I believe similar in bowling. What I call full...and you call relaxed are a version somewhere in between stretched and relaxed and work for most. Probably also combine the best characteristics of both.
The best practical(not theoretical) drillers I know.(ie lots of their bowlers seem to throw well.) Seem to stretch the hand while in the thumb hole...and take 5/16 about off the length to the last joint in order to determine where the front lip of the hole is going to be! This general rule seems to work for a lot of people!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: CoachJim on September 22, 2006, 10:25:49 PM
The modern theory of ball fitting is that it is easier to grip a baseball than a basket ball, with that being said it is easier to grip a ball with a shorter span and forward pitch in the thumb than stretching it and using reverse. Try it on a fitting ball in your proshop and see for yourself.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 22, 2006, 10:33:26 PM
Your relaxed probably is slightly less than that instead of equaling...my full.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: CoachJim on September 23, 2006, 06:17:27 AM
quote:
Your relaxed probably is slightly less than that instead of equaling...my full.
That is correct, my relaxed is at or slightly less than center between the first and second knuckle.
I believe the 5/16 measurement stems from how to measure a conventional grip, old school ball drillers just used the same distance, but subtracted it from the first joint for a fingertip and from the second joint for a conventional grip.
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 26, 2006, 09:26:27 AM
Based on the way the fingers layed very flat on the ball and Carolyn's thumb postition as detailed by Track 300900 above...good point by the way.
While the majority of amateurs are going to relaxed fingertip it still seems quite a few top pros are still...somewhat full fingertip... as described above.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: CPA on September 27, 2006, 09:54:17 PM