Do you really think bowling on 1 lane wouldn't be a bigger advantage for better teams?

I think he's saying bowling on 2 lanes is a bigger advantage for "teams" of 10 instead of teams of 5.  Here are my thoughts: if you put 5 guys on one lane that want to work together and have the ability to do so (2 different things), I think the results would be even better for them.  The more variables you take away (in this case less bowlers and less lanes), the less likely it is for something to go away from plan. 

I really think we need to get away from the word fair.  Fair is a perspective.  No matter what you do, it's going to benefit some group of people more than another group of people.  Recently a lot has been done to benefit that upper level (and rightfully so).  I think it's time to look at it and see if there's something we can do to benefit the "average" bowler in some way.

No problem at all with using teamwork to open up a shot.  It is the tools they get to use that troubles me. 

Quote from: Armourboy on July 31, 2013, 06:26:42 AM

The only issue I have with it is if its a 5 man team, you bringing another 5 man team to bowl with is just a bit odd. At that point its not really a 5 man team event, but rather a 10 man team event.

Using your football reference, it would be like Green Bay bringing along Detroit to play against San Francisco in the Super Bowl. While it may not be against the rules in bowling, there definitely is something a bit odd about it.

Now, I have zero issue with all 5 people working together to make the lanes more open, thats part of the game in my eyes. However, if its a 5 man team event, your team you are bowling with should be random, not 5 other buddies you hand selected because then its not a 5 man event but a 10 man event ( for some but not for others)

Edit: I would also like to add that bowling isn't just a team sport, but also an individual one. Unlike Football, Basketball, Soccer, etc. you aren't playing those sports without your team mates. I think with bowling lots of people get caught up on the individual mindset ( aka PBA style)

But also keep in mind this.. it may seem like a 10-person team, but it is still a competition. Just because it may be a 10-person team doesn't always mean that the #2 team is trying to help the #1 team score better. You could end up with both teams helping each other out that they both take 1st and 2nd in Team.

Nothing is stopping them from helping each other out to bowl their best, as well as keep the competition between the two going. In short, competition doesn't always have to be malicious or with selfish intent.

BL.

You know if this happens and its randomly selected 5 man pairings I don't have near as much problem with it.

Here is the thing about fairness, the odds of everything being 100% fair is slim to none, but the goal of whoever is putting it on is to make it be or at least look as fair as it can be.

The USBC can't control certain things, the amount of skill, the amount of practice, etc. but what they can control is the format. The goal should be to make the format as fair as they can, with everyone starting on as close to the same conditions as they can. Basically in this case you can solve that problem by making it a 5 man event ( as advertised) and the team you are paired with is randomly selected. Some years you might get lucky and actually get a friend team as your pairing, others it may be a group of random 5 players, but at least at that point its random luck and makes the USBC look better.

Right now from the outside things smell a little fishy, and the USBC smells fishy too because of it. The goal of the USBC should be to keep as much of the smell out as they can, but right now it really looks like they are rolling in stink.

Keep in mind this is a view from someone that has never been nor will ever go, I'm probably as unbiased as you are gonna get. The only reason I even remotely care is because its an event run by the main sanctioning body of all of bowling in the US, and if they are running an event in a questionable manner, it makes me wonder what else they are doing that is questionable.

As far as the equipment being used, thats up to the USBC to decide. As long as every single individual has reasonable access to the same equipment ( in this case purchasable off the rack at some point) then I could care less what is being used. If the USBC decides that they only want to allow a certain type of ball to be used, as long as they enforce it equally then thats fine.

I guess I just don't understand the argument that the changes benefit the upper level bowlers.  The changes were made so everyone is starting on equal grounds. 

The key is to make the lanes difficult enough so the scores equate to the skill level of the player, yet not make them so difficult that luck becomes a factor.  The only thing you could do to benefit the average bowlers is to make the conditions easier to artificially inflate the scores.

If you come up with a magic condition that doesn't breakdown the best bowlers will still win.

Well really that should be the goal, to determine who is the best bowler, or teams in this case. The goal shouldn't be about making Billy Bob feel better about himself. The problem right now though is that you basically have some variation in the format ( some bowling with what is a true 5 man team, and yet others bowling with what is essentially a 10 man team) and people are arguing it gives them an advantage.

Now here is the thing, I don't know if it gives them an advantage or not ( according to what everyone has been saying it appears it does marginally) but it at least looks like the USBC is allowing some to have an advantage over others. In the long run it may not matter, because the best bowlers are the ones doing it anyways. However, it taints the USBC and the event, and that is why you hear so much crying about it.

Companion teams have been bowling together for as long as...well, probably ever.  This isn't something new.

You'd have more uproar from the guys who go to Nationals on vacation not being able to bowl together with their whole group after doing so for the 25 years they've gone together than you would from the guys you think this is advantageous to.

Companion teams have been bowling together for as long as...well, probably ever.  This isn't something new.

You'd have more uproar from the guys who go to Nationals on vacation not being able to bowl together with their whole group after doing so for the 25 years they've gone together than you would from the guys you think this is advantageous to.

The " its always been that way" line doesn't hold water with me. So you've had a format problem for 25 years that you've allowed to continue, that sounds worse to me.

The above problem is easily solvable, create a 10 man event then. If it was 5 man team competition, they should of never been allowed to bowl with the same 10 people year after year to begin with, unless it was a 10 man event.

I'm not real sure why that is such a hard concept to grasp.

Quite frankly I think its BS that the PBA guys are in a different division. Why? Because the goal of the USBC Open should be about finding out who the best bowlers are in the game and recognize them. Whether that be the best individual, double, 5 man team, 10 man team, 100 man team, whatever.

" Well then the best bowlers would always win ",  duh? Last I checked the PBA guys were still members of the USBC and were still bowlers.

So much about the way things are done just baffles me, its no wonder the game of bowling has so many issues in the US 

I can only be pc for so long and then I have to tell it like it is.

I see this topic still won't die...i've never seen a dead horse beaten more.
 
Here are some things most of you are forgetting:
1) Random draw - Sure this may take away a perceived advantage from the top teams. But it will also cause a severe decline in entries. You tell the average bowler, who goes out here trying to do their best, that now that can't bowl with their friends, they aren't coming back. So institute this if you want, and say goodbye to the tournament as it will be dead in less than 5 years. Now things will really be "fair", no one gets to bowl.
 
2) No good bowlers in the area - I have said this, and others have as well, that this is a BS excuse. I bowl with people who live in Canada, live in Texas and live in Pennsylvania. If you are a good bowler, you can get picked up by a top team no matter where you or they live.  A lot of the top teams have bowlers from different areas. Saying this is a limitation is a cop-out and total BS.
 
3) 5 vs 10 person team - This is still a 5 person team event. You people act like the second 5 guys come along just to support the "A" team and don't try at all. That can't be further from the truth. The companion teams are trying their best. In a perfect world they hope the two teams finsih first and second. There are more than a few occassions where the "B" team has outscored the "A" team. How do you explain that with your logic? Each team is trying to do their best, each team is trying to score the highest they can. It's not like the "B" team is throwing charcoal up 3-5 every shot, picking 3 off the right just to dry up the lanes for the "A" team. But that is how you people are portraying it. If you go to a random draw, what's stops a team from going to the team they are paired with and say...."Hey, play this line and you will score better cause we are playing there too"? Or are you going to outlaw talking in your scenarios too?
 
4) One lane - Another way to kill the tournament. Bowling on one lane will only do one thing, further separate the top teams from the rest of the pack. You are taking away multiple things that potentially add difficulty to the sport. A pair of lanes don't always play the same due to a number of factors, this goes way. A pair of lanes don't always break down the same due to numerous factors, this goes away. I can go on and on. You complain about 10 guys working together, yet you want to make it even easier for a team to work together by removing difficulty. How does this make sense in anyone's mind?
 
Bottom-line is people really need to grow up. People need to realize they aren't as good as their THS average says. Once they do that, all of this will go away.