BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: bowlallthetime on July 30, 2013, 11:38:01 PM
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Why are some people against a group of 10 people working together to open up a lane? It just doesn't make sense to me. Nationals is a team event. You should work together as a team, just like any other sport.
In the NFL, O-linemen work together to open up holes to make it EASIER for Adrian Peterson to gain as many yards as possible.
In the NBA players set screens to get a teammate open to make it EASIER for a teammate to make a shot.
So why is it wrong in bowling for members of a team to play a certain part of the lane to make it EASIER for fellow teammates to knock down the most pins possible?
We don't hear fans of the NFL say "why is the o-line giving AP such a huge hole to run through? They should just lay down and make him do all the work by himself.."
Then why in bowling are some so against teamwork? No one is stopping you and your team from doing the exact same thing.
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The issue is guys are dead set on being able to the league line or are so set on playing the lanes their way that they fail to see the obvious advantages in opening a lane up.
The guys complaining are upset that they can't score like the guys that are opening up with a concerted team effort. They don't understand probably don't want to understand how and why the SPORT works the way it works.
Personally hearing someone say" I don't want to have to work with people" makes me think that person is a horrible teammate, it makes me ask why not? Look at the guys that scoring Look at the teams that are winning they are opening the lane up and doing well making the pattern look easy. Guys that don't make the lane look impossible. Not only that but they are screwing the nine other guys on the lane, why would anyone want to do that? Screw everyone else? Sounds like a great guy.
This is a group of bowlers saying i am to stubborn to change even though the whole premise of the game is adjustments to give your team (in a team event) the best chance to score, not to give yourself the best chance to score
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one word-brackets
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The only issue I have with it is if its a 5 man team, you bringing another 5 man team to bowl with is just a bit odd. At that point its not really a 5 man team event, but rather a 10 man team event.
Using your football reference, it would be like Green Bay bringing along Detroit to play against San Francisco in the Super Bowl. While it may not be against the rules in bowling, there definitely is something a bit odd about it.
Now, I have zero issue with all 5 people working together to make the lanes more open, thats part of the game in my eyes. However, if its a 5 man team event, your team you are bowling with should be random, not 5 other buddies you hand selected because then its not a 5 man event but a 10 man event ( for some but not for others)
Edit: I would also like to add that bowling isn't just a team sport, but also an individual one. Unlike Football, Basketball, Soccer, etc. you aren't playing those sports without your team mates. I think with bowling lots of people get caught up on the individual mindset ( aka PBA style)
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If you want to limit all the bitching about team event...
How about this idea. At the team event, since it is "team" bowling, no individual brackets? Only team brackets.
After all, it's about the team and winning the eagle...right?
And let's see how quickly all the entries drop like flies except for the true eagle competitors.
And in the doubles events - doubles brackets. You and your partner. No singles brackets except in singles.
Of course this won't fly because there are great bowlers with backers or their own money that use this tournament as a easy way to make profit. And please don't jump on me and say you don't. We all know there are exceptions.
But even Riggs and company, who I will 100% agree, are focused on winning eagles, still pool they money and enter brackets.
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The people that run brackets make way too much money to ever change things now. I'm just saying you can't get 10 guys to work together unless there is a 10 way split among your group.
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The simple solution would be to make it ten men teams instead of five. There is no way to compete as a team if all ten guys do not work together.
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Or you could just bowl on one lane. You still get to bowl with your companion team, but you just get what you and your 4 team mates can carve.
Now you are back to true 5 member teams and not penalizing teams that cannot find a companion team due to being from small towns etc.
Just throwing out ideas.
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I like that we're now thinking outside the box. This is good.
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Please, stop trying to artificially make things "fair".
Sorry if you can't find 4-9 other guys that are really good and want to cooperate. Heck, I have never been able to get enough bowlers interested in going to nationals at the same time to even get to go in the first place.
The one year we actually got two teams together to go, I got laid off from my job and couldn't go myself.
And, just because we were going does NOT mean that we thought we could win, only that we would get to compete.
Life isn't fair, and neither is bowling. Stop trying to make it so.
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I'm game for the one team one lane. It's called evolution and our game is way... I repeat... WAY BEHIND THE TIMES. Otherwise, you need a 10-person award. Simple as that.
Essentially, bowlers have arrived at a place in bowling where it's a relative known and recognized fact that not only does lane maintenance by bowlers have a direct effect on score ability (See Singles & Doubles going to fresh oil for all squads), but one team can completely derail another team on the same pair of lanes. And that's not fair. And I think the whole point is to create a fair playing field. And I wouldn't classify this as artificial fairness. It's pretty much been scientifically documented at this point that there is good traffic and bad traffic on lane patterns and your ability to score can be increased or decreased. And yes, it is hard to get 10 GOOD bowlers together. But than, how do you define good? I may have a different set of qualifiers.
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The only issue I have with it is if its a 5 man team, you bringing another 5 man team to bowl with is just a bit odd. At that point its not really a 5 man team event, but rather a 10 man team event.
Using your football reference, it would be like Green Bay bringing along Detroit to play against San Francisco in the Super Bowl. While it may not be against the rules in bowling, there definitely is something a bit odd about it.
Now, I have zero issue with all 5 people working together to make the lanes more open, thats part of the game in my eyes. However, if its a 5 man team event, your team you are bowling with should be random, not 5 other buddies you hand selected because then its not a 5 man event but a 10 man event ( for some but not for others)
Edit: I would also like to add that bowling isn't just a team sport, but also an individual one. Unlike Football, Basketball, Soccer, etc. you aren't playing those sports without your team mates. I think with bowling lots of people get caught up on the individual mindset ( aka PBA style)
But also keep in mind this.. it may seem like a 10-person team, but it is still a competition. Just because it may be a 10-person team doesn't always mean that the #2 team is trying to help the #1 team score better. You could end up with both teams helping each other out that they both take 1st and 2nd in Team.
Nothing is stopping them from helping each other out to bowl their best, as well as keep the competition between the two going. In short, competition doesn't always have to be malicious or with selfish intent.
BL.
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Team Event is defined as 5 bowlers per entry.
Well, let's do random draw for lanes? Response: no, we (random stud team) might get stuck with shim wreckers. Not fair We want to bowl with our companion team who can help us score better.
Let's bowl on one lane? Response: No, tradition is 2 lanes (translation - we want to keep our advantage. We figured out a loophole and now you want to close it)
What about small town bowlers who may only have 5 talented bowlers? Response:
Sorry, if you wanted it bad enough, you'd move. Life isn't fair and neither is bowling.
And you wonder why USBC can't accomplish anything????
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Team Event is defined as 5 bowlers per entry.
Well, let's do random draw for lanes? Response: no, we (random stud team) might get stuck with shim wreckers. Not fair We want to bowl with our companion team who can help us score better.
Let's bowl on one lane? Response: No, tradition is 2 lanes (translation - we want to keep our advantage. We figured out a loophole and now you want to close it)
What about small town bowlers who may only have 5 talented bowlers? Response:
Sorry, if you wanted it bad enough, you'd move. Life isn't fair and neither is bowling.
And you wonder why USBC can't accomplish anything????
The problem is USBC does its pulse check way too close to the top of the food chain. I think the thought process is "well, if the really good bowlers want it, it must be good for bowling" or something like that. Many of the top level bowlers are completely out of touch with what happens in a regular league (other than assuming everyone is a sandbagger if they manage to bowl well in a tournament) because they don't bowl in those leagues and they don't associate with people that bowl in those leagues.
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Do you really think bowling on 1 lane wouldn't be a bigger advantage for better teams?
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Do you really think bowling on 1 lane wouldn't be a bigger advantage for better teams?
I think he's saying bowling on 2 lanes is a bigger advantage for "teams" of 10 instead of teams of 5. Here are my thoughts: if you put 5 guys on one lane that want to work together and have the ability to do so (2 different things), I think the results would be even better for them. The more variables you take away (in this case less bowlers and less lanes), the less likely it is for something to go away from plan.
I really think we need to get away from the word fair. Fair is a perspective. No matter what you do, it's going to benefit some group of people more than another group of people. Recently a lot has been done to benefit that upper level (and rightfully so). I think it's time to look at it and see if there's something we can do to benefit the "average" bowler in some way.
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Correct, not every great group of 5 bowlers can find another group of 5 bowlers due to living in small towns or other issues.
Just puts every team on equal footing which was the argument for fresh oil in minors.
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No problem at all with using teamwork to open up a shot. It is the tools they get to use that troubles me.
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I guess I just don't understand the argument that the changes benefit the upper level bowlers. The changes were made so everyone is starting on equal grounds.
The key is to make the lanes difficult enough so the scores equate to the skill level of the player, yet not make them so difficult that luck becomes a factor. The only thing you could do to benefit the average bowlers is to make the conditions easier to artificially inflate the scores.
If you come up with a magic condition that doesn't breakdown the best bowlers will still win.
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The only issue I have with it is if its a 5 man team, you bringing another 5 man team to bowl with is just a bit odd. At that point its not really a 5 man team event, but rather a 10 man team event.
Using your football reference, it would be like Green Bay bringing along Detroit to play against San Francisco in the Super Bowl. While it may not be against the rules in bowling, there definitely is something a bit odd about it.
Now, I have zero issue with all 5 people working together to make the lanes more open, thats part of the game in my eyes. However, if its a 5 man team event, your team you are bowling with should be random, not 5 other buddies you hand selected because then its not a 5 man event but a 10 man event ( for some but not for others)
Edit: I would also like to add that bowling isn't just a team sport, but also an individual one. Unlike Football, Basketball, Soccer, etc. you aren't playing those sports without your team mates. I think with bowling lots of people get caught up on the individual mindset ( aka PBA style)
But also keep in mind this.. it may seem like a 10-person team, but it is still a competition. Just because it may be a 10-person team doesn't always mean that the #2 team is trying to help the #1 team score better. You could end up with both teams helping each other out that they both take 1st and 2nd in Team.
Nothing is stopping them from helping each other out to bowl their best, as well as keep the competition between the two going. In short, competition doesn't always have to be malicious or with selfish intent.
BL.
You know if this happens and its randomly selected 5 man pairings I don't have near as much problem with it.
Here is the thing about fairness, the odds of everything being 100% fair is slim to none, but the goal of whoever is putting it on is to make it be or at least look as fair as it can be.
The USBC can't control certain things, the amount of skill, the amount of practice, etc. but what they can control is the format. The goal should be to make the format as fair as they can, with everyone starting on as close to the same conditions as they can. Basically in this case you can solve that problem by making it a 5 man event ( as advertised) and the team you are paired with is randomly selected. Some years you might get lucky and actually get a friend team as your pairing, others it may be a group of random 5 players, but at least at that point its random luck and makes the USBC look better.
Right now from the outside things smell a little fishy, and the USBC smells fishy too because of it. The goal of the USBC should be to keep as much of the smell out as they can, but right now it really looks like they are rolling in stink.
Keep in mind this is a view from someone that has never been nor will ever go, I'm probably as unbiased as you are gonna get. The only reason I even remotely care is because its an event run by the main sanctioning body of all of bowling in the US, and if they are running an event in a questionable manner, it makes me wonder what else they are doing that is questionable.
As far as the equipment being used, thats up to the USBC to decide. As long as every single individual has reasonable access to the same equipment ( in this case purchasable off the rack at some point) then I could care less what is being used. If the USBC decides that they only want to allow a certain type of ball to be used, as long as they enforce it equally then thats fine.
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I guess I just don't understand the argument that the changes benefit the upper level bowlers. The changes were made so everyone is starting on equal grounds.
People keep getting caught up on win. It's not about winning. The average bowler isn't beating the Riggs of the world unless they Nancy Kerrigan them. Even then, I'd take Riggs if there was betting on it.
How do I explain this? The oil change put the better bowlers all on the same playing field. There is no denying that. What it also did (and maybe rightfully so) is separate them further from the average bowler because the average bowler doesn't have the ability to break down the lanes properly (which we all know). So yes, when you're looking at better bowler vs better bowler, it's equal. When you're looking at average bowler vs average bowler, it's relatively equal. When you're looking at better bowler that managed to hook up with other better bowlers that can break down the lane vs better bowler that wasn't as fortunate, well, that's not so equal.
It's even more pronounced in brackets, because you may be losing to someone you actually bowled better than (hitting mark, release, speed, etc) but didn't have the luxury of team work. Single and Doubles should be about your performance, not about the performance of the people you came with. I can't think of a rational argument that says otherwise.
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I guess I just don't understand the argument that the changes benefit the upper level bowlers. The changes were made so everyone is starting on equal grounds.
The key is to make the lanes difficult enough so the scores equate to the skill level of the player, yet not make them so difficult that luck becomes a factor. The only thing you could do to benefit the average bowlers is to make the conditions easier to artificially inflate the scores.
If you come up with a magic condition that doesn't breakdown the best bowlers will still win.
Well really that should be the goal, to determine who is the best bowler, or teams in this case. The goal shouldn't be about making Billy Bob feel better about himself. The problem right now though is that you basically have some variation in the format ( some bowling with what is a true 5 man team, and yet others bowling with what is essentially a 10 man team) and people are arguing it gives them an advantage.
Now here is the thing, I don't know if it gives them an advantage or not ( according to what everyone has been saying it appears it does marginally) but it at least looks like the USBC is allowing some to have an advantage over others. In the long run it may not matter, because the best bowlers are the ones doing it anyways. However, it taints the USBC and the event, and that is why you hear so much crying about it.
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It's never going to be perfect. At least now you are only at the mercy of the people you bowl with. You used to be at the mercy of the people you bowl with and the people on the squad(s) before you.
Bracket are gambling. Some of it is just luck of the draw. Some bowlers just throw more money at it to try to even out some of the luck of the draw.
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Companion teams have been bowling together for as long as...well, probably ever. This isn't something new.
You'd have more uproar from the guys who go to Nationals on vacation not being able to bowl together with their whole group after doing so for the 25 years they've gone together than you would from the guys you think this is advantageous to.
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The guys that complain about the 5 vs. 10 are the guys on marginal teams that think if they had a good companion team they would be able to blow the lanes open like league and shoot 3500. The reality is the companion team that go with the super star teams are better than these marginal teams.
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Companion teams have been bowling together for as long as...well, probably ever. This isn't something new.
You'd have more uproar from the guys who go to Nationals on vacation not being able to bowl together with their whole group after doing so for the 25 years they've gone together than you would from the guys you think this is advantageous to.
The " its always been that way" line doesn't hold water with me. So you've had a format problem for 25 years that you've allowed to continue, that sounds worse to me.
The above problem is easily solvable, create a 10 man event then. If it was 5 man team competition, they should of never been allowed to bowl with the same 10 people year after year to begin with, unless it was a 10 man event.
I'm not real sure why that is such a hard concept to grasp.
Quite frankly I think its BS that the PBA guys are in a different division. Why? Because the goal of the USBC Open should be about finding out who the best bowlers are in the game and recognize them. Whether that be the best individual, double, 5 man team, 10 man team, 100 man team, whatever.
" Well then the best bowlers would always win ", duh? Last I checked the PBA guys were still members of the USBC and were still bowlers.
So much about the way things are done just baffles me, its no wonder the game of bowling has so many issues in the US :-\
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The guys that complain about the 5 vs. 10 are the guys on marginal teams that think if they had a good companion team they would be able to blow the lanes open like league and shoot 3500. The reality is the companion team that go with the super star teams are better than these marginal teams.
At least you're ignoring all the responses and living up to your username. Congrats!
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I can only be pc for so long and then I have to tell it like it is.
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NBA?
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I see this topic still won't die...i've never seen a dead horse beaten more.
Here are some things most of you are forgetting:
1) Random draw - Sure this may take away a perceived advantage from the top teams. But it will also cause a severe decline in entries. You tell the average bowler, who goes out here trying to do their best, that now that can't bowl with their friends, they aren't coming back. So institute this if you want, and say goodbye to the tournament as it will be dead in less than 5 years. Now things will really be "fair", no one gets to bowl.
2) No good bowlers in the area - I have said this, and others have as well, that this is a BS excuse. I bowl with people who live in Canada, live in Texas and live in Pennsylvania. If you are a good bowler, you can get picked up by a top team no matter where you or they live. A lot of the top teams have bowlers from different areas. Saying this is a limitation is a cop-out and total BS.
3) 5 vs 10 person team - This is still a 5 person team event. You people act like the second 5 guys come along just to support the "A" team and don't try at all. That can't be further from the truth. The companion teams are trying their best. In a perfect world they hope the two teams finsih first and second. There are more than a few occassions where the "B" team has outscored the "A" team. How do you explain that with your logic? Each team is trying to do their best, each team is trying to score the highest they can. It's not like the "B" team is throwing charcoal up 3-5 every shot, picking 3 off the right just to dry up the lanes for the "A" team. But that is how you people are portraying it. If you go to a random draw, what's stops a team from going to the team they are paired with and say...."Hey, play this line and you will score better cause we are playing there too"? Or are you going to outlaw talking in your scenarios too?
4) One lane - Another way to kill the tournament. Bowling on one lane will only do one thing, further separate the top teams from the rest of the pack. You are taking away multiple things that potentially add difficulty to the sport. A pair of lanes don't always play the same due to a number of factors, this goes way. A pair of lanes don't always break down the same due to numerous factors, this goes away. I can go on and on. You complain about 10 guys working together, yet you want to make it even easier for a team to work together by removing difficulty. How does this make sense in anyone's mind?
Bottom-line is people really need to grow up. People need to realize they aren't as good as their THS average says. Once they do that, all of this will go away.
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A good friend of mine was part of the record setting team event Eagle winner this year. Their companion team was formed by Jeff Ussery. You know, Hammer brand manager. They were there to score just as much as anyone. They certainly weren't there to just help groom the lanes for the "Varsity" team.
The companion team is there to compete and they all work together to groom the pattern. But they aren't there to set up the lanes for the other team.
There are forums like this where you can coordinate with other bowlers and other teams. If you want a good 10 man group to go with start working the phone lines and forums to try to make it happen. These other teams and groups don't just happen to fall in line. It takes effort to field a group of guys like that. Put the effort forth if you want to see the results.
Any rules changes to address this complaint would be silly in my mind and as someone said it would hurt the groups of league bowlers the most as friends and family that make the trip together could now end up 40-50 lanes apart.
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Please, stop trying to artificially make things "fair".
Sorry if you can't find 4-9 other guys that are really good and want to cooperate. Heck, I have never been able to get enough bowlers interested in going to nationals at the same time to even get to go in the first place.
The one year we actually got two teams together to go, I got laid off from my job and couldn't go myself.
And, just because we were going does NOT mean that we thought we could win, only that we would get to compete.
Life isn't fair, and neither is bowling. Stop trying to make it so.
Juggsy, you are right on with your comment. Compete or die, boys. Anybody think of the idea that you can screw up their attempts to open the lanes by taking your plastic balls and throwing across their line? Would be hilarious to hear them bitch about you doing it all the while they are doing the same thing.
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Really. Making suggestions about possible rule changes is the a normal process. I am glad that you Internet police don't have access to the plug to my keyboard.
Every once in a while, some really great ideas come from brainstorming.
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I don't understand this. This whole sport has evolved. The lanes, equipment, and the lane conditioning. The game should be modified because of these changes.
I have be told countless times on this site about my stance on the high tech bowling ball. Basically statement is "Get over it! We are not going back to the old days! This is the modern game!"
It's funny to see statements "well we have been bowling this way for 20 some years!". I can guarantee that anyone making that statement isn't bowling exclusively with 20 year old bowling balls. Lane patterns and the ability to change them is very much part of today's game. A group of bowlers working together can easily open the toughest patterns.
Face the Facts! Opening a lane up is part of the game in a team event. So it seems logical to change the team event and make this new concept a part of it. Making it a 10 person team seems like a pretty good idea. Every team starts with the same condition on every lane. It's up to the entire team to decide how they want to play on their pair of lanes. Work as a team or not.
Another thing USBC should do about this whole thing. They should reveal the secret to opening any of their patterns up. This information should be given to all bowlers, not just a select few, because they know someone. How about that for an idea.
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trash heap,
If you read my post, not once did I use the arguement "that is how we have always done things", or anything to that effect. The only people complaining that something needs to change are the ones that fully believe their THS average is an accurate view of their skill level. Those are the Facts!!! People act like the companion teams are a bunch of schmoes whose only job is to throw the balls where the "A" team tells them to. There are many companion teams just as good if not better than their so-called "A" team. I mean it was just last year that Nicholas J Pro Shop 2 won the team event. Now I don't know the make-up of team 1, but this sure as hell sounds like a companion team to #1. And if you make it a 10 person team event....then you will still have the people crying about how they can't get enough bowlers together, just like they are now, so it really solves nothing. And it won't change anything either, the same teams will still be at the top of the leaderboard, the same teams will still cash and the same teams will still not cash on a consistant basis. So we change just to say we changed? Not a smart idea.
And what pray-tell is the "secret" to opening the lanes up that teams are hiding? The way to do it is to throw shots together at the same area, create some room to miss your target at the arrows a little and to methodically break-down the pattern in a known way so you can make smarter moves and smarter ball choices. There is no hidden secret, no magic, nothing stopping anyone from doing it. Well maybe there is one thing.....SKILL. Most people are nothing but THS bowlers that can't hit the same mark twice in a row if their life depended on it.
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ccrider,
You stated "Every once in a while, some really great ideas come from brainstorming.", which is true. What happens in a brainstorm is there are a lot of ideas thrown on the table, the real skill is finding that one great or good idea in the pile of fool's gold. I feel we have seen that huge pile of BS and we haven't gotten that good idea yet. Other's may feel differently, which is certainly their right.
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Jorge,
Thanks for your analytically worthless statement. It's one thing to take an idea and break it down, pointing out its strengths and weanesses. It's quite another to call it all BS.
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And what pray-tell is the "secret" to opening the lanes up that teams are hiding? The way to do it is to throw shots together at the same area, create some room to miss your target at the arrows a little and to methodically breakdown the pattern in a known way so you can make smarter moves and smarter ball choices. There is no hidden secret, no magic, nothing stopping anyone from doing it. Well maybe there is one thing.....SKILL. Most people are nothing but THS bowlers that can't hit the same mark twice in a row if their life depended on it.
Please don't take this the wrong way Jorge. Let me asks some questions about your statement.
1. Throw shots together at same area.
- Does it matter what the pattern is? Does the designated area change based on the pattern?
- Is the designated area define more of what type of bowlers you have on the team?
- What kind of ball do you throw? Highly Polished, High Sanded, Doesn't Matter
2. Breaking Down the Pattern.
- When do you know the pattern is starting open up?
3. To methodically breakdown the pattern in a known way so you can make smarter moves and smarter ball choices.
- As pattern break downs does the whole team make ball choices together?
- Are you as a team communicating what you see out there as you get into more games?
- Again does the pattern affect this decision making processes? With a known pattern in hand do you already have a game plan as to the ball progression or are things determined more on the fly?
I will be the first to admit. I never have done this in a team environment. I know what works for me personally, but I would imagine things would be different when you are trying to open a pattern that works for everyone on a team. Especially when there are bowlers of different styles.
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Like I've said several times, I have no problems with most of the way the thing is played, the only thing that boggles my mind is the " companion team" issue.
Look, plain and simple it is billed as a 5 person team event. So great everyone gets 5 guys and we go out and bowl, using what ever skill and strategy they want. Good deal
The problem is when you bring in another predetermined 5 guys to play along with that same strategy. Anyway you want to look at it, 5+5 =10. Its now no longer a 5 person team event, but a 10 person team event, with those that only brought there 5 person team as billed to the event at a possible disadvantage.
The goal of any tournament should be to set the boundaries from the start to be as close to the same for every 5 man team as you can get it. So whats the problem? Right now because of how the rules are set up it is a 5 man team event for some and a 10 man team event for others. Anyway you want to look at it thats just mind boggling.
Edit: Let me add that in no way am I saying that " Team B" is being brought solely to make "Team A" better.
Also on the issue that people would quit over it that tells me two things
1.) They are either ticked they can no longer game the tournament so to speak
or
2.) There is enough interest and bowlers that a 10 man event needs to be added.
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I have been bowling for 50 years. Having more good players on a pair has always been an advantage. The difference back then was that with weaker balls and lacquer finish everyone pretty much played the same area of the lane. Thus the track opened up in a very defined area, and moved in more predictably than is the case today, where one guy throwing a super dull ball can literally blow up an area by himself. By the time resin balls had been out for 5 years, the boomers were learning that the bests strategy was to start out deep right away, and let the shot come to them. Lower rev players were left to find a more playable area of the lane on the fresh oil, then inevitably at some point moved into an area that had already been tracked out. Whether this was fair or not becomes an irrelevant question when you look at the history of bowling.
There have been multiple revolutionary technological changes in the game that quickly made successful styles obsolete. When lacquer replaced shellac as a lane finish during the late 1940's the looping full rollers of stars like Ned Day were not as effective as the tighter straighter deliveries employed by Don Carter and Dick Weber. When urethane lane finish replaced lacquer, the smooth stroker styles of Jim Stefanich Tommy Hudson, Steve Neff and Nelson Burton junior could no longer compete with the grip it and rip it styles of Roth Holman, and a bevy of lesser talented crankers who took over the tour.
Every bowler who was accomplished in one environment felt betrayed by technological changes that radically changed the environment. It is ironic that the very ball technology some of us condemn, has lead to the most level playing field in the history of the game. The only real downside is that the balls are altering the environment too quickly in a manner than is arguably detrimental to the most competitive situation. The high tech lane machines allow us to set up patterns to challenge styles and promote versatility, but the balls can virtually make the lane pattern irrelevant.
I would love to see a limit put on the aggressiveness of ball surfaces, combined hopefully with continued advancements in oils that don't break down as rapidly. We probably can't go back to polyester balls, but nothing wrong with limits on surface prep. Maybe something like balls have to be 4000 abralon buff from the factory with no alterations allowed.
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Trash Heap answers for you.
At Nationals the pattern is changed every year if you watch the pod casts you can see where high scoring teams play and how they break them down. You can also practice on the pattern if a local house puts down the pattern.
Usually teams start between ten and five
Heavy oil balls with surface are most common, surface varies by bowler but usually 1000 and 2000 abralon tends to be common
The pattern is opening up when the lanes start to hook more and earlier, or if you start seeing miss room to the right.
Usually teams try to adjust together or within a frame or two of each other depending on styles.
Adjustments are discussed as a team so everyone knows what is going on.
Once the pattern is opened up it is about adjusting to transition not the original pattern.
Ball choices are pre planned.
Hope that helps.
Nothing is ever totally fair guys , gotta find a edge like any other sport, bringing ten bowlers can be that edge. I have no issue with it. If you don't like it find five more guys.
THS patterns do not matter guys that say the average 230 don't average 230. Me included.
At one point we used hard plastic then lt 48s then yelliw dots and so fourth this is the game progressing make adjustments, cause the sport is about adjustments who can make the best adjustments scores the best
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Nothing is ever totally fair guys , gotta find a edge like any other sport, bringing ten bowlers can be that edge. I have no issue with it. If you don't like it find five more guys.
Then it is not a 5 man team event. Really the number of bowlers on your actual team ( in this case its actually 10 not 5) should not be allowed to be your edge or they should change it to a 10 man event.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the bowlers for doing it, I'm wondering how the USBC is so stupid to let an event billed as a 5 person team event actually be a 10 person team event?
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The thing I find funny about this statement was that the topic had been inactive for over a week when this was posted.
It was dead but you revived it.
I see this topic still won't die...i've never seen a dead horse beaten more.
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Nothing is ever totally fair guys , gotta find a edge like any other sport, bringing ten bowlers can be that edge. I have no issue with it. If you don't like it find five more guys.
Then it is not a 5 man team event. Really the number of bowlers on your actual team ( in this case its actually 10 not 5) should not be allowed to be your edge or they should change it to a 10 man event.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the bowlers for doing it, I'm wondering how the USBC is so stupid to let an event billed as a 5 person team event actually be a 10 person team event?
it is a five man team just like league. the other five guys have to play somewhere on the lane. if one team plays ten board or you gonna make it illegal for the crossing team to play ten? the crossing team must play five boards from where the other team is playing? That won't work.
10 bowlers have to play somewhere on the lane, why is it such a big deal that they want to play the same spot? What if a five man team came out and the team they cross with decides to play in the same spot on the lane without consulting fhe other team? So they are breaking then down correctly, that should not be allowed?
Teams that bring a companion team oh well the same thing is going to happen here as mentioned in the previous paragraph.
This is how it is, if you wanna play them all stupid and score poorly that is for you to decide. Personally I want to give myself the best chance to score so I will help break them in correctly.
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Nothing is ever totally fair guys , gotta find a edge like any other sport, bringing ten bowlers can be that edge. I have no issue with it. If you don't like it find five more guys.
Then it is not a 5 man team event. Really the number of bowlers on your actual team ( in this case its actually 10 not 5) should not be allowed to be your edge or they should change it to a 10 man event.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the bowlers for doing it, I'm wondering how the USBC is so stupid to let an event billed as a 5 person team event actually be a 10 person team event?
it is a five man team just like league. the other five guys have to play somewhere on the lane. if one team plays ten board or you gonna make it illegal for the crossing team to play ten? the crossing team must play five boards from where the other team is playing? That won't work.
10 bowlers have to play somewhere on the lane, why is it such a big deal that they want to play the same spot? What if a five man team came out and the team they cross with decides to play in the same spot on the lane without consulting fhe other team? So they are breaking then down correctly, that should not be allowed?
Teams that bring a companion team oh well the same thing is going to happen here as mentioned in the previous paragraph.
This is how it is, if you wanna play them all stupid and score poorly that is for you to decide. Personally I want to give myself the best chance to score so I will help break them in correctly.
You aren't understanding the problem I have with it. I have zero issue with people playing the same line to break it down, what I have a problem with is how its setup.
Its a 5 man team event, if you get together with whoever you should be randomly selected with and decide to do that, then go for it. The problem I have with it is that its a 5 man team event, so who you get paired with should be random. Otherwise just make it a 10 man team event, which it sounds like it already is if you care anything about winning.
The main point for me is, stop calling what is really a 10 man team event a 5 man team event. If its a 5 man team event you should be picking 4 other guys, not 9.
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What difference does it make if you go their with ten and bowl on the same pair or go with five get a randomly selected team to cross with and agree with the crossing team in the squad room to break them down a pre determined way?
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It's not like it used to be a 20 man team event when you bowled at 10:30 at night and were at the mercy of the squad in front of you. It's been a 5 man team event for over 100 years. It ain't changing.
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Its not really a five man team event either, well not if you want to have a good score.
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Its five man team regardless of what you think, either team on the pair can win it mutually beneficial to work together. I don't understand how that equates into a ten man team. The only reason why it is not done in league is because your on the ths or it would be done their too.
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Let's not beat around the bush here.
The random draw worry is you have a team of strokers and you draw a companion team of super crankers. Sure they want to play together, but their definitions are slightly different areas of the lane due to their game.
And lets also face it, most companion teams have some level of associated talent and have prepared together. If the group says bowler x should ball down, he has that ball with him.
In a random draw, you goto companion team bowler and suggest that he ball down because of reaction and blowing open the pattern wrong he tells you that is the least aggressive piece he brought.
Then you plan is in trouble.
All of this discussion is simple. Some bowlers in small town America, which they cannot change, or should not have to change, may not have 9 other talented bowlers which has become necessary to win the team eagle.
So can USBC do something to level out that playing field since it is a 5 man event?
The only answer I have mentioned that no one can argue with other than tradition, is bowl on 1 lane. You still bowl with you companion team, buddies etc. You can still use their knowledge and expertise, but only you and your 4 team mates create your scores. Not you and your 9 buddies, which some bowlers do not have access to.
And in singles tournaments in foreign countries, you see this more often.
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Txbowler bowling with five guys on only is a pretty dumb idea you guys are whining about a unfair advantage with two teams working together, scores would go crazy if you had one team not alternate lanes during team event it would seperate competition further. And how many leagues bowl on one lane not a pair? Do any state tournaments use only one lane? I don't think so.
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If it separates scores, so be it. Right now, it gives certain teams an appearance of a competitive advantage. I think that is what everyone here is talking about.
Before fresh oil for everyone on every event, some groups through luck of the draw, got a competitive advantage.
Before posting the pattern online, some people with inside knowledge (per Riggs, these people existed) had the pattern and practiced on it. A competitive advantage.
Couple of years ago, a super talented team bowled by themselves and shot lights out due to an odd # of teams on the squad. And everyone complained that they had a competitive advantage.
I believe all everyone here is asking is, if it is possible to remove a competitive advantage. Then remove it. What ever that advantage may be.
Then the 5 member team from the 8 lane house in small town Alaska has the same chance to win as the 10 member teams from Arlington, or Wisconsin, or Wichita because small town Alaska probably cannot find the "talented" companion team that today's team bowling event has involved into to win the eagle.
That's all I am discussing. And it is simply a discussion of ideas.
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Might as well just call it the open bowling tournament and give everyone a trophy so no ones feelings get hurt. People Open bowl on one lane leagues and tournaments alternate lanes.
Bowling on one lane will make good teams better and bad teams worse. Then Mighty Fish will have something else to cry about.
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I see 5 men random draw for lane selection as the only fair solution. Otherwise, call it a ten men 2 team tournament because that is what iit is.
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The best teams are going to win regardless of having good companion teams. Only time I ever saw it as a factor was when we got teamed up with a group of women, 3 of whom were throwing polyester. It can also be a problem on those occasions where there is no companion team.
Bottom line, the "strategy" of burning in a shot is way over rated. The best strategy is to get 5 guys who all have similar styles be, it straighter or high rev. Asking a high rev cranker and an up the boards straight player to burn in a shot in the same area is like asking a lefty to play backup on the right side.
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mainzer,
Thanks for the reply. I find this very similiar to me fishing the outer banks two weeks ago. I was in the right location and had the right bait. Everything was in place except me not catching fish. Nice Man at the bait shop showed me a rig to use, and that was it! I was catching fish almost every cast that night. Difference - Rig I was using had one hook and was on the bottom, new rig had 3 hooks on it and they were spaced 12 to 18 to 24 inches from the bottom. I caught 99% of my fish on the top two hooks.
Bowling is no different. You can have the right equipment and throw great, but if you don't play the pattern the right way, it can be a very long day of with no fish ... I mean no strikes.
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Trash heap, great analogy. Perhaps Mainzer will be able to understand.
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Never knew there were 10 man teams?
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Trash heap, great analogy. Perhaps Mainzer will be able to understand.
i understand just fine, i would be for the random draw. I laughed with the analogy but it is perfect