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Author Topic: Ball roll and reaction  (Read 5425 times)

strikeking

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Ball roll and reaction
« on: October 10, 2013, 08:51:21 AM »
What are the mechanics needed to obtain forward roll at release? I don't mean the "dead-fish" straight ball, but the one that has a slight axis tilt that still hooks and shreds the rack. I've noticed several high average keglers that use this release rather than the conventional skid-flip that most bowlers use. Is there a video out there that shows this?
Thank You
Strikeking

 

Gizmo823

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2013, 09:07:47 AM »
Rather than trying to copy someone else's release, which even if seen is really hard to duplicate when you don't know what it's supposed to feel like, it's something you'll just have to play around with.  Would be a lot of help to have someone watch you so that you can develop a correlation between how it looks and how it feels, but you may have to have a coach help you specifically adjust your release, because there's not just one way to do it. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

avabob

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2013, 12:43:19 PM »
Best example I can give is working on staying behind the ball at release without much wrist rotation, and without grabbing the ball at the bottom.  You mention axis tilt, but I think you are looking for lower axis rotation ( about 20 degrees).

I get a very end over end look, by keeping any wrist cup out of my setup, letting muy fingers feel like they are pulling through the ball forward at release, not pulling up. 

This is a great release on flatter conditions, and carries very well if your speed and rev rates are well matched.  It can be less advantageous on house shots because it will transition quicker off the dry,  often forcing play too much head belly from inside the oil line.   
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 12:51:22 PM by avabob »

mdevore19

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2013, 12:52:28 PM »
I've worked on this for the last year and finally getting very comfortable with it. The hard part was having the forward roll with axis tilt. If you don't have axis tilt the ball will burn at your feet. I guess the key feelings for me is that my hand is closer to my side than the ball on the way down and then feel like the balls comes off equally between my middle and ring finger. The guys you want to watch are chris barnes and jason sterner. The main advantage is that you follow transitions a little easier because your ball roll is stable. It obviously has its limits if you are trying to cover a number of boards but don't let that stop you from using it left of 35. Fall back shots still work

strikeking

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2013, 02:06:53 PM »
Thanks for the helpful replies, except from "GIZMO". I find I CAN learn a lot from watching the BEST at what they do best. The pin action and carry that these "rollers" get far outshines the normal skid and flip action of the normal delivery. They get lots of revolutions and amazing hook action for a ball that doesn't flip to the pocket.

If anyone sees a video of this delivery, please post it.

Thank You
Strikeking

Gizmo823

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2013, 02:56:14 PM »
Thanks for calling me out there . . MDevore suggested watching Barnes and Sterner, of whom several videos are available on youtube, yet you ask for someone to post a video of the delivery?  If you want the ball to roll more end over end, you simply come more up the back of the ball instead of on the side . . and to add axis tilt you simply release the ball with your wrist slightly "cocked," meaning that at release (when your arm is straight down) your wrist is tilted so that your fingers come towards you or are closer to your leg.  Hold your arm straight down by your side, then tilt only your wrist slightly with your fingers coming towards your leg.  It's an extremely simple concept and I didn't want to say that up front and insult your intelligence, but since you went there . .  The ball rolls in the direction you make it roll, how hard is that to understand?  Want it to roll end over end, come straight up the back of it.  Want a 45 degree angle of rotation?  Release the ball with your palm turned 45 degrees . .  Here's your video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjIPW4gRsmQ

And another for good measure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2KEH7kxKAk

Thanks for the helpful replies, except from "GIZMO". I find I CAN learn a lot from watching the BEST at what they do best. The pin action and carry that these "rollers" get far outshines the normal skid and flip action of the normal delivery. They get lots of revolutions and amazing hook action for a ball that doesn't flip to the pocket.

If anyone sees a video of this delivery, please post it.

Thank You
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

strikeking

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2013, 03:11:30 PM »
Now that's more like it!!  It took two times but you really did help me. You didn't insult my intelligence, I'm not hat smart to start with.  Now I can try to practice the info I got.

Thank You
Strikeking

Gizmo823

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2013, 03:16:28 PM »
Actually it should have just taken the once.  I said have a coach watch you for a reason, sometimes what things look like and feel like can be very different, and if you try to copy Barnes and your game isn't at all similar to his, you could royally screw yourself up.  You at the very least need a camera so you can tape yourself and watch to make sure you at least know what it looks like.  If it was so easy, people would just watch videos and do it themselves and there wouldn't be coaches . .

Now that's more like it!!  It took two times but you really did help me. You didn't insult my intelligence, I'm not hat smart to start with.  Now I can try to practice the info I got.

Thank You
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

trash heap

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2013, 05:24:56 PM »
Quote
You at the very least need a camera so you can tape yourself and watch to make sure you at least know what it looks like.

I really think this is a requirement. You really need to see what you are doing.
Talkin' Trash!

avabob

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 06:40:34 PM »
Another thing that can come into play is finger pitch.  I started going 1/2 away on my fingers to keep my grip more relaxed, which helped me stay behind the ball, and roll it without grabbing.  If you decide to experiment with this, I would also adjust your thumb pitch from reverse to 0 or even slightly forward depending on your flexibility

Armourboy

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 06:09:31 AM »
Makes me giggle a bit when people want to learn to roll the ball more, its my natural shot and can drive me nuts sometimes. Now I'm not sure how it will work for learning to do it, but when I lose my release ( usually because I get to thinking too much) here are the steps I use to get it back.

1. I throw several shots just like I would a spare shot, very flat, no wrist cup, and no lift with the fingers. The reason I do this is just to see the ball roll and to stop worrying about reaction.

2. I start adding the other parts in to start increase reaction of the ball. Usually my first step it to add the lift of the fingers back in . At this point I'm still shooting it just like a very flat spare shot, but the added lift gets the ball reacting and having a bit more normal shape.

3. I usually add in the wrist cup and now you are pretty close to seeing the roll you want to see but with more reactions. From this you can start adjusting things if you want to see a bit more axis changes. ( They are really easy to see and do with this type of release imo)

Now the downside I've found to this release for me is that if things dry up too much in the fronts and I need to get too deep, I just don't have the oomph on the backend to get it done. This is what I've been working on personally  and I've found if I take that and just come around it a bit more I can usually get it ( I just stink at replicating that part of it because it feels very odd )

Joe Cool

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 09:53:09 AM »
I think this is where weaker actually becomes stronger.  I have the same general release and used to struggle when going deep.  I always thought a stronger ball was the answer, but for me, a weaker ball while coming around it a bit more actually addresses the issue.  The new challenge is being consistent with that type of release.  I become one of those guys spraying it all over the lanes.
Hit the pocket and hope for the best

avabob

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2013, 10:40:21 AM »
The problem with going deep using end over end roll ( low axis rotation ) is if you have to loop the ball around the oil.  This is pretty common on house patterns where the buildup in the middle stays in the midlanes after the heads break down.  On flatter patterns, or where you don't have a lot of high rev power players, end over end can be very effective from inside by playing a tighter line and moving your break point in as you move your target in.  Note the guys who bowled well on the Badger pattern on tour this summer.  Mostly lower rev end over end, playing 4th arrow on long oil. 

columbia300guy85

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Re: Ball roll and reaction
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2013, 11:14:25 PM »
The secret is keeping the fingers more up the back of the ball after the thumb clears. If the fingers rotate around the side it will create the side roll. Both have advantages on the right conditions. So practice both and your game will improve.