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Author Topic: The Joys of Handicap.....  (Read 7153 times)

Steven

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The Joys of Handicap.....
« on: October 20, 2003, 09:50:36 PM »
I bowled in a mixed doubles handicap tournament this last weekend. Handicap was 100% of the difference between book average and 220. That means a 170 average bowler was given 50 pins per game out of the gate. With my 220 entering book, I of course got a big fat zero.

The winning team had a female 170 bowler who averaged 220 over 8 games. Maybe it was a legitimate streak, but the odds say not. However, assuming the scores were legit, I would have had to average 270 to keep pace, which was unrealistic. Again, assuming her average was real, it's much easier for a 170 average bowler to go 220 than it is for a 220 bowler to maintain 270.

The point is to illustrate the basic unfairness of 100% handicap (or even 90% handicap) formats. Because it's harder to score more as you move up the chain, handicap needs to be in the 80% range to ensure some semblance of fairness.

Anyway, I did the tournament purely for fun and for the opportunity to bowl with a senior friend, so I wasn't overly disappointed. However, the outcome was predictable.

Some food for thought the next time you enter a similar format.  


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JOE FALCO

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2003, 11:14:16 AM »
Would like to agree with you but I can't .. in fact I BELIEVE the opposite. But we're all entitled to opinions!
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Steven

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2003, 11:56:03 AM »
I'm actually very surprised at the responses in this topic. I expected an avalanche of emotional replies defending the virtues of 100%-115% handicap, but most who replied showed a refreshing understanding of the issues and the problems with the current system. I was particularly impressed with the input from Kevin62571, who showed a level of character and class lacking in too many bowlers today.

However, Joe Falco, I'm disappointed that you still don't understand the handicap dynamics surrounding lower vs. higher average bowlers. The example of 100% handicap and calculations for a 170 average vs. a 220 average are very clear. Again, at 100% handicap, if a 170 bowler shoots 220, then the 220 bowler must shoot 270, which is a much more difficult feat to accomplish. Remember, as one progresses in average, it becomes increasingly more difficult to score higher. This is not a matter of opinion, but is one of fact. If there is something unclear here, I (or one of many others) would be happy to clear it up.
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Doc Hollywood

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2003, 12:05:03 PM »
My question is this If this 170 avg woman averaged 220 for the tournament where did everyone else average?  My guess is that they were much higher as well.

Most of the time the individual scores are not that much different than usual.

Only in a few instances where an individual or a team does really well in a tournament.  That is usually luck and on rare occasion the condition matches up well.  I know for a fact that I bowl on some of the worst if not the worst league conditions around.  When I get to bowl a tournament the condition is fresh so it lends itself to higher scoring conditions for me.  So I always bowl better.  Since money is involved I usually step up to the challange as well.  Some people fold.  Also some people have true averages where no matter where they go they average the same and then there are those that can only average high in one house.

Comes to mind a tournament in Vegas recently where the Peach joined my team.

We happen to do well but we do usually cash anyways.  No baggers on our team but when we hit the right conditions we bowl really well.
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LadyW

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2003, 12:27:11 PM »
You knew going into the tournament that the handicap was 100%.  Since that puts the advantage on the lower average bowlers side, you had the choice of not participating.  Why complain when you knew the odds?

Being a 170 bowler I can totally understand how someone can bowl those numbers with that average.

Most of us are 170 bowlers because we're inconsistant.  We're usually good spare bowlers but have problems understanding and adjusting to lane conditions which affects our strike percentage.  This prevents us from getting to the next level.

When the shot is there for us, watch out because chances are we'll blow you away in handicap competition.  On the other hand when we can't figure out the conditions, we're totally lost, hence the 170 average.

We usually have good basic skills and can take advantage of the shot when it's there for us.

So why not give credit where credit is due?
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LadyWannabe

bennett

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2003, 03:34:13 PM »
I haven't shot 270 yet this season. 267 is my high game.  I shot a 707 series along with my team, yet we lost because 170 average bowlers were bowling 220 games. There's not much I could do.  A 220, 238, 249 wasn't good enough to win.  I'm more likely to bowl those types of games than bowl 50 pins over my average which would be a 261 game.  A higher average bowler is happy when he/she is 20-25 pins over because it is harder to do.  When a higher average bowler shoots 50 over he/she pretty much needs all strikes except for one frame.  When you have to contend with ringing 10 pins, solid 8's and 9's that can stand on any given notice, you can't have any off shots.  A 170 average bowler can afford off shots and still hit 220.
I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.  

Steven

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2003, 05:27:56 PM »
quote:
Visual image received of Steven bowling with 130-140 average straight bowlers... HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA  


Leftside: LOL! It actually wasn't the most comfortable situation. But sometimes we make sacrifices. The "senior friend" I partnered with was dear old Mom (who I don't see that often). As I said up front, it was about the fun and companionship first, and anything else was gravy.  

Plus40: You nailed down the essence of LadyWannabe's response. She probably didn't realize that she explained the evils (and unfairness) of 100% handicap. Unfortunately, her answer was to live with it, instead of fix it, because the current system plays to her advantage.

Doc Hollywood: There were 80 doubles teams, and I didn't analyze how everyone did overall. When I scanned the final standings, it looked like a fairly even distribution of very good, average, and below average scores. It's not a high average house (I usually have trouble there) so I expected to see some lower scores. And while it's not the topic of the thread, we did OK overall. We cashed with a 6th place finish, and I came in second in the optional scratch sidepot with a 244 average. So this isn't about sour grapes -- just basic fairness.
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JOE FALCO

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2003, 08:49:26 PM »
I bowled today so I didn't get a chance to review comments .. let me give my thoughts!

KEVIN 62 ..A 160 bowler bowling 247 .. YES they do .. but NOT VERY OFTEN otherwise it would be reflected in his average .. the same with a 220 bowler bowling MUCH higher (I won't say 307) but much higher but not that often otherwise it would be reflected in their average! AVERAGES are averages .. sure they bowl higher .. we are talking TOURNAMENTS here .. should they bowl like the original poster said (average 220 for a 160 bowler in a tournament) ..NO! The idea is to be FAIR .. if the AVERAGE is CORRECT (no sandbaggers) 100% is FAIR and it should be calculated with a cutoff of the HIGHEST average in the TOURNAMENT!

STEVEN .. a 170 bowler has as much chance of bowling 220 as a 220 bowler has of bowling 270 .. to think otherwise would be ridiculous.(eliminating SANDBAGGERS).

Tell me the last tournament that you were in that MOST OF the 170 bowlers bowled 220 average? You are living in DREAM WORLDS!

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Edited on 10/23/2003 8:59 PM

Edited on 10/23/2003 9:00 PM
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JOE FALCO

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2003, 11:05:08 PM »
Of coarse there are exceptions to rules .. thats why 170 bowlers win HANDICAP tournaments .. even with the 100% handicap (which is RARELY GIVEN) the possibilities are that the HIGHER AVERAGE bowler ALSO bowls over his average and beat out the 170 AVERAGE bowler .. will you concede to THAT!

How many 170 bowlers were in that tournament in question and HOW MANY shot more than their average without handicap .. how many of the 220 shot more then their average .. probable will find the PERCENTAGE is the same .. thats why 100% is the FAIREST!

HOW MANY BOWLERS FIT YOUR QUALIFICATIONS? In your case it would be impossible to check back 2 years for your average because of your NOT BOWLING .. Of 20 tournament in the last year how many participants do you feel fit the situation you define for yourself? LIKE YOU SAID .. YOU ARE THE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE .. do you suggest that's a reason to not give the OTHER 99% lower average bowlers a CHANCE?

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JOE FALCO

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2003, 11:28:49 PM »
I went an looked at the site you suggested ..I guess I don't have the right equipment I see only the BIG SCORES on top all the details don't get displayed. Let me ask you to go to the 2002 site that you showed and ADD THE SCORES they claim 1135 .. I COUNT 1147  (244/255/246/267/135=1147) DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A BOWLER GOES TO A LOCAL TOURNAMENT AND SHOOTS THOSE NUMBERS .. MAYBE 1 in 250 .. I'd like to see the OTHER scores to see what the averages were for 2nd /3rd/etc. Having ANYONE shoot 300+ over their average HAS TO BE THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE IF HE'S NOT SANDBAGGING HIS AVERAGE!

I'll agree that it was a TYPOGRAPHIC ERROR on the scores!

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JOE FALCO

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2003, 11:51:44 PM »
If a bowler is AVERAGING 170 and shoots 220 how many 140 does he have to shoot to bring his average to 170? How many 250 does a 220 bowler shoot .. how many games does he have to shoot under 220 to offset the difference? The topic was TOURNAMENTS if I'm not mistaken .. I've been in quite a number of them ..

ALL THE TIME I've been saying .. CONTROL has to be on AVERAGE VERIFICATION .. my comments are tied to what percentage of HANDICAP is FAIR .. MY FEELING IS 100% OF THE CUTOFF EQUAL TO THE HIGHEST BOWLERS AVERAGE! EVERYONE STARTS OFF WITH THE SAME FOOT. Using 210 as a cutoff and allowing a bowler to bowl with a 220 average is like giving the tournament to the 220 bowler.

I'm not dictating to ANYONE what is right or what is wrong .. I offer my opinion .. I'm willing to discuss the topic further .. here's my email address: jkjfalco@aol.com. I think the points have been made here and everyone reading has food for THOUGHT!

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to VOICE MY OPINION!

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LadyW

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2003, 11:54:40 AM »
I knew exactly what I was saying.  Of course the advantage is on the side of the lower average bowler at 100% handicap.  My point was that everyone entering knew that and still chose to participate.

Steven stated that it was a doubles tournament.  He failed to mention the entering averages and scores bowled of both his and the winning teams partner.  Why didn't Steven enter with a lower average partner to try and level the playing field?

My objection was to the insinuation that the 170 entering average wasn't believable.

Contrary to what Dragon says, 170 bowlers don't stink, his attitude does.

I'm sure all of you didn't become 220 bowlers overnight. Have you all forgotten what it was like when you were at our level of play and still trying to improve upon your game?

You're obviously a lot more skilled than we are, but that doesn't mean that when we bowl really well that we didn't earn it.
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LadyWannabe

Steven

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2003, 12:47:10 PM »
Rags: Thanks for clearly pointing out my intent. I thought it was simple, but I guess it was being lost.

It's been a good thread with lots of interesting input. While most seem to agree with the truth that in general (i.e. most cases), 100% handicap favors lower average bowlers, there is a notable exception that might bring out further discussion -- Senior Bowlers.

For the most part, these folks have leveled off at whatever skill levels they have achieved. They are fighting the reality of diminishing skills as opposed to focusing on reaching new athletic highlights. This group tends to be steady without huge 'ups and downs'. My mom typifies this. She is a 155 book average bowler, which for her advanced age is really impressive. Her scores in most cases are in the 140-180 range. This is Joe Falco's world, this is what he sees, so he is convinced that 100% handicap is the right solution. And I would agree that seniors should be given the full difference.

However, for bowlers still developing (or capable of developing) their skills, 100% handicap becomes an advantage. In this group, it becomes a very real possibility to have a streak of averaging 50 pins or more over average. Of course not all of these 'up and comers' execute and come through, but it doesn't matter -- it only takes a few in each tournament to cast a shadow over the results.

LadyWannabe clearly understands this. However, what I find disturbing is the attitude of "Tough. That's the way it is and since it's to my personal advantage, I don't want it fixed".

Competitors should always call for as level a playing field as possible, because victory under any other circumstances is hollow. This is being lost on too many bowlers, and ultimately damages our game.    

   

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LadyW

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2003, 01:55:05 PM »
Steven-

Quote "Tough.  That's the way it is and since it's to my personal advantage, I don't want it fixed."

Was that comment directed towards me?  If so, please say so.  If that is the case, you totally misunderstood what I was trying to say and I would like the opportunity to clarify what I was trying to get across.
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LadyWannabe

Berreez

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2003, 10:12:30 AM »
If you know going into a tournament that the higher average bowler is at a disadvantage and you enter anyway, why complain? You knew up front!

Except for the HUGE handicap tournaments most high average bowlers make their money in the brackets. What does it matter if a 170 average bowler signs up for the scratch bracket? If you bowl better then him/her, you win.

Kevin62571: I commend you are you’re honesty, but let me state the obvious: When you enter a tournament re-rate yourself to the higher average! Do you do that? There isn’t a tournament director out there that wouldn’t let you do that.

Personally, I get a whopping 2 pins when I enter the 75% of 220 tournaments. I’m lucky that most of the time I get full sponsorship from my company in all events. Hell we even get our rooms free, but that’s another topic!

Yet I still enter these. Why? Friends, meeting new friends, different oil patterns, etc. I just enter in the scratch brackets and hope for the best.

This was said once already, but if the tournament director(s) would re-rate these 170 bowlers when they come back the following year based off of their tournament average we would see allot less sandbagging. There are such things called data bases!

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JOE FALCO

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Re: The Joys of Handicap.....
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2003, 10:30:09 AM »
BER .. Finally read something on this topic I can agree on!
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