Post by: scotts33 on October 14, 2004, 11:51:02 PM
USBC seems to be going the way ABC/WIBC has in the past. Nothing new here. Hierarchy the SAME and expect the SAME from USBC as you have as a sanctioned bowler as with ABC/WIBC.
Maybe we're heading back to Billings.....got my cowboy hat and boots ready to go.
So whadda ya think....same-o same-o????
Scott
Post by: cgilyeat on October 15, 2004, 08:32:37 AM
Post by: jimsey on October 15, 2004, 10:36:26 AM
I don't know how many applications that they received from outside the industry, I would tend to think that the choices were limited. I doubt that you will find very many corporate executives that are willing to attempt to run an organization in which you have to go to the delegates (who are volunteers often with limited knowledge of the issues) and seek approval for any changes that you want to make. The length of time that the process takes is incredible. The biggest change to date has been the reduction in the size of the board and its make-up, something that will hopefully streamline some of the process. Perhaps over time the areas over which the delegates have voting rights will change, and the board will have authority to respond to fluctuations in the industry more quickly and effectively. In the mean time, I believe it is in the best interest of bowling to have an executive that has had experience with the type of organization and structure that Roger Dalkin's leadership provides.
Post by: MichiganBowling on October 15, 2004, 11:47:08 AM
Let's give this a chance!
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Post by: scotts33 on October 15, 2004, 12:00:58 PM
quote:
Sometimes a fresh start is all that is needed. The old blanket of the current governing bodies is about to be shed. Perhaps this new beginning will spark some fresh ideas that will allow for positive change to happen.
Let's give this a chance!
I'll give it a chance Mich....but geez did they have to come back with the same ole retread directors???? That's what I was hoping for was a drastic change away from the ole hierarchy.
New people at helm, new ideas, new direction. Sorry I don't see Dalkin taking this a new way. JMO.
Scott
Post by: scotts33 on October 15, 2004, 02:18:10 PM
I do! That being said why bring back the old hierarchy of ABC? Aren't they saying in essence that nothing is broken so let's go with the good ole boys?
I don't agree with jimsey's opinion that there were limited choices of candidates available. It may have been limited becuase they didn't search hard enough.
Scott
Post by: scotts33 on October 15, 2004, 03:00:21 PM
quote:
Do you think those in power do not know that?
I'd guess they do. Probably why they developed the SOB and allow lane inspections 30 days prior to/30 days after an honor score is shot.
Maybe, we some of us on BR are in the minority.
But, why did they ABC/WIBC come out with sport conditions/leagues? Why does the Nat'l ABC tournament draw over 60,000 bowlers on an annual basis on a flat lane pattern.
The ole guys gotta go before anything will change for the better....along with the ole ways of doing business.
The PBA has done such a move and IMO so do the sanctioning bodies. For better or worse.
Like my uncle <a dairy farmer> used to say "You might as well go back to bed if you aren't in the field by 9." Well, USBC boys better wake up and smell the coffee....they've been asleep at the wheel for over 30 years!
Scott
Post by: jimsey on October 18, 2004, 12:01:45 PM
quote: The ole guys gotta go before anything will change for the better....along with the ole ways of doing business.
Can't agree with you more, however I don't think that it should apply to only the top people at the organization. We need a chnage in the national convention delegates as well as the state and local association board of directors. The problem becomes getting new blood to volunteer to get involved and have their voice heard where it counts. Anyone can complain that things need to change. Stepping up and working at it is something can be very frustrating because it is such a slow process. For every good idea that is put forward, there are dozens of people who will tell you it won't work and very few who are willing to help make it happen.
By the way, the new USBC board of directors is made up of 25 members, 5 from ABC, 5 from WIBC, 5 from YABA, and the balance from BPAA, athletes with international competition experience, USA bowling, and 2 at large reps. This replaces the old ABC board of 120 members. It is a new way of doing with a lot of new faces. I hope they can get the support that they need to make the changes that will be for the better.
Post by: scotts33 on October 18, 2004, 12:21:49 PM
This is what is needed one on one. NOT meeting after meeting about how we can fix our declining membership.
We're gonna fix it by getting out in the trenches to fix it.
I like the idea of streamlining USBC. Hopefully we'll see more of a hands on effort at the lower levels.
Scott
Post by: scotts33 on October 18, 2004, 01:47:52 PM
quote:
I asked what will happen down the road, and he just shrugged his shoulders.
Isn't that what's wrong with people in control of USBC? You get a lot of shoulder shrugging and I don't know. In my book, the majority of 'em can be replaced.
Scott
Post by: LuvThatWhiteDot on October 18, 2004, 02:22:08 PM
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Post by: scotts33 on October 18, 2004, 02:25:15 PM
Change starts at the top but the lil guys have to change the top for that to happen we need new leadership. Change is good nothing wrong with a revolution from time to time.
Leaders that have been at the top to long become complacent. Go with the flow...yes men. Get a salary and the heck with "real" change. Everybody nods yes like your ABC brass friends 'Bones but are they really doing anything about it to institute something that will change the numbers of bowlers as they constantly fall?
I say get off your butt USBC leaders and get out to some bowling centers where you will do some good. Or put more of an effort with some $ in that area and screw the vacations to Hawaii.
Scott
Post by: Pinbuster on October 18, 2004, 02:51:31 PM
Look at your leagues. The vast majority of bowlers are over 40 and they are dying, getting crippled, or just plain quitting faster than they are being replaced.
Kids are growing up in a computer generated bigger than life action world. They want instant gratification. They are use to games they can play 20 hours straight to memorize them and then throw them in the scrap heap to play only once in a great while. They don’t want to commit to something for 30+ weeks a year.
Bowling was a niche sport, became a national fad, and is now retreating back its niche status. Cosmic bowling, color pin, 9-pin no tap, pins missing, etc, are all gimmicks and are not real sport bowling. They may help keep the doors open but it isn’t really bowling.
The ABC (USBC) is really a regulatory agency to insure that the sport is played on a uniform field, with uniform equipment, with uniform rules, and run a few championship tournaments. They never have been a promotional organization.
Bowlers are the cause for the demise of scoring integrity. 25 years ago when honor scores were disallowed what did they do? First bowlers went to bowling centers that had higher scoring. Then they sued the ABC. Their main argument being that the bowler shouldn’t be punished for the transgression of the proprietor, even though they couldn’t have shot the score without the illegal lane condition.
The ABC couldn’t stand the cost of legal action and possible awards given by juries so they relented and went with short oil and the rest is history.
The momentum generated by our changing society will mean that the sport of bowling will continue to decline for sometime to come and no amount of self promotion is going to change it.
Post by: intergalactic on October 18, 2004, 03:03:45 PM
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Post by: jimsey on October 18, 2004, 03:30:06 PM
that is probably the best assessment of the current situation in bowling that I have ever heard. Too many people are out to blame someone for the ways things are. We live in a different society now then we did even 10 years ago. Priorities have changes, the availabilty of other activities has increased, and unfortunately we look for instant fixes far too often. League bowling is no longer the main focus for a proprietor. He needs to produce maximum income for his center. ABC/USBC cannot do that for him. ABC/USBC is a membership organization designed to help provide its members rules, uniform playing field, and recognition for accomplishment. It has taken on promoting of the sport to maintain its shrinking membership base. Bowlers are what bring people into the sport. Asking someone who hasn't bowled to bowl on your team produces results that advertising, promotions, and giveaways never will. Bowling will continue to decline if we wait for the magic act that so many seem to believe will rejuvinate our sport.
Post by: scotts33 on October 19, 2004, 07:42:34 AM
Scott
Post by: Pinbuster on October 19, 2004, 09:07:45 AM
The only changes I can think the ABC could do are to dictate a tougher lane conditioner standard and to start checking balls again when an honor score is thrown. But as I said above the majority of league bowlers don’t want this and listen to them howl if a score was thrown out because a ball was illegal (I’ll bet 10% of the balls being checked in at the ABC national tournament require fixes).
The proprietors have the biggest stakes in this game. They also have the most contact with possible new league bowlers. As you noted in on of your other posts, the staff at centers need to make personal contact with every “non-league†bowler that enters and thru a non-pressure sale see if they would be interested in bowling leagues. Probably on 1 in a 100 contacts may become fruitful but it is probably the only way.
We make a big deal about youth bowling. I’m guessing around here less than 5% of the kids who come out of YABA around here are bowling 10 years later. Unless they are into going to college on a bowling scholarship or going pro most quit organized bowling in their twenties. I don’t know if they really ever come back. The proprietors here fully sponsor high school bowling costing each center over $10k a year (they pay insurance, coaches, uniforms, donate lineage, etc) and I doubt if that money will ever return.
Sports have gone through these cycles and forces driving them are bigger than the participants. Tennis had a boom and is now struggling, slow pitch softball, and even golf that I believe is now falling off it’s peak.
Post by: scotts33 on October 19, 2004, 09:14:51 AM
quote:
We make a big deal about youth bowling. I’m guessing around here less than 5% of the kids who come out of YABA around here are bowling 10 years later. Unless they are into going to college on a bowling scholarship or going pro most quit organized bowling in their twenties. I don’t know if they really ever come back.
I'd have to disagree here Pinbuster. Many kids leave youth bowling as they become soph.-jr.s in high school but because they have the under pinnings of bowling at an early age come back to bowling in their 20's and 30's. It's a thing to do with their buddies as they mature. I live in a northern climate so there isn't as much to do from Nov.- March.
My original point about this whole Dalkin appointment was that until USBC moves to change things fronm the top down...I agree with you things in the bowling industry will stay the same.
Scott
Post by: jimsey on October 19, 2004, 10:36:53 AM
quote: Let's just let 'em run it down into the ground without a fight.
I think that is the point. It's not a fight, it needs to be a combined effort. No one is to blame, no one gets the credit, it's mutually beneficial to all. In some ways the proprietors are starting to get the message. Every other week leagues, short season leagues, nascar leagues are all examples of leagues that are targeted to a specific type of bowler. They can produce some excellent results. However, where ABC has fallen short is that these are not sanctioned bowlers. The traditional $16 sanction fee, awards, bonding, and lane certification are meaningless to these bowlers. ABC through Strike Ten gained several sponsors that provided free game coupons on their products. This greatly helped to bring open bowlers into the centers but produced vey few new sanctioned bowlers.
On pinbusters point for tougher conditions, I think ABC is making its point with sport bowling. Let there be a seperate distinction by identifying what a tougher condition is. Allow bowlers the choice of just how challenging a shot that they want to compete on. I have always felt that even house shots should be rated on a scoring potential scale. Let the bowlers know just how easy over difficult a particular house or lane condition really is.
On the issue of youth/adult bowlers. Scott, you make a great point. In current society, many youth bowlers drop out lae in high school or during college, move on to starting a career and a family and then will come back to bowling in their late 20's or early 30's as their lives stabilize. Only the very skilled continue bowling straight through.
I guess as far as Roger Dalkin is concerned, we will have to agree to disagree. Roger can be most effective by getting all the components of USBC working together before taking on a leadership role in the industry. That can't be done by making rules and tougher lane conditions but by finding a way to communicate with all bowlers and proprietors.
Post by: pin-chaser on October 19, 2004, 12:10:59 PM
Point 1: Bowling is in serious jepordy. It will take everyone working together to restore bowling to its hay levels.
Point 2: Other organizations that provide rules and regualtions advertise for there sport... Golf and tennis are examples. You dont see many athletes or golf courses pay for general national advertising unless it is for a specific event. But to draw people into the sport certinaly the organizational organization pay for advertising.
Point 3: There is no other organization going to step up and pay for it. If the UBSC/ABC/WIBC/PBA dont look after themselves who will? There are many of us individuals in the field doing what we can to make a difference but we have limited audience and virtually no money. Who has the access, all the information and collect monies and profits from the sport? They should work together to provide adversting.
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Post by: MichiganBowling on October 19, 2004, 12:50:14 PM
I'm not going to argue with you anymore about it, I'm just going to keep proving you wrong!
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
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Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: pin-chaser on October 19, 2004, 01:04:14 PM
I will contend that bowling is in a downward spiral indeed. But I will also contend that virutally no one in position of changing it is doing anything about it.
I agree that there are some proprietors being successful but they are doing it "alone". They have the information on how to do it better. Should not ABC/USBC make available this information to all proprietors? Who will step up to make a difference for our sport?
I know your history and unsuccessful attempts of making a difference. I commend you for what you have tried to do. And in your repsonses I hear that you are defeated. But your voice has a following. If change is to be made it will take all of us together.
In anything in life before change can happen it takes the belief that it can be different. Then you can change the direction of the wheels. You my friend should understand this having been a doctor and seeing all the changes in your profession during your life. Help us begin to believe it can be different.
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