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Author Topic: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?  (Read 12052 times)

star

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The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« on: September 06, 2018, 04:22:23 PM »
Just been skimming through this from Mo Pinel.

I haven’t seen it before and was wondering what others thoughts are.

Some new conclusions from the new rules for weight holes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOOZdetR2Fs
Happy go lucky bowler from the UK.
Specs. 430rpm,18mph off hand. 11-12deg Tilt, 50-60 deg Rotation. PAP 5 1/4 by 3/4 up.
                   R.I.P.
Mo Pinel. The Guru.
Larry Matthews “The Bowling Professor”
Sawbones.
Thong Princess.
Thanks for the FUN times.

 

avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2018, 04:05:11 PM »
This thread ie starting to remind me of the 80s.  I almost quit the game because of all those cup wristed crankers playing strike or no count while I spared myself into missed cuts.  Glad I stuck with it though.  By 95 I was making big bucks in the Masters and later high rollers.  High point was outscoring Learn and Marshall by threading the needle at 15-20 while they went out and back.   A lot of us straight players  ( Boghosian, Queen, Ernie ) faired pretty well during late 90s, early 2000s.  I could stillbe making money against the power players if age hadnt started to cath up with me.

The older I get, the better I was



tommygn

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2018, 04:22:33 PM »
And the game continues to loose participation since the early 80's, but we keep chasing score and rev rate as a means to keep people in it.
God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2018, 04:25:35 PM »
Loss in participation has never had anything to do with scoring pace, but that is as far as I want to go down this rabbit hole.

DP3

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2018, 04:59:10 PM »
 The reality about a 10 year old bowler is that due to extremely easy house conditions there's shots where the same ball can go flush going straight up 3rd arrow and being leaked out to 5 from the 3rd arrow by the same bowler on back to back shots. Everyone gets a nut for 300 sometimes but if a 10 year old can out average you over the course of a season on that same shot, then that ten year old is better. You have stats and numbers to back it up. The pins however react to entry angle and the force of which the ball hits the pins. It doesn't know if a 10 year old threw it, or if a 6'4 220lb man with 4% body fat threw it.

With all of the focus on the bowler and not the physics of what happens after the foul line, it boils down to jealousy. Jealousy that someone can funnel hack their way to throwing a more powerful ball than you can generate "traditionally". Walter Ray is one of the most accurate bowlers that ever lived and he taught himself how to bowl two handed after 50 years of age. Even he can't turn it on and "cheat" his way to winning every week.

I think your argument of "cheating" would hold a lot more weight if there were more documented cases of traditional style bowlers converting over to two handing it and dominating. It doesn't happen. The two handers aren't cheating, it's just a different set of mechanics that cause them to shape the lane different. It's only "exploitable" in maybe 6 tournaments a year on the PBA tour where the people that can bend it from a lane over to the left have the best shot at getting through the late blocks with a 250+ look. At the league and recreational level this isn't an issue. Even in the overwhelming majority of competitive tournaments it's not an issue. If any tournament it's an issue is the 12. & Under and under 15 divisions where kids can generate "adult" speed and rev rates but eventually as they more up, everything levels out.


avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2018, 05:15:08 PM »
Good point about roping one up 15 and leaking the next out to 5.  The problem for anyone doing that is there are usually a couple of greek churches and 5 count buckets interspersed with the strikes when someone routinely sprays the ball that much.  Your blind squirrel analogy is right on.  I have seen a lot of sprayers make 12 good shots , but the next week they are back to spraying. 

DP3

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2018, 07:03:34 PM »
Or the 10 year old that shot 300-630. What's the bigger threat to bowling? The 10 year old two handing a 12lb target zone? Or the house shot that's easy enough to shoot 300 on with a 12 lb plastic ball?

avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2018, 07:17:53 PM »
12 lb anything blows my mind.  Friend of mine who is a pretty good younger shooterwas having some wrist problems.   Watched him blow a couple of racks using a polished 12 lb hyroad playing inside 15 on a 42 foot sport pattern.  More hand than me, but not a power player by sny means

avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2018, 07:21:56 PM »
As for the 300, 630 that has been a symtom of the game for 20 years since resin staeted blowing up patterns.  I dont remember the first time I shot 300 with a sub 700, but it has happened several times.  Worst I remember, shot 300 the second game in a 4 game league.  Never got a double the last two.   Shot about 860 for 4. 

Impending Doom

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2018, 08:45:38 PM »
If there's no rule against it, is it really cheating?

spmcgivern

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2018, 08:17:47 AM »
If there's no rule against it, is it really cheating?

Guilty in the court of public opinion.... and I guess that is all that matters now-a-days.

tommygn

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2018, 08:29:07 AM »
Again, read my post, NEVER did I say it was "cheating". Nothing in the rules against it.

Calling it a "cheat code" to being able to hook it, (liking it to a cheat code to advance a bunch of levels in a video game) is not calling someone a "cheater".  Two very different things.

10 year olds who throw it two handed grow up to be adults who do. Lots more kids doing it because they can instantly hook it, without having to learn how to actually hook it. Reducing longevity in a life long participation sport at any level is a very dangerous proposition. Just because one 50 year old can do it, doesn't mean that the majority of kids who are currently bowling with this style, will be able to do it for the long haul. Life long participation sport people. You need to grow a niche sport with longevity, not a quick fix. You need to understand the demographic that bowling attracts.


If you don't think that extra hand on the ball makes a difference, ask Walter if it does.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 08:50:40 AM by tommygn »
God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

JazlarVonSteich

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2018, 09:59:50 AM »
The "cheat code" analogy is severely flawed. It literally says CHEAT, and it IS a form of cheating while playing a video game. Not sure how one can suggest it isn't.

In terms of putting an extra hand on the ball, that hand does NOTHING with regards to adding revs to the shot. It is simply to stabilize the ball during delivery.

Throwing two handed is not easy. Even if you can generate the extra revs and get it on the lane, it isn't easy to control. Many people can't do it. Just as many people can't generate a high rev rate throwing the ball with the thumb in.

People used to use just one finger and a thumb. Should we be promoting that style still? Isn't that more pure? Why is there a "correct" way to throw a hook? Get over it.

Also, to compare basketball to bowling - ie. pro vs 10 year old. If you can't see the difference in the two sports... wow.

tommygn

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2018, 10:12:32 AM »
If you can't understand that a 6 year old boy can throw his fathers 15lb bowling ball down a lane two handed, but can't traditionally, than there is no getting you to see logic.

Instead of calling it a "cheat code" that has your panties in a bunch how's this:

the "allow my 6 year old kid to throw a 15lb ball down the lane because I don't want to walk over to the ball rack and get a 6 lb ball, and teach him the proper way to actually bowl" code.

Walter Ray throws two handed later in blocks, cause why???

Use some "un"common sense man.

Keep drinking the kool-aid.





People who think only about today without any regard for the future, risk loosing their future.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdyH5GZvpZ4

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imagonman

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2018, 10:24:37 AM »
In golf , Was belly or anchored putting considered 'cheating'? How about Snead's original croquet style?
 NOPE......not until a few years later when the USGA & R&A made rules that deemed it so.
Don't expect the USBC to do the same...……….

Impending Doom

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2018, 11:41:25 AM »
If you can't understand that a 6 year old boy can throw his fathers 15lb bowling ball down a lane two handed, but can't traditionally, than there is no getting you to see logic.

Instead of calling it a "cheat code" that has your panties in a bunch how's this:

the "allow my 6 year old kid to throw a 15lb ball down the lane because I don't want to walk over to the ball rack and get a 6 lb ball, and teach him the proper way to actually bowl" code.

Walter Ray throws two handed later in blocks, cause why???

Use some "un"common sense man.

Keep drinking the kool-aid.





People who think only about today without any regard for the future, risk loosing their future.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdyH5GZvpZ4



LOOK AT ALL THAT JOY! KILL IT!