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Author Topic: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?  (Read 2359 times)

star

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The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« on: September 06, 2018, 04:22:23 PM »
Just been skimming through this from Mo Pinel.

I havenít seen it before and was wondering what others thoughts are.

Some new conclusions from the new rules for weight holes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOOZdetR2Fs
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BeerLeague

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2018, 01:46:38 PM »
"This ball/style/pattern/rule is ruining the game"- same guys who don't bowl for money, nor practices, and has had the same average since '93



I stand by my statement. 
  • I quit bowling for money when it became a carry contest.  The 2 handed style REALLY exploits this.
  • I quit bowling for money when my local organization decided to turn its head at sport/challenge leagues being sanctioned as regular.  The USBC was advised and did NOTHING.
  • I quit bowling for money when I am forced to GIVE PINS in sweepers to local Hall of Fame inductees with averages from unsanctioned sport leagues.
  • I quit bowling for money when the city tourney puts out a sport shot and forces us to use our 220 wall shot average against HOF MEMBERS and NATIONAL TITLE HOLDERS.
  • I quit bowling for money when the same people always CROSS EACH OTHER in local and state competitions while the rest of us "donaters" are forced to deal with people just out for the experience or lack knowledge of how to play a flatter condition.

All this happens consistently and has happened multiple times.  The USBC was advised and did nothing so you can see why I think they can take their rules that will cost me money and shove them you know where.

Bowling is now recreation for me.  I'll play jackpots and bowl the occasional "fun" tourney with friends.  The other 6 people left that will have not been run off by crap rules and 2 handed B.S. can bowl each other for "real" money in their "sport".  THe proprietors can fight over their business.  They might even get a league with 3 teams in it !!

OK .......... rant over WHEW !!! :o

 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 02:02:58 PM by BeerLeague »

avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2018, 01:50:52 PM »
Hi tech cores arent the problem, nor are 2 handers.  The problem is that high friction shells blow up any lane pattern too quickly.   Advancements in oils havent been able to combat sanded, or even box condition resin shells.  Polyester shells, or even urethane at 4000 grit would force players to play the pattern initially, rather than blow it up.  If a high rev player can square up enough initially until they open up, they deserve to score.

BeerLeague

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2018, 01:53:18 PM »
If a high rev player can square up enough initially until they open up, they deserve to score.

I agree 100% with this statement.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 01:55:19 PM by BeerLeague »

avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2018, 02:02:06 PM »
If you are bowling handicap leagues and tournaments, you are playing at a recreational level, and really shouldnt expect to be making money.   The purpose of handicap is to level the playing field rather than reward the most talented. 

Two handers arent the problem either.  They are simply a product of a high friction environment that rewards high rev rates to a great degree

DP3

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2018, 02:19:41 PM »
Hi tech cores arent the problem, nor are 2 handers.  The problem is that high friction shells blow up any lane pattern too quickly.   Advancements in oils havent been able to combat sanded, or even box condition resin shells. 

It was literally impossible to "open them up" for the past two years at USBC Nationals. Why? The oil. Pros are able to open up their patterns because they have 2-3x the revolutions of us league bowlers and they can hit a spot 2-3x smaller than we can with 2-3x the accuracy.

The overwhelming majority of bowlers can't repeat the same shot, with enough revrate to breakdown the thicker oils on these tough patterns that are used for these tournaments.

If you get down to the sole root of the complaints that bowlers have with the game being "too easy" or "unfair cause of two handers and equipment", it's always anecdotal. There's plenty of places you can choose to bowl where it's not easy. Even if you were to establish an average for 21 games then seek out tournaments as a weekend warrior.

But it's a lot easier to put the blame on people who are scoring at ease than it is to accept that you physically cannot do what it takes to be an elite player. Whether that's putting 600rpms on it, or splitting hairs like Barnes & Duke.

The biggest benefit to easier patterns is all the friction on the edges that makes people much better spare shooters than what they really are. Guys don't even look at anything for left side spares, just slow down, wind up on it and let the lane guide it to the pins on the left. For the 3, 6, 9, & 10 pin, just move accordingly and chuck it to the right. If you miss a little, added friction "squares up" your ball for the corner pins. If you miss a left, the puddle in the middle gives you 5 more feet of skid before your ball sees the lane.

....but that's a whole new can of worms that nobody wants to admit to/talk about

I understand the goal for everyone isn't to be an elite player, but it should be to have fun. Usually when humans don't find something fun anymore, they quit doing it and move onto something else. It just gets so F'N old hearing people complain for 10-20-30-40-60+ years of how little they enjoy the game.

I understand all of your plights and gripes with the game, I really do... It's just that this self-loathing bowler shtick does nothing but drive away the bowlers who can't stand to be around the negativity. About 90% of my friends that I've had for the past 15 years are competitive high-level bowlers that weekend warrior 30+ weeks a year in addition to 2-4 leagues a week. They don't share the attitudes of the people who are complaining the most about "what's wrong with the game". They just shoe up and fill frames.

Look everywhere and you'll find that some of the biggest complainers are barely participants.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 02:21:52 PM by DP3 »

BowlingForDonuts

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2018, 02:36:15 PM »
I love the game today.  Only thing wrong with it is all the lanes closing.  Probably due to as you say a bunch of people that only care about bowling the sport or more specifically money and being so insufferable they wonder why league bowling is dying.  So much easier to bowl and enjoy yourself with family than deal with people who mostly just suck (ok to be fair people in league I was in were very laid back and cool but not bowling on your own schedule sucks).  Glad the sport side is there don't get me wrong but that is where most the bellyaching is coming from.  I don't even let the USBC bother me any more as they are largely irrelevant to the game side.  The sport sure needs the game a lot more than vice versa especially as league revenue continues to decline.  I am just happy to have a hobby that is going to possibly prolong my life and life quality instead of shorten it like so many others.  Last thing I want is to turn it into a job or something that is a hassle. Demographics are very weird right now (giant older and younger generation but small middle generation) and things will sort itself out hopefully in a good way.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 04:15:48 PM by BowlingForDonuts »
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ignitebowling

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2018, 03:23:12 PM »
If blowing up the pattern is such a problem why isn't using low flare, urethane, or plastic to alter the pattern considered the same problem? At the end of the day it still falls under pattern integrity which is a huge reason for this change by USBC.

Pattern integrity also is affected by surface. Taking 180 grit to a less flaring ball that doesn't have a huge flare increasing weight hole will still allow the bowlers to put a hole in the pattern. Plenty of bowlers working together at nationals with a lot of surface on one ball for just that reason. Along with others using plastic etc to push the oil where needed.

USBC said the rules changes wouldn't affect scores, only hope to help with pattern integrity.......which must be house shots since the majority of the sanctioning body only bowls on their regular house shot and nothing else. I guess now I will call my house shot a "league pattern" or "league condition" to sound more sport compliant.
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BowlingForDonuts

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2018, 03:40:02 PM »
USBC said the rules changes wouldn't affect scores, only hope to help with pattern integrity

I thought the whole thing with motion holes was mainly to keep no thumbers from being able to turn the ball whatever way and have basically a motion hole in different places during competition.  Hard to keep up with what side of their mouth they are talking out of admittedly lol.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 04:00:35 PM by BowlingForDonuts »
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tommygn

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2018, 08:24:58 AM »
Hi tech cores arent the problem, nor are 2 handers.  The problem is that high friction shells blow up any lane pattern too quickly.   Advancements in oils havent been able to combat sanded, or even box condition resin shells.  Polyester shells, or even urethane at 4000 grit would force players to play the pattern initially, rather than blow it up.  If a high rev player can square up enough initially until they open up, they deserve to score.

The PWBA tour don't blow patterns up near as fast as the PBA tour, using the same equipment and just as much, if not more surface. That's just a fact.

Their rev rates don't force them in near as much, leveling of the depletion throughout the lane.

Using the two handed style creates more players using a higher rev rate than what people would have if they had to take the time to learn to curve it a lot traditionally. It's like finding a cheat code for a video game to take you to level 20 in an instant.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 08:50:49 AM by tommygn »
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avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2018, 12:13:20 PM »
Agree totally about the women.  Also true generally for seniors.  However there have been plenty of high reving one handers who immediately move left and blow up the middles for several years.  The pros figured it out, and most of them have gone to lower axis rotations and to some extent urethane equipment in order to stay away from the middle longer.   

There is a difference between a pattern breaking down over a number of games,  as opposed to blowing up from everyone playing everywhere right out of the gate.   Modern shells break down patterns too quickly under the best of circumstances .  The super high rev rates of many modern playersmakes the problem worse by allowing them to not having to play the pattern. We were seeing this start to happen long before the rise of the two hander.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 12:31:00 PM by avabob »

DP3

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2018, 02:27:13 PM »
People have "pattern integrity" complaints like every time they bowl, it's US Open burn squad cause theirs a two hander in the building. Most of the two hander hate I see comes from the fact that they have it "easier" when the lanes are tighter/wetter because they can rely on hook at the end of the pattern where the average player "max's out" at a point on the lanes where they can no longer go left, for righties, and still get the ball to hook and finish like the two handers.

Throw in the fact that the average two hander in 2018 is about 17-24 years old, still has their youth, weighs about 130-140lbs soaking set, and you have a huge ego bruise to the "REAL MEN" who drove their truck to league, hate iPhones, and millenials (who they confuse with the Gen-Z'ers who they actually have a problem with).

50% real issues......100% ego bruising........this is the controversy around hate for two handed bowling. (I am guilty of this as well)

avabob

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Re: The New Reality of Ball Motion? Thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2018, 05:50:24 PM »
2 handers are just a unique exsmple of power player.  Their success at the pro level is based on the same thing that traditional power players like Rash and Tacket  have learned.  If you watch, nobody is standing left and throwing right on long slick patterns.  As an old low rev stroker, I like nothing better than playing against an out and back power player on a long slick fresh  pattern.