BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: 12XSECH on July 19, 2014, 08:11:32 AM
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A friend thats a PBA member got a questionnaire about bowling. One of the questions was ...if the prize fund was $8000.00 how many events will you join? He answered zero. 8 grand? what a sorry state of affairs bowling is in. The PBA is run by idiots. They rape the ball and equipment companies to have their products used on tour. This is why many companies are dropping out..AMF, 900 Global etc... and why other companies like Seismic, Lane#1 etc...never joined. ITS TO EXPENSIVE! Watch Brunswick pull out next. Whos worse? The PBA or the USBC?
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Neither. The USBC and PBA are just run by morons. The organization itself isn't bad.
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They have been trying for 50 years to figure out at way to bring big money interest to bowling in the form of advertising to create decent prize funds. Were mistakes made. Probably, but the fact is bowling, unlike golf, never had a following in the moneyed class. How many CEOs came from a bowling family as opposed to coming from Country Club families.
It killed the potential because these guys were not interested in pouring advertising money at the demographics of bowling, even though the number of bowlers and people who watched it on tv dwarfed golf at one time.
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Avabob, you make a good point about CEOs coming from bowling and country club families. I hadn't thought of that.
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DOOM has it covered.
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Money talks. If advertisers thought that they would be better suited to run commercials and pay sponsorship money to the PBA on Sunday afternoons while running against the NFL they would.
Give them a model and show them why it is a good investment. Those numbers talk.
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If the PBA held only 4 major tournaments a year, first place coud be .5 mil. Concentrate on Regionals. Forget TV, concentrate on the money.
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PBA should shift to summer. They would be competing against baseball, golf, and NASCAR. As opposed to NBA and NFL. Hold regionals through winter then take top so many point winners in each region and do a hand full of televized tournaments. Similar to how NASCAR has the shootout. The player with the most points at the end of the 5 tournament "shootout" is years champion.
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Most of the changes proposed amount to the equivalent of re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Bowling is a great game. I feel sorry for young people who may never get a chance to get hooked on it like I did. From a money point of view the pro game has been doomed from the 70's. Back then people use to ask me why I didn't go pro. Easy answer, I had a college education and a job that netted me as much as a top 10 money winner on the tour. Probably a couple of thousand other guys out there just like me around the country. I remember coming back from watching a national PBA stop in 1975, right after bowling nationals. It struck me at the time how many really good bowlers weren't on tour, and how many mediocre ones were out there.
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Nobody takes bowling serious because in any league there are guys drinking beer, eating pizza then getting up and throwing a shot. No other sport can you do this. Its a bad image but thats what it is and that wont change. The kids today dont know bowling ediquit (sp) and if they acted like this on a golf course they would be thrown out. The tour NEEDS a major that the winner gets a MILLION bucks. Start with just one major like that and see where it goes.
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The PBA has had high dollar payouts in the past, in a lot of ways it's irrelevant.
Bowling is not broken just the idea of what some feel the game needs...if the game, the centers primarily looked at growing the game and not just the higher levels, the game would be rewarded.
If you look at golf, every golf course I visit has summer programs for the kids and many are free and supply clubs...too many centers look at a transparent bottom line, one of urgency as in today and not tomorrow...or too concerned abt implementing programs that don't turn immediate returns.
If we don't grow the youth and look at the 70mil rec bowlers out there, the same ole consensus will continue to infect the psyche on some...the game is not broken and should be presented as such...
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Doesn't seem to impact the perception of golf when guys are passed out in the rough ( yes I have seen this more than once ) after the fifth round at the beer cart. And this was in a tournament.
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We had one that fell in the sand trap and couldn't get out
Lost his keys wallet and eventually his clubs...got 2 outa 3 back
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Nobody takes bowling serious because in any league there are guys drinking beer, eating pizza then getting up and throwing a shot. No other sport can you do this. Its a bad image but thats what it is and that wont change. The kids today dont know bowling ediquit (sp) and if they acted like this on a golf course they would be thrown out. The tour NEEDS a major that the winner gets a MILLION bucks. Start with just one major like that and see where it goes.
baseball players chew tobacco, gum and eat nuts then get up and bat with them still in their mouth. The leagues and tournaments around here serve beer and guys get sauced up while they play.
Mark Sanchez QB for the Jets was eating a hot dog on the sidelines then going out and playing.
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This whole drinking during the game thing is not the problem with the sport. We might like to believe were all twenty something's with a 26 inch waists who climb mountains and run marathons in are spare time but it's not true.
There's nothing wrong with a sport that reflects real people who might drink a beer, smoke a cigarette, or be a little overweight, and like to have a good time.
You don't have to bench press 300 pounds or be 6'10" to bowl well. There should be a way to market this as the common mans sport. I don't know maybe just doesn't work in an age where we raise are kids to think everyone's special.
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The bottom line is that people who bowl at a high competitive level are mostly fairly athletic, and take the game seriously. If you want to compare recreational bowlers, compare them to slow pitch softball players, or twice a year golfers.
The only place where top bowlers are an embarrassment is when you compare the money they make against golfers or tennis players. Of course I would argue that pro golfers money winnings are also an embarrassment, but at the other extreme.
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All you folks who are compare golf and bowling need to watch Real Sports tomorrow night on HBO. The previews I saw showed golf courses being closed and some courses changing to 15 inch cups. Because as you know, golf is failing because it's too hard. ::)
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Never said golf wasn't failing...they closed abt 15-20% of courses in the Phoenix area in the past 5 yrs and do not have anywhere close to the amt of participants that bowling does my statement referenced the ability of golf being pro-active in growth...bowling, the so-called competitive dinosaurs think that if the PBA and/or competitive bowling is 'saved' it'll save the game...the game is not broken just the mentality of some
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Never said golf wasn't failing...they closed abt 15-20% of courses in the Phoenix area in the past 5 yrs and do not have anywhere close to the amt of participants that bowling does my statement referenced the ability of golf being pro-active in growth...bowling, the so-called competitive dinosaurs think that if the PBA and/or competitive bowling is 'saved' it'll save the game...the game is not broken just the mentality of some
This may be a confounding concept, but all my comments are not necessarily directed at you.
And on second thought, yours may not have been directed at me. If that's the case, I stand corrected. ;)
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Just a couple of notes that I have probably posted multiple times on message boards. League bowlers are declining primarily because there has been no infusion of new league bowlers over the past 30 years to match the boom that started in the early 60's. The number of bowlers who quit for reasons other than age or infirmity is dwarfed by the number of golfers who quit each year. Why do golfers quit. Mostly because the game is too frustrating based on the time, effort, and cost involved.
Just another note. When I started golfing in 1980 it cost about $5-7 to play an 18 hole round. I played a PGA course in Vegas for $10 in June of 1983 Today, $25 per round is a bargain on munis, and it goes up dramatically from there. They over built course to a tremendous degree between 1995 and 2005 especially upper end priced courses. The recession was a huge killer for middle income golfers.
I am not sure if anything can save the PBA, but anything that might save it will be good for competitive bowling at local levels. Recreational bowling is doing just fine. Why would a kid who has some good hand eye and is competitive want to bowl when they could put the same effort into golf and get a scholarship. Also as an aside I read once where a higher percentage of scholarship college gofers went on to make a living in golf than in any other scholarship sport.
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Golf is finally seeing a decline do to the Tiger effect wearing off...
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The problem to me is the people at the top are all about self-preservation. They are trying to save competitive bowling (or what they prefer as competitive bowling) because they feel it is in their best interests. It really has nothing to do with saving bowling overall at all. It's all about hanging on to the past and refusing to adapt to the much different entertainment world.
You can't try to make bowling for everyone into what you want it to be. It won't work.
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I disagree with the point 12XSECH tried to make. When bowling was at it's peak and had more participants by far than any other sport, guys smoked, ate pizza and took a drink of beer before throwing a shot. How would he explain that? There's a lot drunken a-holes on golf courses around the nation. The problem just goes back to youth and the lack of them taking up league bowling. Young kids today have way more things to get their attention and time than we had 30-40 years ago and it has also causes them to attention spans the size of a gnat. Bowling is still a reasonably inexpensive sport to participate in and is still one of the only sports that you can do at any age. It's just so much harder to get that point out in today's world!!
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12XSECH Lane 1 was at one time balls were registered with the PBA I ordered several balls from them when I had my membership.
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Strap in everybody, I've got opinions. First we have to look at the relationship of the pro to the amateur to the casual player. Pros in every other sport are very obviously better than amateurs or casual players. It's easy to feel good making par on a golf hole that's 425 yards long, but when somebody on tour makes par on a 500 yard dogleg par 4 with trees and sand and water everywhere, it's obvious to see they're better than you are. This makes it fun to watch professionals in a sport you like or are into, EVERYONE can admire or appreciate their skill, you don't have anybody sitting back going, "Well if Nike sponsored me too, I could destroy those guys."
Bowling used to be an everyman sport. Everybody liked it because the more well off still enjoyed it, and poorer people liked it because a lot of the bowlers of the past were guys just like they were, but it was obvious they were a lot better. Back when guys would average 230 or 240 for the week that was something, because even good league bowlers were down in the 210s. Now people that average 230 in league don't want to watch guys average 230 on tv because they see it happen every week while they're bowling. Because the oil is invisible, it's harder to see the difference between one guy hooking a ball into the pocket and another even if the shots are different. Back a few decades ago there weren't many surprises, because everything was mostly the same. Tour shots were similar to a lot of league shots for one reason or another, maybe even easier, but that just made the pros look even better. There weren't a million ways to drill a ball, and the pros still had more balls than the average guy, but not as ridiculous as it is now.
Now I hear so many people saying, "Well I think I could compete, but I don't have the sponsors and equipment all these guys have." Bowling has become more about equipment, layouts, surfaces, and match ups than the skill of the athlete. In basketball, the ball is the same size for everybody and so is the hoop. Baseball? Golf? Hockey? In bowling though, if you don't walk into a tournament prepared, you could get beaten by somebody a lot less skilled than you because they matched up better or brought the right equipment.
The PBA is definitely doing the right thing making the pros bowl on tougher patterns so that skill has more to do with it than luck, but back in the huge high scoring tv matches, that was some exciting stuff to watch. Nobody wants to watch pros struggle to shoot 200, but that's because par for the course is 230 or 240 now. When nobody shot 240s or 250s very often in league, it was impressive to see the pros do it. Now if they miss once it's almost like, "dang, no 300 this game."
Plus bowling is boring as hell to watch now, everything is so quiet and dead. I liked the shows where they didn't set up the "arena," where everybody cheered a lot more and where people appeared to be having fun. Now the bowlers are disappointed, dejected, and throwing fits more often than not. I don't want to watch guys pout for two solid hours. Then you have a lot of fake, gimmicky high tacky corny stuff going on constantly. People trying to inject excitement into places it doesn't normally come in, goofy commentator or personality names like Mike J Laneside and Jackie Bowling (who the hell is she anyway but a bleach blonde chick somebody found to sit in the audience and look way too high maintenance?). PBA coverage is painfully sad, it all looks and sounds like a jr high production. Between Randy trying to make sure everybody knows just how much smarter he is than they are, Dave Ryan or Rob Stone or whoever being generally clueless, putting shows on CBS Sports, which nobody has, and then taking forever to upload stuff to Xtra Frame, it's all just a huge frustrating mess.
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A little long winded today, eh?
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Bowling suffers today compared to 30 yrs ago quite simply as there is more to do or offer for your dollar and generation M (millennium) the tech age doesn't wanna bowl league...they're into now more so than 9 weeks from now...
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Bowling suffers today compared to 30 yrs ago quite simply as there is more to do or offer for your dollar and generation M (millennium) the tech age doesn't wanna bowl league...they're into now more so than 9 weeks from now...
Plain and simple truth right here. Ratings were made up of shutins and the elderly in the days of PBA on ABC. The advertisers wised up and realized that the demographic watching the Tour on Saturdays was not the one with the money. When the advertisers pulled out, ABC saw the writing on the wall and shipped it off to ESPN. When you have kids playing XBox and all the other distractions, when bowling industry can't decide to cater to the people who want the latest hook monster or the female mixed league bowler who wants a pretty ball and that's all the matters ( (mysoginistic, I know), and elderly people who with new knee joints want to go out and hike and play pickleball, bowling has to compete for the entertainment dollar. To do it, they have to bastardize the sport by making it all bells and whistles, bright lights, and Lucky Strike style center which avid bowlers hate.
I've asked this before and I'll ask it again....why should anybody care what a pro bowler is bowling for? They want to bowl for that prize fund, that's on them. Was not that long ago when pro football and pro baseball players had offseason jobs to help pay the bills. If the PBA bowlers want to make it better, they will have to sell themselves to the network, just like they did when they first formed. They have to go out and get the advertisers. They have to produce the shows. They have to sell it to the networks. If it goes, it goes. If it survives, it survives.
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Too many feel entitled to more than they should...
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The odd thing I've noticed with bowling, just around the center that I bowl at is that more often than not, people just need a little push. Keep in mind the place I bowl at has zero leagues, so you don't see a ton of guys with multi ball bags rolling in.
Just as an example, the other day I was out bowling and I had a couple next to me. It was pretty obvious it was simply about entertainment, well until she told him he couldn't hit something, and then it was game on! Anyways here I am, alone, throwing my pretty crappy shots, when they both start rolling better. Being the bowler I have always been I give them a smile and say " nice shot ". Anyways before it was over they were asking questions, wanting to know how to hook it, and frankly just a back ground of how things work. I let them see the differences in grips, explained some basics and they were fascinated. By the time I left the guy was already figuring it out somewhat which left a smile on my face.
Now I would like to think what little I did may encourage them to play more, maybe even look into the game a bit more and enjoy it as I do. I've begun to understand that the only problem with bowling is the bowlers. People still enjoy it, its still fun, but for some reason or another the serious bowlers seem to look down on the average bowler. I think thats the biggest thing I noticed when I golfed years ago, there was no one looking down on me or saying I was the problem. My friends and others did nothing but encourage me to play more.
You want to grow the game of bowling? You want to see you leagues grow? You want to see the PBA take off again? Then everyone from the league bowler to the PBA guys need to be out there encouraging people to play. Stop looking at the cosmic bowler, or the guy with one plastic ball that plays once a month as the enemy. I think back to when I was golfing, and as bad as I was the guys playing weekend tournaments weren't looking down on me, they were encouraging me to play more. Thats one reason Golf is stonger than Bowling, even with less people actually doing it.
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I don't think it's just today . . I think I have a problem . .
A little long winded today, eh?
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The first step, whether up or back, to recovery is admitting you have a problem
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Just how much longer or shorter are we making these steps . . cause I'm pretty sure there's an easier way to do it.
The first step, whether up or back, to recovery is admitting you have a problem
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It doesn't now, never has, and likely never will have anything to do with scoring or lane conditions. 45 years ago scoring was at a lot lower level on both the tour and locally, but there were still dozens of guys in every large association who were scoring as good as the guys on tv.
I always thought that bowling got the caliber of talent that it paid for on tour. If tour stops had been paying 100,000 in the 70's and more than 20 guys could make a decent living out there we would probably have seen a pretty major change in faces as the incentive to try the tour increased.
Bowling is what it is, and there are a lot more forms of participatory entertainment venues available to people now than when I was young. Bowling still gets a respectable following, that is in some ways dis proportionate to the money, but there is no way it can ever be what it was during the boom of the 50's and 60's
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The only people disappointed by bowling are the people that want it to be something else. Those that appreciate it for what it is aren't complaining about it.
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^^^^^^^^^B I N G O^^^^^^^^^
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Not issuing a challenge, just asking a question, I respect what you say and am not trying to be argumentative, but isn't a lot of the fun of watching professional sports derived from seeing people do exceptional things that can't be done by the vast majority of the population? I don't see local guys playing baseball throwing 95mph OR hitting that pitch 425 feet up into the stands. I don't see city league bball players regularly draining 30 footers or faking people out of their shoes. But everytime I go to a bowling alley I can see somebody shooting 300 or 800, and regularly hear, "If I was on staff with Storm and got free balls I could be out there too," because they don't understand the real challenge or the skill required. It's obvious watching other sports that the regular guy isn't going to dunk on a 7 footer, guys can barely hit 70 mph pitches at the batting cages, I know I'm sure as hell not going to blow through a 300 pound lineman or drop a 220 foot shot with a 7 iron a few feet from the cup completely blind and uphill. Maybe my perspective isn't shared by many, but I don't think many people have any interest in watching something they can do themselves unless they're REALLY into it. Bowling pros aren't impressive unless you really know your stuff.
It doesn't now, never has, and likely never will have anything to do with scoring or lane conditions. 45 years ago scoring was at a lot lower level on both the tour and locally, but there were still dozens of guys in every large association who were scoring as good as the guys on tv.
I always thought that bowling got the caliber of talent that it paid for on tour. If tour stops had been paying 100,000 in the 70's and more than 20 guys could make a decent living out there we would probably have seen a pretty major change in faces as the incentive to try the tour increased.
Bowling is what it is, and there are a lot more forms of participatory entertainment venues available to people now than when I was young. Bowling still gets a respectable following, that is in some ways dis proportionate to the money, but there is no way it can ever be what it was during the boom of the 50's and 60's
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^^^^^^^B I N G O^^^^^^^
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I agree totally Gizmo about wanting to watch athletes do things that the rest of us cant. My point is that bowling never was that way. It isn't about guys jumping higher, running faster, or being stronger. A lot of people watched bowling on tv in the 60's and 70's, and those pros didn't score any better than you could see if you went down and watched the best scratch league in town at the time.
There was a local golf tournament in town the past weekend. I didn't go out this year, but in the past I have. There are normally 20 guys out there who to my eye look like they could be on tour, but none have ever even had a tour card. They drive the ball long and straight with good looking swings, and they knock down puts. Of course I understand the difference between Pebble Beach and a 6700 yard muni, but these guys look just as amazing as the guys on tv. Same with bowling.
Like I said, bowling is what it is. I love the game, and am sad that not enough others get interested in it to keep it as viable on a competitive level as I would hope
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I know how good the pros are, I love bowling, yet I still don't care about the PBA or any elite competition. It just doesn't make for compelling TV. It's as entertaining as watching a house hack light up rock and glow bowling.
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I would rather bowl than watch on tv, but I feel the same way about golf.
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In my opinion, I think the back and forth in this thread shows exactly what is wrong with the PBA. It isn't one simple thing, it's a whole bunch of things. Some of it, is the average bowlers aren't compelled to watch cause they don't see the pros as being that much better then them (even though they are). The blue oil thing is nice, but unless houses start doing that around the country, people still won't understand the difference. If you could see how you local THS looked with the blue oil and compare it what the PBA shots look like, then you might get a feel for how much harder the PBA shots are. Some of it is when it's on. ESPN loves having bowling on against the NFL, it's a cheap program for them and it draws better ratings then anything else it could put there (even though the are tiny compared to what bowling used to get on ABC). Some of it is people not caring to watch when they could be out participating. It's all of this combined, plus probably a lot more, that has the PBA where it is today.
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A couple of thoughts come to mind with me.
Issue #1: I see the issue with competitive that it cost too much. A bowler is required to have an arsenal and update it every year. Also, routine maintenance is required for today's balls. This doesn't help either. All this costs a lot of money.
Issue #2: THS is so wide spread now that most bowling centers in the country don't offer anything close to sport patterns. A bowler who only practices on THS is not going to excel on the tougher conditions. Its a huge learning curve. (Not just executing but also the mental side too).
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Great point on the learning curve Trasheap. That's the biggest reason some of us old guys hang on and stay competitive longer than we should. I learned my game on a lot of conditions over the years, learning to play many different angles when we didn't have balls that quickly snowplowed a hole in the pattern. That is a huge advantage on todays sport conditions, particularly out of the gate before guys blow them up