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Author Topic: The real problem with house shots  (Read 17073 times)

avabob

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The real problem with house shots
« on: August 27, 2012, 01:49:21 PM »
Every so often someone comes on here and starts a thread about the THS, and how bad it is for bowling.  Usually they cite integrity, unrealistic scoring, and and guys spraying the ball all over the lane who shoot award scores. 

Frankly I don't think any of the reasons usually cited for why THS is bad have much validity.  I hear top level scratch bowlers complaining about a house hack shooting 300, and it sounds like sour grapes to me.  Can you imagine a top level PGA pro complaining because an amatuer shoots 66 on a 6200 yard muni?  Bowlers know what they are playing on.

Some people argue that the THS rewards bad execution.   I think that is totally false.  THS may not punish an errant shot as badly as a tournament pattern would, but THS rewards good execution ( speed control, release ). 

So what is the only real problem with the THS?  Until recently it was very difficult to find anything but the THS to bowl league on.  For anyone aspiring to compete at a relatively high level the most important thing to learn is versatility.  You can't learn versatility on a steady diet of one type of condition.  When I was young we bowled on a lot of walled up conditions, but some were dead off the corner, and others had a ton of hold at 3rd arrow.  That is how we developed a versatile game.  Today people should play on as many conditions as possible, including house shots       

 

edpup316

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2012, 05:32:57 AM »
Hmm... . The THS, doesn't really seem to be the problem.  It seems to be the people bragging about scoring that really bugs a lot of players.
(from a sociological point of view, of course)

This is funny because its exactly how I feel. Whenever I get asked what my avg. is it makes me feel uncomfortable to say 224 because I know full well that its just the accurate or impressive because I have built that up bowling on a house shot. I'm def going to use the "bunny slope" comparison on my buddies that think they are just the "IT" of bowling in particular some 2 fingered, no thumb jokesters that have no business avg above 190.

Cornerpin

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2012, 07:35:58 AM »
Every so often someone comes on here and starts a thread about the THS, and how bad it is for bowling.  Usually they cite integrity, unrealistic scoring, and and guys spraying the ball all over the lane who shoot award scores. 

Frankly I don't think any of the reasons usually cited for why THS is bad have much validity.  I hear top level scratch bowlers complaining about a house hack shooting 300, and it sounds like sour grapes to me.  Can you imagine a top level PGA pro complaining because an amatuer shoots 66 on a 6200 yard muni?  Bowlers know what they are playing on.

Definitely agree on that point.  Until the last year or so I was one of the THS naysayers who always complained when others would out score me or average much higher than I did, rationalizing that the shot was so easy that it was what made these bowlers score better than me not that I was maybe not as good as they were at reading the shot and replicating good shots.  But then on the weeks I did put up a big set, I would tend to downplay the THS benefit and think it was my good bowling that resulted in my good series. 

In the last couple of years I dumped this THS attitude and decided to go about improving my game so I could hang with the big boys on the THS.  I improved my average and overall game to the point that I have done much better in other tournaments that don't put out the THS.

So, in my opinion and experience, the majority of the THS complainers are not PBA level bowlers who want to level the field so they can display their skills over regular league bowlers but are regular league bowlers who cannot average 230+ on the THS like some guys are able to do and then use the excuse that it is the THS that is making those bowlers and if they were on a sport shot they would beat them more often than not.  I can say this because I was one of those complainers.

So, my advice to those who are always complaining about the THS being too easy and killing the game to go out and practice and get better so you can average 230+ because I would venture to say that you will also increase your sport shot average as well.       

 

trash heap

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2012, 03:48:12 PM »
Let's take the Golf Comparison again. Two golfers, play the same course. One hits from the gold tees (7000 plus yards, rating/slope = 74.4/137), and one hits from the red tees (4800 yards, rating/slope = 68.8/122).

Both shoot a 72.  Which game impresses you the most? Are they both equal in accomplishment? Should they be treated as the same?

Same thing with THS versus more challenging patterns. They are not the same. It doesn't matter you can average 240, 200, or 180 on a THS. To me bowling on this pattern means nothing in ability especially when it takes out one of the key elements required in bowling. That key element being "Accuracy!". It just doesn't work.

All you can state is you bowl great on the easiest shot in bowling. That's it. It cannot be compared to anything else.
 
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Long Gone Daddy

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2012, 06:53:03 PM »
What you need to ask yourself is "why does that bother you so much"?  It shouldn't yet it just seems to eat you alive.


Let's take the Golf Comparison again. Two golfers, play the same course. One hits from the gold tees (7000 plus yards, rating/slope = 74.4/137), and one hits from the red tees (4800 yards, rating/slope = 68.8/122).

Both shoot a 72.  Which game impresses you the most? Are they both equal in accomplishment? Should they be treated as the same?

Same thing with THS versus more challenging patterns. They are not the same. It doesn't matter you can average 240, 200, or 180 on a THS. To me bowling on this pattern means nothing in ability especially when it takes out one of the key elements required in bowling. That key element being "Accuracy!". It just doesn't work.

All you can state is you bowl great on the easiest shot in bowling. That's it. It cannot be compared to anything else.
Long Gone also posts the honest truth which is why i respect him. He posts these things knowing some may not like it.

Mainzer

Smash49

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2012, 07:07:30 PM »
The real problem with the house shot is inconsistency.  Recently I bought an AMF summer pass.  I had only been bowling about 2 or 3 games a month and thought it might be a good way to get back in shape.  Well the center I was bowling at has been known as the toughest in DFW.  It got shut down the first week in August.  I had to finish my pass at AMF Euless as it is the closest.  I had only bowled 1 game at Euless in a year and that was a demonstration with a house ball.  So I went to Euless and got a lane and asked one question.  When I got to the lane I stretched out and threw my 2 games.  244 and 290.  Last game stone 9, picked it up and off the sheet.  That would never happen at AMF Irving!  For that matter anywhere else.  If you average 210 at Irving you are tough at Euless it needs to be 230.  I have heard there is a 20 pin difference between AMF Richardson and Plano Superbowl.  Some places are stupidly easy.  Some are stupidly tough and rest are all over the place.  So is a 230 average bowler at an easy house as good as a 200 average bowler at a tough center.  Are they comparable.  How can some one average 230 at on center consistently and 200 at another?

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trash heap

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2012, 09:20:32 AM »
What you need to ask yourself is "why does that bother you so much"?  It shouldn't yet it just seems to eat you alive.

I was wondering when you would show up to the party. Welcome.

It doesn't bother me as much as you think. I am entitle to opinion.

What some fail to realize is the THS is the root of some the biggest problems in league bowling today. What are the two biggest complaints we hear all the time?

Handicap and Sandbagging.

You make the shot more challenging and you eliminate these two issues.

Handicap issues go away because now you don't get those inflated scores across the board (This goes with Low and High Average Bowlers).

Now since the shot is more challenging those that sandbag are going to find it more difficult to pour it on when needed. They will really need to let their average slip big time to make a difference, because strikes won't be as easy to get.

Added bonus: Averages becomes a better representation to one's ability.  You then find more bowlers willing compete outside their home center. It gives many bowlers confidence to compete in tournaments. Right now plenty of bowlers go home from state and local tournaments wondering if they will go again next year. Knowing that their home center average is too high and they can't compete.
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txbowler

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2012, 10:21:39 AM »
In my opinion, these is an issue that people on this board know about but do not seem to address.

If you toughen lane conditions, some % of bowlers will quit because they cannot average what they average now.  Cannot strike enough etc.  This will take $ from the owners of the lanes.  Some lanes may close. 

But I know.  It's not your money, and it seems from a lot of comments on this board, that because "you" cannot get the respect that "you" feel "you" deserve, that something should be done.

I am fairly certain, that most bowling centers are in business for one reason and one reason only; to make a profit.  And having high scoring conditions, like it or not, probably increases those profits.

Yes, it does not help the integrity of the game, or allow one person to really measure themselves against another via average.

If you want to know if you are better than someone else.  Bowl against them on a variety of lane patterns and whoever scores the best is better.  Otherwise, you are just taking an educated guess.  Within a 20 pin average differential, anyone can probably beat someone else on a given day.  Or even a given week.

This all still seems to me to boil down to bowlers with egos who have trouble losing to someone they perceive having less talent.

scotts33

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2012, 10:40:14 AM »
Here is a case in point about the proprietor of a 40 lane 16 year old house where I bowl mainly (2 leagues).

Proprietor bowls one full-time 5-man league on the wet/dry house shot.  39', 19ml, not much outside 7-8, poor length wise taper too much in back of pattern Kegel Offense on 16 yr. old 1st Generation Bruns Proanvilane.  Proprietor is a good 205 to 215 ave. bowler been bowling for 30+ years.  Ave. 198 in that 5-man league shot 703 best scratch series.  I bowl in this league and see it personally.

Compare to when he went to City tourney  (USBC White #2) and shot mid 700's and WI State (USBC Blue not sure which one) where he shot way above what he can shoot in league on the wet/dry wall.

My point being that here is a guy who decides on the house condition and can play harder patterns better because he is allowed to play different angles than when he is forced inside where his scoring is diminished.  Proprietors could put out a USBC White pattern and not effect scoring of wet/dry bowlers....in fact they would help them by allowing them to play various angles and lines. 

Proprietors are stuck with their wet/dry house shots cuz they don't know any difference.  Don't want to put in the time to learn nor the effort to make it more playable for everyone and allow the house bowler to understand that this can be fun and proprietor would keep more happy and keep his bowlers.  I say bowlers quit because they hate wet/dry house shots and get complacent.  Again why golf is fun it's the few good shots you hit in a round that keep golfers coming back. 
Scott

trash heap

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2012, 11:55:54 AM »
It's not about forcing change, its about promoting it. Most of us on here see the benefits of challenging oil patterns. We know bowling on them makes you a better bowler. They also provide a challenge reward for good shot making. That's a great thing! Why not promote it!

My opinion about THS, Enjoy it! Have Fun. Keep the bowlers coming in. I bowl in leagues with THS. I don't sit there and moan when I get beat. I give proper congrats. It's whoever has the highest score at the end. We bowled on the same pattern. My opponent has no more of an advantage than me. I stay just as focused on THS shot as I do on other patterns. I am there to win, I play to win.
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Djarum

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2012, 04:06:32 PM »
I bowled in a league this summer that rotated between red white and blue patterns througout the league. The white pattern was almost unplayable for most bowlers on older synthetics. The only bowlers who did well on the blue pattern were those with very little hand or those with higher than average speed. The short pattern just made just about everything overreact on the backend on the white pattern. The blue pattern was rather opposite. Most of the better bowlers were bowling better than on red.

scotts33

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2012, 04:13:09 PM »
I bowled in a league this summer that rotated between red white and blue patterns througout the league. The white pattern was almost unplayable for most bowlers on older synthetics. The only bowlers who did well on the blue pattern were those with very little hand or those with higher than average speed. The short pattern just made just about everything overreact on the backend on the white pattern. The blue pattern was rather opposite. Most of the better bowlers were bowling better than on red.

There are 3 patterns of each Red, White and Blue of varying lengths, volume and a library of how to set up for each machine.  If the lane topography is not correct for the #1, #2 or #3 R/W/B then  bowlers will find it more difficult.  Proprietors again have to put forth the effort to get the correct number R/W/B for their specific lane topography and climate of their house.  Plus get their lane conditioning machine in good working order.  I tend to think poor lane maintenance is usually the largest issue.

It takes a learning curve.  Now you have to work with your ball speed, release, ball surfaces and layouts to match up the best.  But, I have not found any of the R/W/B patterns unscoreable and much easier than the majority of sport patterns.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 04:15:47 PM by scotts33 »
Scott

MrPerfect

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2012, 06:28:06 PM »
Personally, I think it comes down to wanting to challenge yourself.

I could bowl completely the same and one week I'd shoot 800, next week 680, the following week 720, and then 660 not changing a thing on a house shot. A house shot is just about maximizing carry, it's a different "type" of bowling. You always try to maximize carry on sports shots, but there are a lot of other things going on with a sport shot, but on a house shot carry is usually the only factor.

I saw a great case of that this week. We had a gentleman bowl on the same shot, with the same ball, and on the same pair. On Monday he shoots 785 but on Thursday he shoot 599.

David Lee Yskes

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2012, 10:41:23 PM »
So here is a good example of what is wrong with house shots.

I have not bowled 1 game since April.... i bowled 2 games tonight since league starts up Weds..

Without any warm up shots I bowl games of 213 and 247.... 

So does this mean I am ready for the PBA Tour????   ::)
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dmonroe814

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2012, 07:18:59 AM »
YES!! Go for IT!!!
So here is a good example of what is wrong with house shots.

I have not bowled 1 game since April.... i bowled 2 games tonight since league starts up Weds..

Without any warm up shots I bowl games of 213 and 247.... 

So does this mean I am ready for the PBA Tour????   ::)

14lb 15.5 mph at pins 325 Revs. Silver Coach, Ball Driller. In Bag:  Storm Pro-Motion, Hyroad X, Matchup, Code Red.

Cornerpin

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Re: The real problem with house shots
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2012, 07:24:05 AM »
No, it means you averaged 230 for the two games.  A PBA bowler would average well above this on a house shot, so there is no comparison there. 

If only people would realize that a THS inflates scoring for EVERY type of bowler, even the ones who claim to be sport shot pros.