BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: avabob on August 27, 2012, 01:49:21 PM
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Every so often someone comes on here and starts a thread about the THS, and how bad it is for bowling. Usually they cite integrity, unrealistic scoring, and and guys spraying the ball all over the lane who shoot award scores.
Frankly I don't think any of the reasons usually cited for why THS is bad have much validity. I hear top level scratch bowlers complaining about a house hack shooting 300, and it sounds like sour grapes to me. Can you imagine a top level PGA pro complaining because an amatuer shoots 66 on a 6200 yard muni? Bowlers know what they are playing on.
Some people argue that the THS rewards bad execution. I think that is totally false. THS may not punish an errant shot as badly as a tournament pattern would, but THS rewards good execution ( speed control, release ).
So what is the only real problem with the THS? Until recently it was very difficult to find anything but the THS to bowl league on. For anyone aspiring to compete at a relatively high level the most important thing to learn is versatility. You can't learn versatility on a steady diet of one type of condition. When I was young we bowled on a lot of walled up conditions, but some were dead off the corner, and others had a ton of hold at 3rd arrow. That is how we developed a versatile game. Today people should play on as many conditions as possible, including house shots
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I have always said that bowling scores are relative to the condition. Yes, the THS can reward the lower average bowlers. But high average bowlers can benefit, too.
Too many times you see a low average bowler shoot a big game or series and then you start hearing the higher average bowlers complain that they didn't have the carry. To that I say what I heard Parker Bohn III once say: On a given league night, there might be 4 or 5 balls in your bag that you can get to the pocket. But there is usually only one that will have the highest percentage of carrying. Great bowlers know their equipment.
If you are a great bowler, you will excel on a THS more times than not. Yes, you might see lower average bowlers shoot better on a given night. But over a season, you the great bowlers, should be at the top.
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Good points. Although the THS typically doesn't demand accuracy and precise repetition, it's a house shot for everyone - the high handicappers as well as the scratch bowler.
The high handicappers will have their days when they score big and are tough to beat, but they are still high handicappers for a reason. Maybe they can't convert the 10 pin, maybe they aren't adept at moving as the shot transitions, who knows? Over time the better bowlers should win the better percentage of games.
I get tired of throwing the same ball and same line week after week, so I will occasionally bring a much weaker ball that forces me to play straighter up the boards and try my luck out there. It just gives me a reason to focus on SOMETHING and keep my interest. This past summer I bowled on the PBA shots, and enjoyed every minute of it. I didn't bowl well, but sure enjoyed the challenge.
Every night we can choose to complain that the shot is too easy, or too hard, or too anything! Whatever it is just embrace it and do your best on it.
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IMHO the problem with house shots are the center owners as well as all of us blowers. most bowlers want a shot they can score and well scores mean money for the centers and with hundreds closing each year ya can really blame them for trying to put out the highest scoring pattern. True some bowlers myself included would prefer a harder pattern that awards for shot making but the majority of bowlers will look at it as "well i score better at this House see ya I'm bowling there". I'm a fan of sport conditions but most bowlers were I'm from dint want to average 175 when they like averaging 220 (using two house mouses from past summer for example) the leagues ended up going away.
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Well said, sir. :)
Every so often someone comes on here and starts a thread about the THS, and how bad it is for bowling. Usually they cite integrity, unrealistic scoring, and and guys spraying the ball all over the lane who shoot award scores.
Frankly I don't think any of the reasons usually cited for why THS is bad have much validity. I hear top level scratch bowlers complaining about a house hack shooting 300, and it sounds like sour grapes to me. Can you imagine a top level PGA pro complaining because an amatuer shoots 66 on a 6200 yard muni? Bowlers know what they are playing on.
Some people argue that the THS rewards bad execution. I think that is totally false. THS may not punish an errant shot as badly as a tournament pattern would, but THS rewards good execution ( speed control, release ).
So what is the only real problem with the THS? Until recently it was very difficult to find anything but the THS to bowl league on. For anyone aspiring to compete at a relatively high level the most important thing to learn is versatility. You can't learn versatility on a steady diet of one type of condition. When I was young we bowled on a lot of walled up conditions, but some were dead off the corner, and others had a ton of hold at 3rd arrow. That is how we developed a versatile game. Today people should play on as many conditions as possible, including house shots
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I will always maintain, THS or not, the elite will separate themselves out from the rest. It always does...
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If THS is that easy, then how come the elite bowlers are not averaging 279 or higher ? The shot is what it is. I ran a handicap and scratch tournament locally for over 11 years. Only a few wanted a harder shot. Most wanted to throw right and watch the ball strike. This is the modern scoring game.
I do agree that centers are putting down easy shots to attract bowlers. Put down a high scoring shot and the bowlers will come, put down a hard shot and hope your open play increases othewise the center personnel will be watching TV all night.
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I saw on the tube the other day that golf is facing attrition at an alarming rate among recreational players. Biggest beefs are frustration from difficulty, cost, and time consuming nature of the game.
I think house shots are great for beginners and recreational players. Despite some people arguments to the contrary, it still requires the mastery of a certain amount of skill to shoot high scores giving recreational players a moderate challenge.
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I saw on the tube the other day that golf is facing attrition at an alarming rate among recreational players. Biggest beefs are frustration from difficulty, cost, and time consuming nature of the game.
I think house shots are great for beginners and recreational players. Despite some people arguments to the contrary, it still requires the mastery of a certain amount of skill to shoot high scores giving recreational players a moderate challenge.
I disagree with the difficulty aspect of golf. Since, different tee boxes are available in golf. One can play the correct tee box/yardage for their driver distance. Hence, the PGA Tee It Forward program. If golf was as easy as the wet/dry THS most I know that enjoy the challenge of the game of golf would give it up. Par is not easily attainable for most golfers. Golf being a much harder game to become very good at which is not the case in bowling on easy lane conditions.
The reason golf has lost numbers....1.) Recession which is related to ...... 2.) Cost, 3) Amount of time it takes to play a 18 hole round. Difficulty would be down the list.
Back to OP "The real problem with house shots"...........is making a decent bowler lazy and when faced with a more difficult condition the house bowler because of the easier condition has developed poor technique and can't make the adjustments needed to score of a more difficult condition.
I've always been of the opinion that a proprietor could put out not a difficult condition but a USBC White of the correct volume and length needed for the lane surface in his house and that would allow more bowlers to bowl on the condition using stronger equipment for better carry. It would allow different bowlers of skill levels and techniques to play the lanes from different angles and learn to adjust a bit better than the dead China Wall with nothing outside and the puddle in the middle. The wet/dry wall makes players play the shot with very few choices and becomes lazy not perfecting their skills to be a better player and retain some interest at getting better. Also why very few house bowlers practice.
Most golfers, I know score within a few strokes on most rounds but because it's not easy and they are looking forward to going back to see if some shots could be executed better.
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I bowl in an easy house and my average went up about 10 pins from the other centers I bowled in. Doesn't change anything for me. I still know where I fit in as a bowler and don't care when I get beat by others on an easy condition or a hard contition. When it is all said and done you have to show up and bowl.
If your a good bowler you know it. If your a house hack, you know it. If you bowl, you know who these people are even if they don't.
Bowling is full of babies. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can move on.
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Gotta love the some in the business. The real problem with house shots, or stupid high scoring conditions if you wish, was written about in 1937 by Billy Sixty.
Here is the link I found: http://www.kegel.net/V3/ArticleDetails.aspx?ID=64 (http://www.kegel.net/V3/ArticleDetails.aspx?ID=64)
One quote from this article stands out:
"And there folks, is the very point that I have endeavored to bring out: The matter of a bowler quitting because his average is too low. Too low to begin to compare with what the big shots are rolling. The gap between the average scorer and the star, under present conditions, is simply too great. To the little fellow the difference looms too large; too big to ever be overcome, regardless of practice. The positive way to encourage the average roller is to narrow the gap – by toughening conditions."
avabob has it part right, but most have it completely wrong. It is time people in bowling stop thinking in shallow selfish ways, and start thinking, and acting, for the greater good of the game.
The "people will quit" argument is getting tiring. News flash - people are quitting at a very high rate now. Maybe "the walled up house shot" is more to blame that people want to admit.
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"It is time people in bowling stop thinking in shallow selfish ways, and start thinking, and acting, for the greater good of the game."
Take away the words "in bowling" and "of the game"
It is time people stop thinking in shallow selfish ways, and start thinking, and acting, for the greater good.
Since there is in no way possible this will happen in humanity the chances "bowlers" will follow suit is laughable. The game is losing bowlers at a larger rate because of:
1. The economy
2. The lack of growth and new bowlers to the game.
The first problem can't be fixed, the second problem can be addressed. It is very unlikely unless bowling centers take the initiative to make this happen.
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So I guess the answer to number 2 is to put out the easiest shot imaginable and tell the youth bowlers (the future of the sport) to suck it up and just bowl. Forget the fact you bowl on harder conditions as a youth, this is ADULT bowling now.
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While golf and bowling often draw comparisons, the fundamental difficulty of golf to the average recreational player cannot be minized by widening fairways or moving up tee boxes. A large portion of people who give up golf cite the frustrating difficulty of the game as at least one of the decisions to quit.
I have said this on these boards many times. Bowlers don't quit because they score too high, but some quit because the other guys scores too high. Most of the complaining about high scores is sour grapes.
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While golf and bowling often draw comparisons, the fundamental difficulty of golf to the average recreational player cannot be minized by widening fairways or moving up tee boxes. A large portion of people who give up golf cite the frustrating difficulty of the game as at least one of the decisions to quit.
I have said this on these boards many times. Bowlers don't quit because they score too high, but some quit because the other guys scores too high. Most of the complaining about high scores is sour grapes.
We'll disagree avabob but since you have not defined recreational bowler to recreation golfer.....I will. I'd say someone that is shooting from low 80's to 100 is the recreational golfer....these kinds of players are probably not going to give up the game because of difficulty. Above 100 yes I would agree they may give up over time as they see no improvement nor do they wish to work at the game. I see many more golfers at a driving range than recreational bowlers practising at the lanes.
Another side issue that if Playing The Rules of Golf or as close as one can get to the playing the rules is more a game of self honor. Bowling is played by more specific rules and has same grey areas but not anywhere near the grey areas of golf. Most golfers do not know the rules verbatim but most I know do try to play within the rules boundaries.
How many bowling websites exist like this one? http://www.playgolfamerica.com/index.cfm?action=teeitforward
I say people quit both games because of amount of $$$ they have to spend on a recreational activity not because of difficulty. Also, because of society values which is the non-ability to make a long term commitment to a league season hence shorter length bowling leagues. The non-ability to concentrate more than 90 mins. hence 3 man teams.
Just my take.
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Right from bowl.com about the RED PATTERN or "THS".
While all three patterns (Red, White and Blue) are “house†shots, they provide a variable range of difficulty. USBC Red pattern is designed to provide the greatest amount of forgiveness and be typical of conditions found in most bowling centers today. Of the three patterns, the Red pattern will yield the highest scoring pace for a typical USBC member.
With a much higher concentration of oil in the middle of the lane, the Red pattern allows bowlers to find more oil inside of target and more dry boards outside of target, often resulting in pocket strikes while missing the intended target line. This “typical house pattern†is the least challenging of the three.
A center's standard house shot/condition is considered the Red pattern. Additionally, all house patterns that are not Blue or White are considered Red by default. Therefore, there are no lane machine numbers posted for Red patterns.
As USBC States. This pattern will often produce strikes while missing the intended target line. Is that what you want in competition? A person who can miss and throw a ball poorly still gets rewarded? You make a bad swing in golf, you make a bad throw in darts, or a bad toss in corn hole, you are penalized. When so many state on here that it allows for many different styles to compete, that should not include POOR and TERRIBLE Styles.
Now let's look at the BLUE.
USBC Blue pattern is designed to provide the greatest level of challenge as the application of oil is crowned the least of all three (although still more than Sport Bowling). Of the three patterns, the Blue pattern will yield the lowest scoring pace.
As with the Red and the White pattern, the Blue pattern is also offered in three different versions to meet the needs of different centers with a variety of lane surfaces and other factors. Blue patterns may be typical of something you would see at a State tournament and provide a nice stepping stone up to Sport conditions used in the Open Championships or local Team USA Experience leagues.
BLUE is still considered a THS (not labeled as SPORT Pattern). Think about it. If more leagues used this type of pattern it might get more bowlers to venture out and compete. Keeping the competitive side of bowling alive.
I am sure most bowlers would much rather go to state bowling tournament knowing their average is a little bit more true to their abilities instead of an over inflated average which keeps them at home.
I heard it all this year at PA state tournament. Guys vowing never to return if that patttern was used again. It was challenging, it wasn't over difficult, you just had to execute and be precise. There was some room for error, just not 10 boards.
If you want a fun league, then bowl on the wall. Your achievements and accomplishments are noted. Congratulations! You mastered the bunny course! How about taking the next step and bowl in the real world.
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BLUE is still considered a THS (not labeled as SPORT Pattern). Think about it. If more leagues used this type of pattern it might get more bowlers to venture out and compete. Keeping the competitive side of bowling alive.
I am sure most bowlers would much rather go to state bowling tournament knowing their average is a little bit more true to their abilities instead of an over inflated average which keeps them at home.
I heard it all this year at PA state tournament. Guys vowing never to return if that patttern was used again. It was challenging, it wasn't over difficult, you just had to execute and be precise. There was some room for error, just not 10 boards.
If you want a fun league, then bowl on the wall. Your achievements and accomplishments are noted. Congratulations! You mastered the bunny course! How about taking the next step and bowl in the real world.
Couldn''t agree more....over inflated averages and bowlers with poor technique and lazy because of the house shot we are nurtured on week after week. For those highly skilled bowlers fine bowl your difficult sport patterns. For the rest of us a White or Blue can hone your skills slightly and allow a more true sense of what bowling should be as a game. It's not that hard and allows more players to use different equipment from different angles. Huge difference between difficult sport patterns and White/Blue.
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I'd love it if leagues were a 4:1 ratio, and that were the standard.
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Low 80s to 100 is a pretty broad range. I am a low 80s player and I agree that the course can make quite a bit of differen to me, although it is primarily a distance issue. I play regularly with a guy who is a high 90's player, and the golf course has little impact on the shanks worm burners and banana slices that are a major part of his, and most 20 handicap players games.
I think there are legitimate comparisons to be made between bowling and golf, but I agree that the comparison groups are often wrong. Statistically the average for mens league bowlers is around 170. Most 170 men on a THS aren't going to be impacted a lot by lane conditions. Not sure what a median score is for golfers. Those who carry a handicap is too narrow a base, because a lot of once a week golfers don't even have handicaps. I think I saw once that only 10% of men ever break 90, but I could be wrong. In any event those quitting golf are typically people with very little developed skill. I think bowling is much easier to get to become moderately good at, but very difficult to excell at ( 200+ on a broad range of tournament patterns ). Golf is exceedingly difficult to learn for most people. Many parts of the swing are more counter intuitive than a good bowling release. For thos who perservere and start to approach single digit handicaps, it is a matter of how much time and effort you are willing to put in to get better. The limiting factor quickly becomes putting and the short game.
To me 210 average league bowlers on a house shot are very comparable to guys with a decent golf swing who can drive the ball close to 300 yards.
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I believe the average Male handicap in golf (for players with handicaps) is around 15.
The biggest issue with the THS is allowing so many strikes to be thrown that spare shooting is minimalized.
But in the end the player who executes best over the long haul comes out on top. There will be the nights when the carry simply isn't there and the bowler will miss so many spares they will crash and burn.
I'm a typical house hack that averages high on THS. Higher than some with a similar strike game because I do pick up most of my spares.
I struggle on sport shots. No sure why, but I suspect I bowl them so seldom and I don't have any equipment setup for it and I don't recognize the transitions.
Easy shots were not an issue until the modern balls gave such high carry percentages.
Around here most sport shot leagues are dead. Only short season ones have survived.
The biggest issue with bowling today is that people (society) does not want to commit to the league format, bowling weekly for 30+ weeks.
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There is no answer. You know where the easy houses are and the tougher houses. Be an adult and pick one, or several and go bowl. No matter the condition you will always have parts of your game that will need improving and can be done on a variety of conditions. Or better yet, down grade your equipment to make the shot harder. There are many options for bowlers to take but their ego wont let them.
So I guess the answer to number 2 is to put out the easiest shot imaginable and tell the youth bowlers (the future of the sport) to suck it up and just bowl. Forget the fact you bowl on harder conditions as a youth, this is ADULT bowling now.
While golf and bowling often draw comparisons, the fundamental difficulty of golf to the average recreational player cannot be minized by widening fairways or moving up tee boxes. A large portion of people who give up golf cite the frustrating difficulty of the game as at least one of the decisions to quit.
I have said this on these boards many times. Bowlers don't quit because they score too high, but some quit because the other guys scores too high. Most of the complaining about high scores is sour grapes.
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I don't think it is difficult to convince bowlers on this site the benefits of sport leagues or the demise of competitive bowling. The issue is convincing the rest of the bowlers of the same thing.
I'm not saying no one has tried to make changes, but until I hear of a league demanding more difficult shots, this is all hot air. And even when they do, the sandbagging discussion starts. Damned if you do, damned if you don't!!
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The real problem is the bowlers and ungodly amount of handicap. THS is designed to cover flaws, and bowlers want THS to cover THEIR flaws. Sport patterns are designed to expose flaws. If you force bowlers to hit a spot on the lane and not an area, their would be no bowling. People want to be able to hook the ball like the pros they see on tv or just have fun throw the ball. If you take that fun away from them, they're going to spend their money elsewhere.
The handicap aspect is that 10% of 230 gives sand bagger the opportunity to rack up. Guy who can bag for 190 gets 35+/- pins, he shoots 250 (285) and racking pots. My thought is to big is down to 90% of 200 and make people step up.
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The handicap aspect is that 10% of 230 gives sand bagger the opportunity to rack up. Guy who can bag for 190 gets 35+/- pins, he shoots 250 (285) and racking pots. My thought is to big is down to 90% of 200 and make people step up.
Your solution is flawed. You might take care of that small group of baggers or those in the 190 range (as you stated), but you just eliminated everybody with an average under 190. If you did get them in, they would be gone after one year of bowling. They have no chance to compete.
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I don't think we need to convince anyone who doesn't want to play on sport patterns. What we need to do is convince proprietors to make sport patterns more available to the serious bowlers so they can hone their skills.
Competitve bowling has never been a short term profit center for proprietors, and it is necessary to educate them that slightly more catering to scratch players than the short term income statement would warrant will benefit them in the long run.
As for THS vs flatter patterns, here are a couple of points. House patterns allow bowlers to focus on carry more than playing multiple angles and other adjustments that are necessary on flatter patterns. Most players who bowl a lot on tournament patterns willingly give up some power to achieve versatility. Not unlike golf where big hitting PGA rookies usually learn to give up distance to shape shots better and play the course as they become more adept at the pro game.
Also, the flatter the pattern the more the buff length becomes a factor. On a THS the bowler controls the breakpoint that best matches his roll by controlling where he comes out of the oil on the way down the lane. On a flatter pattern you must match your roll to where it comes off the end of the oil patterns because you can't control the breakpoint by increading out angle or alternatvely hugging an oil line.
When I go into a tournament the only 2 things I look at are the buff length and the amount of reverse oil. Lateral ratios or the graph are usually very misleading, making the shot appear easier outside of second arrow than it really is
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Actually I don't really disagree with Bosco, although it wasn't the main point of my post. I think house could migrate to a white or even blue pattern for most of their leagues with no impact on attrition. Most of the mixed leagues and seniors wouldn't notice much difference. In fact many would bowl better on a longer flatter pattern as wet dry is the enemy of slower ball speed whether it is a top hat or screeming back ends.
High average house players would adopt very quickly to less of a top hat. In fact many of them would also bowl better on a crown of say 4 or 5 to one. Most of best seniors score higher on the Cheetah than on a house shot.
When people compare bowling to golf, you must compare apples to apples. The vast majority of people who call themsleves regular golfers have never had a USGA handicap or played in a tournament outside of a company social thing. We don't call people bowlers unless they bowl in a league even if they regularly bowl cosmic or other non organized venues.
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The handicap aspect is that 10% of 230 gives sand bagger the opportunity to rack up. Guy who can bag for 190 gets 35+/- pins, he shoots 250 (285) and racking pots. My thought is to big is down to 90% of 200 and make people step up.
Your solution is flawed. You might take care of that small group of baggers or those in the 190 range (as you stated), but you just eliminated everybody with an average under 190. If you did get them in, they would be gone after one year of bowling. They have no chance to compete.
Lol! True, moreso speaking from my ideas. Wasnt being serious.
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If you want a fun league, then bowl on the wall. Your achievements and accomplishments are noted. Congratulations! You mastered the bunny course! How about taking the next step and bowl in the real world.
I love this. I wonder how big a step we would take towards getting all these house hacks to bowl on a sport or even a sport-like (the blue pattern?) if
we started calling house oil patterns a very derogatory and condescending name, like skiing's "The Bunny Slope".
"You averaged 215 on the 'bunny slope'!!
Hysterical! and possibly effective.
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Hmm... . The THS, doesn't really seem to be the problem. It seems to be the people bragging about scoring that really bugs a lot of players.
(from a sociological point of view, of course)
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Actually I don't really disagree with Bosco, although it wasn't the main point of my post. I think house could migrate to a white or even blue pattern for most of their leagues with no impact on attrition. Most of the mixed leagues and seniors wouldn't notice much difference. In fact many would bowl better on a longer flatter pattern as wet dry is the enemy of slower ball speed whether it is a top hat or screaming back ends.
High average house players would adopt very quickly to less of a top hat. In fact many of them would also bowl better on a crown of say 4 or 5 to one. Most of best seniors score higher on the Cheetah than on a house shot.
That is exactly right avabob. Wet/dry blocked lanes hurts way more league bowlers than it helps. It makes trying to pick up spares, which is the backbone of the lower average bowlers score, become unpredictable and actually more difficult to make.
ambi1 is correct in that "the typical house shot doesn't really seem to be the problem". But its not the bragging about scoring that is the problem either.
The typical house shot is a symptom to the real problem. And that problem is unpredictable ball reaction by playing on lanes that have been neglected and using balls that are too hard to control.
Even though the typical house shot (blocked oil pattern) does hurt the 140-170 average player because of spares, it is the only way for anyone using modern equipment with a little side rotation to have any resemblance of predictability. Which is key to enjoying the game of bowling.
High scores are only a symptom, and a byproduct, to the real problems in this current form of bowling. Sport Bowling, or flatter patterns, are nothing more than another band aid on an already heavily bleeding game.
Sure we can go to 4 or 5 to 1 ratio pattern across the board, but then it will become a game of who can make that pattern 8 to 1 the fastest. Might as well just leave it at 8 to 1 to start.
OR....dare someone suggest it on these boards, fix the real problems in the game. Hint: it ain't the oil patterns.
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Hmm... . The THS, doesn't really seem to be the problem. It seems to be the people bragging about scoring that really bugs a lot of players.
(from a sociological point of view, of course)
This is funny because its exactly how I feel. Whenever I get asked what my avg. is it makes me feel uncomfortable to say 224 because I know full well that its just the accurate or impressive because I have built that up bowling on a house shot. I'm def going to use the "bunny slope" comparison on my buddies that think they are just the "IT" of bowling in particular some 2 fingered, no thumb jokesters that have no business avg above 190.
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Every so often someone comes on here and starts a thread about the THS, and how bad it is for bowling. Usually they cite integrity, unrealistic scoring, and and guys spraying the ball all over the lane who shoot award scores.
Frankly I don't think any of the reasons usually cited for why THS is bad have much validity. I hear top level scratch bowlers complaining about a house hack shooting 300, and it sounds like sour grapes to me. Can you imagine a top level PGA pro complaining because an amatuer shoots 66 on a 6200 yard muni? Bowlers know what they are playing on.
Definitely agree on that point. Until the last year or so I was one of the THS naysayers who always complained when others would out score me or average much higher than I did, rationalizing that the shot was so easy that it was what made these bowlers score better than me not that I was maybe not as good as they were at reading the shot and replicating good shots. But then on the weeks I did put up a big set, I would tend to downplay the THS benefit and think it was my good bowling that resulted in my good series.
In the last couple of years I dumped this THS attitude and decided to go about improving my game so I could hang with the big boys on the THS. I improved my average and overall game to the point that I have done much better in other tournaments that don't put out the THS.
So, in my opinion and experience, the majority of the THS complainers are not PBA level bowlers who want to level the field so they can display their skills over regular league bowlers but are regular league bowlers who cannot average 230+ on the THS like some guys are able to do and then use the excuse that it is the THS that is making those bowlers and if they were on a sport shot they would beat them more often than not. I can say this because I was one of those complainers.
So, my advice to those who are always complaining about the THS being too easy and killing the game to go out and practice and get better so you can average 230+ because I would venture to say that you will also increase your sport shot average as well.
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Let's take the Golf Comparison again. Two golfers, play the same course. One hits from the gold tees (7000 plus yards, rating/slope = 74.4/137), and one hits from the red tees (4800 yards, rating/slope = 68.8/122).
Both shoot a 72. Which game impresses you the most? Are they both equal in accomplishment? Should they be treated as the same?
Same thing with THS versus more challenging patterns. They are not the same. It doesn't matter you can average 240, 200, or 180 on a THS. To me bowling on this pattern means nothing in ability especially when it takes out one of the key elements required in bowling. That key element being "Accuracy!". It just doesn't work.
All you can state is you bowl great on the easiest shot in bowling. That's it. It cannot be compared to anything else.
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What you need to ask yourself is "why does that bother you so much"? It shouldn't yet it just seems to eat you alive.
Let's take the Golf Comparison again. Two golfers, play the same course. One hits from the gold tees (7000 plus yards, rating/slope = 74.4/137), and one hits from the red tees (4800 yards, rating/slope = 68.8/122).
Both shoot a 72. Which game impresses you the most? Are they both equal in accomplishment? Should they be treated as the same?
Same thing with THS versus more challenging patterns. They are not the same. It doesn't matter you can average 240, 200, or 180 on a THS. To me bowling on this pattern means nothing in ability especially when it takes out one of the key elements required in bowling. That key element being "Accuracy!". It just doesn't work.
All you can state is you bowl great on the easiest shot in bowling. That's it. It cannot be compared to anything else.
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The real problem with the house shot is inconsistency. Recently I bought an AMF summer pass. I had only been bowling about 2 or 3 games a month and thought it might be a good way to get back in shape. Well the center I was bowling at has been known as the toughest in DFW. It got shut down the first week in August. I had to finish my pass at AMF Euless as it is the closest. I had only bowled 1 game at Euless in a year and that was a demonstration with a house ball. So I went to Euless and got a lane and asked one question. When I got to the lane I stretched out and threw my 2 games. 244 and 290. Last game stone 9, picked it up and off the sheet. That would never happen at AMF Irving! For that matter anywhere else. If you average 210 at Irving you are tough at Euless it needs to be 230. I have heard there is a 20 pin difference between AMF Richardson and Plano Superbowl. Some places are stupidly easy. Some are stupidly tough and rest are all over the place. So is a 230 average bowler at an easy house as good as a 200 average bowler at a tough center. Are they comparable. How can some one average 230 at on center consistently and 200 at another?
Smash49
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What you need to ask yourself is "why does that bother you so much"? It shouldn't yet it just seems to eat you alive.
I was wondering when you would show up to the party. Welcome.
It doesn't bother me as much as you think. I am entitle to opinion.
What some fail to realize is the THS is the root of some the biggest problems in league bowling today. What are the two biggest complaints we hear all the time?
Handicap and Sandbagging.
You make the shot more challenging and you eliminate these two issues.
Handicap issues go away because now you don't get those inflated scores across the board (This goes with Low and High Average Bowlers).
Now since the shot is more challenging those that sandbag are going to find it more difficult to pour it on when needed. They will really need to let their average slip big time to make a difference, because strikes won't be as easy to get.
Added bonus: Averages becomes a better representation to one's ability. You then find more bowlers willing compete outside their home center. It gives many bowlers confidence to compete in tournaments. Right now plenty of bowlers go home from state and local tournaments wondering if they will go again next year. Knowing that their home center average is too high and they can't compete.
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In my opinion, these is an issue that people on this board know about but do not seem to address.
If you toughen lane conditions, some % of bowlers will quit because they cannot average what they average now. Cannot strike enough etc. This will take $ from the owners of the lanes. Some lanes may close.
But I know. It's not your money, and it seems from a lot of comments on this board, that because "you" cannot get the respect that "you" feel "you" deserve, that something should be done.
I am fairly certain, that most bowling centers are in business for one reason and one reason only; to make a profit. And having high scoring conditions, like it or not, probably increases those profits.
Yes, it does not help the integrity of the game, or allow one person to really measure themselves against another via average.
If you want to know if you are better than someone else. Bowl against them on a variety of lane patterns and whoever scores the best is better. Otherwise, you are just taking an educated guess. Within a 20 pin average differential, anyone can probably beat someone else on a given day. Or even a given week.
This all still seems to me to boil down to bowlers with egos who have trouble losing to someone they perceive having less talent.
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Here is a case in point about the proprietor of a 40 lane 16 year old house where I bowl mainly (2 leagues).
Proprietor bowls one full-time 5-man league on the wet/dry house shot. 39', 19ml, not much outside 7-8, poor length wise taper too much in back of pattern Kegel Offense on 16 yr. old 1st Generation Bruns Proanvilane. Proprietor is a good 205 to 215 ave. bowler been bowling for 30+ years. Ave. 198 in that 5-man league shot 703 best scratch series. I bowl in this league and see it personally.
Compare to when he went to City tourney (USBC White #2) and shot mid 700's and WI State (USBC Blue not sure which one) where he shot way above what he can shoot in league on the wet/dry wall.
My point being that here is a guy who decides on the house condition and can play harder patterns better because he is allowed to play different angles than when he is forced inside where his scoring is diminished. Proprietors could put out a USBC White pattern and not effect scoring of wet/dry bowlers....in fact they would help them by allowing them to play various angles and lines.
Proprietors are stuck with their wet/dry house shots cuz they don't know any difference. Don't want to put in the time to learn nor the effort to make it more playable for everyone and allow the house bowler to understand that this can be fun and proprietor would keep more happy and keep his bowlers. I say bowlers quit because they hate wet/dry house shots and get complacent. Again why golf is fun it's the few good shots you hit in a round that keep golfers coming back.
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It's not about forcing change, its about promoting it. Most of us on here see the benefits of challenging oil patterns. We know bowling on them makes you a better bowler. They also provide a challenge reward for good shot making. That's a great thing! Why not promote it!
My opinion about THS, Enjoy it! Have Fun. Keep the bowlers coming in. I bowl in leagues with THS. I don't sit there and moan when I get beat. I give proper congrats. It's whoever has the highest score at the end. We bowled on the same pattern. My opponent has no more of an advantage than me. I stay just as focused on THS shot as I do on other patterns. I am there to win, I play to win.
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I bowled in a league this summer that rotated between red white and blue patterns througout the league. The white pattern was almost unplayable for most bowlers on older synthetics. The only bowlers who did well on the blue pattern were those with very little hand or those with higher than average speed. The short pattern just made just about everything overreact on the backend on the white pattern. The blue pattern was rather opposite. Most of the better bowlers were bowling better than on red.
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I bowled in a league this summer that rotated between red white and blue patterns througout the league. The white pattern was almost unplayable for most bowlers on older synthetics. The only bowlers who did well on the blue pattern were those with very little hand or those with higher than average speed. The short pattern just made just about everything overreact on the backend on the white pattern. The blue pattern was rather opposite. Most of the better bowlers were bowling better than on red.
There are 3 patterns of each Red, White and Blue of varying lengths, volume and a library of how to set up for each machine. If the lane topography is not correct for the #1, #2 or #3 R/W/B then bowlers will find it more difficult. Proprietors again have to put forth the effort to get the correct number R/W/B for their specific lane topography and climate of their house. Plus get their lane conditioning machine in good working order. I tend to think poor lane maintenance is usually the largest issue.
It takes a learning curve. Now you have to work with your ball speed, release, ball surfaces and layouts to match up the best. But, I have not found any of the R/W/B patterns unscoreable and much easier than the majority of sport patterns.
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Personally, I think it comes down to wanting to challenge yourself.
I could bowl completely the same and one week I'd shoot 800, next week 680, the following week 720, and then 660 not changing a thing on a house shot. A house shot is just about maximizing carry, it's a different "type" of bowling. You always try to maximize carry on sports shots, but there are a lot of other things going on with a sport shot, but on a house shot carry is usually the only factor.
I saw a great case of that this week. We had a gentleman bowl on the same shot, with the same ball, and on the same pair. On Monday he shoots 785 but on Thursday he shoot 599.
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So here is a good example of what is wrong with house shots.
I have not bowled 1 game since April.... i bowled 2 games tonight since league starts up Weds..
Without any warm up shots I bowl games of 213 and 247....
So does this mean I am ready for the PBA Tour???? ::)
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YES!! Go for IT!!!
So here is a good example of what is wrong with house shots.
I have not bowled 1 game since April.... i bowled 2 games tonight since league starts up Weds..
Without any warm up shots I bowl games of 213 and 247....
So does this mean I am ready for the PBA Tour???? ::)
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No, it means you averaged 230 for the two games. A PBA bowler would average well above this on a house shot, so there is no comparison there.
If only people would realize that a THS inflates scoring for EVERY type of bowler, even the ones who claim to be sport shot pros.
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I bowled in a league this summer that rotated between red white and blue patterns througout the league. The white pattern was almost unplayable for most bowlers on older synthetics. The only bowlers who did well on the blue pattern were those with very little hand or those with higher than average speed. The short pattern just made just about everything overreact on the backend on the white pattern. The blue pattern was rather opposite. Most of the better bowlers were bowling better than on red.
There are 3 patterns of each Red, White and Blue of varying lengths, volume and a library of how to set up for each machine. If the lane topography is not correct for the #1, #2 or #3 R/W/B then bowlers will find it more difficult. Proprietors again have to put forth the effort to get the correct number R/W/B for their specific lane topography and climate of their house. Plus get their lane conditioning machine in good working order. I tend to think poor lane maintenance is usually the largest issue.
It takes a learning curve. Now you have to work with your ball speed, release, ball surfaces and layouts to match up the best. But, I have not found any of the R/W/B patterns unscoreable and much easier than the majority of sport patterns.
We bowled on white number 1 and 3 and blue number 1 and 3. By far the two white ones were the most difficult for the league overall. The 3 was slightly more playable than 1. According the the webite, blue should be harder, but overall, the scores were higher for blue. The amount of friction on clean backends seemed to dictate the ball motion on both white patterns. While blue pattern had less area to play, it was by far easier to get to the pocket and stay there.
I don't know when these patterns were designed if they were designed with new synthetics in mind or not. I had a chance to bowl white number 1 on some newer AMF synthetics and it played much more how I would have expected.
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No, it means you averaged 230 for the two games. A PBA bowler would average well above this on a house shot, so there is no comparison there.
If only people would realize that a THS inflates scoring for EVERY type of bowler, even the ones who claim to be sport shot pros.
lol, yes i know the difference between a THS and a PBAX shot.. i was just being a smart a-hole lol..
But it just made me giggle that i went to bowl a couple games cold and to someone who doesnt know any better they would think they are bowling really well.....
I have always been one for more honest lane conditions to separate the joes from the pro's ...
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DJarum
If my memory is right the White 1 pattern is a lighter volume and shortest?? and tends to play very wet-dry, and gets very crazy when the lanes get some games on them..
I've bowled on the White 1 pattern and my first three games i think i was right around a 190 avg... but my second 3 games i shot something like 750 lol.... but the last three games it was basically a carry contest in said tournament.. only because you had a bump area to the right..
Now the two blue patterns i've played on was fun!!
the first time, i believe it was the Blue 1, which is just like the White 1.. and my games played out very similar lol.. first 3 games i was right around a 180 average...but the second 3 games, i shoot well over 700...
but the pattern became very wet / dry and had bump room to the right..
the second time i played on the blue pattern i think it was the longer pattern cuz it played more like the SHark.....
anything right of 11 missed the pocket... but once the lanes broke down you had to get really deep cuz everything was checking up early...
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Let me add my .02 to this topic:
On the golf vs. bowling comparisons - the one thing I fail to see mentioned is the fact that it takes a lot of practice to improve one's golf game a few strokes. While on a THS pattern it takes zero practice to improve one's average a few pins. People bowling one night a week on an easy THS will see an improved average over the prior year, usually. This alone should show us that the lane conditions are too easy. It has nothing to do with lower average bowlers beating higher average bowlers, it has to do with the fact that people who put zero effort in to improve their games, see improvement based soley on how easy the shot is.....that is just wrong.
On the better bowlers averaging higher on THS - while this is true, the easy THS allows the gap between the better bowlers and the lower average bowlers to shrink. The better bowlers develop their games to score on tougher shots. One of the things that makes the shots tougher is usually higher volumes of oil. I have personally seen, and have had happen to me, a higher average bowler who hits his mark more consistently have problems because the lower volumes of oil on a THS don't reward being consistent. The shot breaks down faster cause you are hitting the same spot over and over causing balls to overreact with little or no warning. It causes the better bowlers to make more adjustments (different lines, different balls) than a lower average bowler spraying the ball across a 10 board area. And some nights that means losing carry for the higher average bowlers. The problem with a THS is that it not only rewards the wrong behaviors, it hinders or even handicaps the right behaviors.
Bowling is a business, and I know why centers put out the easier THS shots. They want the most bowlers to come to their center and the majority of the bowling world wants to be able to average 210 without practicing and bowling once a week. The centers do not want to lose bowlers, leagues to other centers because they put out a tougher shot. Just like people are asking the bowling ball manufacturers to ban together and fight against the PBA fees, if all the bowling centers in an area (or the BPAA for that matter) got together and said we are going to put out the USBC White or USBC Blue patterns and get away from this too easy THS, maybe we could make a difference. If people still quit then, then that's on them and it shows how spoiled they really are.
And lastly, I keep hearing people say THS isn't the problem, but no one has spelled out exactly what the problem is then. If it isn't THS, what IS really the problem? Is it the fact that bowlers are worse than spoiled little brats who want their high scores week in and week out without ever having to practice or improve? Is it the fact that bowlers egos are so big they can't fathom they might not actually be as good as their THS average suggests? Please tell me, I am waiting to hear.
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The real problem with house shots is not the patterns but the HEADCASES that want to make it a problem!!!
Comparing golf scores to bowling scores lol - apples to oranges - can' t be done.
Hitting a little white ball verses rolling a ball down a lane, of course it is easy in comparison. The real problem is HEADCASES!!! The gap between bowlers, who's fault is that, the pattern - not! The problem is HEADCASES!!! In a 1 game match, anyone can beat anyone. But if a HEADCASE gets beat in a series or block of games, who's fault is that, the pattern? NOT! Fault goes to, you guessed it the HEADCASE. Why you ask, he didn't adjust, he didn't change 1 of the 6 balls he carried in! Or maybe he is just a HEADCASE! The real problem is HEADCASES!!! How often do they practice - get a coach or lesson - try something different? That's right they didn't - they are HEADCASES!!! That's why the gap closes!
Talking about bowling on tougher patterns, the HEADCASES won't. Look around Sport Leagues - Sport Tournaments - no support!!
Bowling is a business and House Shots are a good business decision. Plan and simple!
For those of us that want Sport Patterns to compete on, there is plenty out there to bowl on - we just need to support it! The HEADCASES won't . The percent of good bowlers is about 1-2 percent of bowlers. House shots = good business decision!
Egos and brats = HEADCASES you nailed it! Egos are fueled by there HEADS not the patterns, ie HEADCASES! Shot 250 and win, there great, shot 150 and loose it's the pattern. Typical HEADCASE- THC lol. That's the problem TYPICAL HEADCASE = THC
Now there is a problem in bowling and that is the lack of bowlers. How I see it is the lack of MARKETING. You can't put out a schedule and flyer and hope they show up- but that's another forum.
Once again the problem is TYPICAL HEADCASES THC not House Shots
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SMS11 and Jorge,
I've said this for a long time.... If someone advertised for a "league" or for their "house" and gave incentives like bowl a 300 and you get 300$ or throw a 800 and you get the dollar amount of your score..
And make the prize fund worth something....
then you can get away from the easy house shots... and put out a sport shot or w/e house shot that is not a house shot and call it good....
why?? because the places that are pumping out 300's every night can't offer the same deal...
Also , get some sponsor's to pump up the prize fund for the leagues....
the lone scratch league that I am bowling on has a 4000$ first place prize.. and the scratch league is 8 teams of 3 people.. we bowl 4 games and the cost is 20$ per week... I believe the last place team at the end of the year will get something like 800$ divided 3 ways....
Oh and it is sponsored by Miller Lite....
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Wow - my new Beer of choice Miller Lite. Who went out and got the sponsor? The center? Great job! Also 300 every night were do you bowl?
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SMS11
I bowl in Grand Rapids, MI @ Wengers and I believe the owner got the sponsor.. and no they do not pump out 300's every night.. scoring there from what i've heard is hit or miss... And this is my first year bowling at said place.. So I will let you know how it's going once i have a few weeks of bowling in lol....
I say pumping out 300's every night, loosely about certain places that have pretty easy lane conditions.. could be in my area or in places outside of my area.. heck i think there is a place down in Indiana that pumps out 300's almost weekly.
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David,
We have a place like that here in Virginia. Our first night was this past Saturday. Already there was a 300, 299, and 298 bowled. The league is pretty big (five person team, 60 teams). I believe what keeps most coming back is the side action every week. A good night and a person could walk out with $1000-$2000.
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....All valid responses to the topic. I truly believe the problem is not with the THS, but the fact that there is still gambling involved. If you couldn't win jackpots every night no one would whine about how "tough" it was....You would just bowl....I am a firm believer that all competitive leagues should instill a mandatory jackpot format included in the weekly dues... three bracket divisions, based on averages....everyone has a chance to get lucky everynight... why would a 210 bowler want to lose everynight to a 240 guy...but if he is competing against people of his own Ilk...It makes it exciting for him to spend a few extra bucks....Bottom line....If there is no "USBC" Lane cops, that go from center to center everynight, and check conditions, there can never be tougher shots....It will always be a carry contest.
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Frostee,
back in 2003, the house i bowled in for reasons unknown, decided to put out a " super easy " shot... and the league I bowled in had 12 teams, there was another 12 team league, plus a 6 team league. And we use to get 5 to 6 brackets going. Which wasnt " huge " since it was usually the same guys getting into every bracket lol.. yea they probably could of run more brackets but, it would of probably just been the same 8 or so guys who usually got in them.. Well after about a month or so into the league, the same 2 guys seemed to always be taking 1st or 2nd... in every bracket.
While that wasnt the problem, it was the scoring issue... you had to shoot 250+ to even sniff a chance at beating them.. Both guys at the time was averaging around 250...
The stupid part was the owner even told these two guys, that they shouldnt get into all of the brackets... i guess he was getting flack from other bowlers about it lol... the two guys basically said F that it's our money and we can do what we want...
Well eventually nobody would get into the brackets anymore... Why??? because the lanes were too easy.... But when the lanes were " tougher " nobody had a issue with it, because if you bowled 200 to 220, you had a very good chance of winning your match..