Post by: Michael DeSantis on April 18, 2003, 09:10:11 PM
I use thumb inserts/slugs as well as finger inserts which have been fitted for me by a pro shop. The thumb feels comfortable in my equipment most of the time and I do not get any blisters or torn skin from a bad fit. Now, I have been told
that you should have a relaxed thumb when bowling. That the grip should be no more than if you were gently holding a bird. Ok then, but what I notice is that if I relax my thumb, I have a tendency to be inconsistent and weak on my release. On the other hand, if I grip a little with my thumb during the backswing and into the beginning of my forward swing, and then release that grip of the thumb and transfer into the fingers, I get a stronger and more consistent release and a better shot down the lane. Obviously, I cannot grip the ball with the thumb coming through the shot. Also, I don't have the ball falling off my thumb during the shot. It's the subtle difference between these two extremes that seems to make or break me out there.
Now, when I keep the thumb "relaxed", I will sometimes actually get hung up with the knuckle portion of my thumb hitting against the inside of the thumbhole, resulting in a poor shot. Even if I don't hang up, my hand positon, timing and location seem to be much more inconsistent than when I have just a little more grip with the thumb in the ball. I also notice, this extra and longer gripping of the thumb before transfer to the fingers seems to increase my ball speed and projection, and I seem to have fewer 7-pin leaves as a result.
Does my explanation here make sense or am I just making a wrong method work right for me?
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"Chopping Wood For over Two Decades"
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 19, 2003, 12:18:27 PM
Post by: T-GOD on April 19, 2003, 01:25:57 PM
The key is to minimize the squeeze and be able to release the ball whenever you want, smoothly. If you don't squeeze the ball, the ball will be controlling you and your timing and delivery must be perfect. This is not possible for very long, if at all.
So, don't worry about squeezing the ball, just try to keep it to a minimum, using tape to control the size of your hole. =:^D
Post by: baiki on April 19, 2003, 06:34:13 PM
Armswing speed could be a factor too. Usually too slow for the fingers to catch the ball when a relaxed thumb leaves the ball.
baiki
Post by: 10 In The Pit on April 20, 2003, 12:24:16 AM
Today, I've toned down the backswing considerably, but my stiff thumb requires a lot of reverse. I guess that the extra reverse is a two edged sword, since I now get a much cleaner release, but I also feel more need to squeeze the thumb during part of the swing. The big key I've found is what T-GOD mentioned, where I relax the thumb at the precise point necessary to get a smooth and predictable release. I guess that I'm another that falls into the category of squeezers, although I do make a dedicated effort to relax the thumb at just the precise point. One drawback to this squeezing is that it requires a lot of muscle memory to repeat the release consistently.
To squeeze or not to squeeze.....that is the question. I almost think that there is no set answer, but it becomes more of a function of what works best for the individual.
Post by: charlest on April 20, 2003, 06:07:26 AM
From everyhting I remember reading (not being a driller), a stiff, read less flexible, thumb requires less back-pitch than a flexible thumb. My thumb, even at my age, is fairly flexible and I'm down to 1/8" back pitch and I wanted to go 0, but my driller suggested strongly that I reduce the back pitch in stages.
Mike DeS,
"Relaxing" in thumb pressure is relative to strength and to the human being throwing the ball. Piano players, chiropractors, and brick layers can really relax; people who do not do manual labor or do not lift weights (thus do not have greater than average hand strength), need to grip with whatever strength necessary; their concept of "relaxing" will be the same "feel"-wise, BUT may be very different measurement-wise.
This idea however must be tempered with a good fitting and properly pitched and shaped thumbhole for your hand design and flexbility. It's taken me years to get to that point.
The bowling world is not well known for accurate descriptions of such concepts. It uses far too many words dealing with "FEEL", with connotations rather than denotations. It can make proper understnding quite difficult.
Post by: CoachJim on April 20, 2003, 07:01:46 AM
quote:
Lately guys know I'm drilling balls at the little proshop in the back at home.
Having a lot of fun with it.
Top bowlers are coming up all the time with thumb problems and saying you know I go here but I've got this etc.
The number one thing I'm seeing from top bowlers are bruises or callouses under the base of the thumb and pain in this area!
Dangerous!
It appears the trends are to use less and less reverse pitch in the thumb or even to go forward. All with no understanding of how these pitches are suppossed to have some relationship to span.
Many people just want 0 forward/reverse pitch or maybe forward when maybe that is appropriate for their hand or maybe it isn't.
To compound the problem many are now saying I don't like Bevel, Norm Duke doesn't use bevel.
One top bowler around here tried 0 forward reverse for his shorter span and loved it. He loved it so much that he then went to 1/4 inch forward using a custom thumb. He now has a big bruise under his thumb, slight nerve damage, wears a patch there and may have to take a couple of weeks off.
Here are the basic concepts.
Bill Taylor created the following table. It is a great starting point.
It is based on 63 degrees of angle between the top of finger holes to thumb line and the thumb hole forward reverse angle.
Each increase of 1/8 inch of span increases reverse pitch 1/16, and each decrease of 1/8 inch of span decreases reverse pitch 1/16 of an inch.
For reference the table starts at 4 1/4 = 0 forward reverse pitch.
4 inch span = 1/16 forward pitch
4 1/4 span = 0 pitch
4 3/8 = 1/16 reverse
4 1/2= 1/8 reverse
4 5/8 = 3/16 reverse
4 3/4 = 1/4 reverse
4 7/8 = 5/16 reverse
5 = 3/8 reverse
People with dry thumbs, short thumbs (shorter than 2 1/4), and dropping problems should probably go 1/8 forward from the tables.
People with wet thumbs, long thumbs (longer than 2 1/2), and hanging problems not caused by bevel usually should add 1/8 reverse to the tables.
For example I should use about 3/16 reverse at 4 11/16 but I tend to like 1/16 to 1/32 reverse only due to a shorter but very dry thumb that has no problem releasing fast!
Recently being aware of lots of thumb damage in my area I went to 0 with a custom thumb and did not increase the front thumb bevel. One game and already I started to develop a little ping under the thumb. Instantly I jumped on it and applied a light touch of extra front bevel to the front surface(ring finger test) and problem fixed.
One decreases Pitch every 16th of an inch while keeping the span the same it is like making the span 1/8 of an inch longer in feel. Your thumb has to stretch and make it around the lip of the thumb. THis point if left at the same sharpness as it was for a workable span pitch setup will be essentially pointier if left with the same bevel. Note you've decreased your thumb angle to less than 63degrees. Decrease reverse pitch, leave span the same = increase front bevel for safety.
Don't damage YOUR thumb, don't blindly go forward and damage those important nerves in the base of your thumb. Don't copy a PBA or local star they may have a much more relaxed span in relation to their hand than you do.
Pitch should not be viewed in a vacumm. It should be viewed in the context of your span, your tendancy with the ball, and bevel should not be copied either.
Your hand may have the need for lots of bevel or very little based on the amount of webbing you have between your index finger and thumb.
More web = exposed nerves = more bevel. Less web = nerves in hand not web area = less bevel.
Protect that gifted hand of yours.
Don't follow drilling trends blindly without knowing your hand and your proper span!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Luckylefty also made a post on pitches as well, this one is critical.
quote:
Coke bottle test which I've described earlier in this post and how to interpret the results determines lateral pitch.
1/8 out if thumb points at index finger
0 if pointing between index and middle
1/8 lateral under(right for righties) if at middle finger
1/4 between middle and ring
3/8 if thumb points at ring finger (3/8 right for righties)
Span should already be dialed in with your driller.
How I find span is about 5/16 short of last joint for both fingers when fingers stretched quite a bit.
Callus at top base of thumb is always bad. Indicates too long a span or inadequate front bevel in thumb.
Go to drilling forum here on this site all these areas have been covered recently(on the first page).
Lateral thumb pitch, span, and bevel.
Mike have your ball driller measure your hand and drill a ball according to these specs and see if this helps, it helped me.
Jim
Post by: Buzzhead on April 20, 2003, 07:38:12 AM
span is 4 1/8th to 4 1/4 so my reverse would be 0"
my thumb points more toward my middle finger so I would have 1/8" right, MY Exact thumb measurements.
Post by: CoachJim on April 20, 2003, 07:41:59 AM
This is why I like this site, everybody pulling together to help everyone, and having some fun along the way.
Post by: omegabowler on April 20, 2003, 08:37:04 AM
You normally grab with you entire hand and have been training your brain your whole life. This is were bowling becomes a sport. if you want to reach that next level you have to perform specific exercises to retrain your brain.
here how you tell grab your forearm with the opposite hand above the wrist. Now make a tight fist with your bowling hand. feel the forearm muscles. now relax your hand. squeeze with your bowling fingers but not your thumb, leave it relaxed. You will now see the 2 different muscles groups working.
I'm not a physician and some muscles may overlap. irregardless the concept applies. get a squeeze ball and practice this squeezing of the fingers with a limp thumb. over time you will feel it when you bowl. you arm swing will be less muscled and you get more revs. When I mastered this in the late 80's I had the revs of a cranker with the approach of a stroker.I could bowl 50 games and not feel it at all. I just didn't know what to do with it. That is another ball game all together.
Post by: Michael DeSantis on April 20, 2003, 08:48:47 AM
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"Chopping Wood For over Two Decades"
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 20, 2003, 11:05:31 AM
Some people will say with the proper span and thumb pitches, you won't have to "squeeze" the ball. I have probably spent $200 since the first of year changing my span, pitches, and etc. trying to get that perfect fit so I could stop "squeezing" the ball. With Lucky Lefty's help I accomplished to now having the most comfortable fit I have ever had in my 20 years of bowling. I can now let the ball hand at my side with arm and grip completely relaxed plus I can cock and uncock my wrist and the ball doesn't even think of slipping in my hand nor does it pressure my thumb and fingers anywhere. Yet, if I try to throw it this way I too, like Michael DeSantis will get hung once in awhile with the thumb knuckle against the back of ball, plus hang up or not the ball is weak, while again like Michael if I grip (squeeze) it some I will have a better release and stronger ball.....So, I agree with T-God that you have to squeeze somewhat. I just think one of the big keys is how you grip the ball in the thumb hole. Flat against the front with the underside of thumb or with thumbnail against the back of ball, or otherwise?
If anyone wants to read more on this thumb thing, go back to 3-9-03 under the Miscellaneous Column and look for the Post of "How do you grip the ball?" Magic Carpet also responded to that post.
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 20, 2003, 11:16:17 AM
Post by: charlest on April 20, 2003, 03:57:44 PM
Like Omega Bowler implies, do not use those tables as THE LAW. They are a GREAT starting point and are as accurate as anyone in bowling has ever drawn up. Like Mo Pinel, Bill Taylor ruffles too many feathers with his style, but both are right far too often for anyone in bowling to deny. The final point is that everyone's thumb and hand is different, based on strength and flexibility and probably more factors than I can remember. As such, the driller and the bowler should experiment to find the best combination of measurements, pitches and bevelling for that individual bowler.
I've almost harsassed my driller to get mine correct; and it can be annoying, but I am in pursuit of the Holy Grail of bowling for me, the correct thumb. Besides I've brought him a lot of business besides my own.
Post by: CoachJim on April 20, 2003, 08:42:28 PM
Most of us do not have access to someone who knows how to properly fit and drill a bowling ball. I live in the 2nd highest population of registered bowlers, and there is maybe 2 people in this town who can properly drill a bowling ball, and you had better catch them in a good mood, where they aren't in a hurry.
That is why I went to Las Vegas and had Jon Burroughs measure my hand. I have not had any hand problems or ball slippage since. I can't get any of the "ball drillers" I normaly use in my area to properly copy, much less measure and drill a ball for me.
Edited on 4/20/2003 8:56 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 20, 2003, 11:06:03 PM
Post by: 10 In The Pit on April 21, 2003, 01:46:25 AM
I am aware of some gripping during the most rearward portion of the backswing, but I relax as I start the forward portion of the swing. I guess that I'm not squeezing the ball nearly as much as I originally thought, or the top piece of tape wouldn't be as critical. As for the bevel, I do run some bevel on the thumb, and I have only a small callous at the base of the thumb (in the bevel area).
The more I read this post, the more intrigued I become.
Post by: CoachJim on April 21, 2003, 03:17:49 AM
quote:
Jim, if I didn't know better, I would swear you lived in my area. I have 6-7 Pro Shops available and they all drill like you described yours do.
Brickguy it is the same all over, it seems like there is many good proshop professionals in certain parts of the country, but a drought in others. All I can say is it takes a desire to be trained, and a wanting to learn more. Once you think you know everything there is to know, you need to move on and do something more challenging, instead of hating your job and driving away customers. If you ask some of these people, they will refute proven methods of Mo Pinel, and Bill Taylor, and act like they know better. It is very frustrating sometimes. I think it starts with not wanting the customer to come back and say I can't get my thumb out of the ball. The shop operator will then make the span too long, and put too much reverse pitch and a ton of bevel. If anybody is lucky enough to have a good ball driller, please make sure you are releasing the ball properly. It is the ball driller's responsibility to drill the ball properly, it is the bowler's responsibility to learn to bowl properly, other wise this problem arises.
Post by: MI 2 AZ on June 04, 2003, 07:13:14 PM