BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: bowler100 on November 02, 2021, 12:57:19 PM
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How could the PBA manipulate their oil patterns to make them less urethane friendly? Make them longer? Reduce the lengthwise taper? It is even possible to completely take urethane out of play? What are your thoughts?
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It is even possible to completely take urethane out of play?
Outside of all long patterns, no
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Put down a house shot. Or possibly like star said run something long where the outside sparks so it burns up and flood the middle so it just floats. You CAN make them pretty hard this way
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Let's just call a spade a spade here..
You'd like to see the return of Amleto dominating the tour again. ;)
Seriously, the thought of wanting to eliminate a certain ball technology on the tour says more about the lack of a bowler's ability to get out of their comfort zones and use what the lanes and conditions call for than the actual use of urethane on the lanes.
Honestly if that were the case, time needs to be spent figuring out how to use urethane and use it to one's advantage than trying to eliminate it because they don't know how to use it.
BL.
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Let's just call a spade a spade here..
You'd like to see the return of Amleto dominating the tour again. ;)
Seriously, the thought of wanting to eliminate a certain ball technology on the tour says more about the lack of a bowler's ability to get out of their comfort zones and use what the lanes and conditions call for than the actual use of urethane on the lanes.
Honestly if that were the case, time needs to be spent figuring out how to use urethane and use it to one's advantage than trying to eliminate it because they don't know how to use it.
BL.
I don't know if this comment is directed at me at all but I am actually a beneficiary of having urethane on heavier and flatter patterns. I was just wondering how they could satisfy the urethane haters who complain about urethane being used all of the time on tour.
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Let's just call a spade a spade here..
You'd like to see the return of Amleto dominating the tour again. ;)
Seriously, the thought of wanting to eliminate a certain ball technology on the tour says more about the lack of a bowler's ability to get out of their comfort zones and use what the lanes and conditions call for than the actual use of urethane on the lanes.
Honestly if that were the case, time needs to be spent figuring out how to use urethane and use it to one's advantage than trying to eliminate it because they don't know how to use it.
BL.
I don't know if this comment is directed at me at all but I am actually a beneficiary of having urethane on heavier and flatter patterns. I was just wondering how they could satisfy the urethane haters who complain about urethane being used all of the time on tour.
Not directed at you at all. It is directed at those who complain about urethane being used all the time. Those complainers are just more used to seeing eye candy and 45 lanes of room to hook a ball, not something smooth and consistent. They don't understand that consistency is what wins them tournaments, not being able to hook a ball 40 boards.
So instead of complaining about it, they need to figure out that facet of bowling, because that is what they lack in their game.
BL.
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If blasting a Grenade up 2nd arrow works, it works. Doesn't sell Rubicon UC2s, but makes Simo money ;D
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Boy I am sure getting old. 25 years ago it was urethane guys screaming about "cheater" resin balls because strokers like me could up our carry enough to compete with the cup wristers.
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Boy I am sure getting old. 25 years ago it was urethane guys screaming about "cheater" resin balls because strokers like me could up our carry enough to compete with the cup wristers.
Now everyone has over 450 rev rate and needs to control certain conditions better.
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I don't really have a problem with pros throwing them on TV, but there is still "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" despite what ball companies say. That leads to house guys with more hand than brains throwing these snow tires on house patterns and completely destroying the shot for the rest of us.
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I totally understand why. What really happened goes back a bit further. Urethane didn't really match up with long oil in the 80s. ABC however thought short oil would keep bowlers from using oil to steer the ball to the pocket. However the high rev cup wristed guys had learned how to exploit the unlimited swing area provided by walled up short oil. When short oil was abandoned at the end of the 80s the stage was set for a ball that would more effectively handle the carry down associated with urethane. Enter Steve Cooper with his resin enhanced urethane that effectively combated carry down. This was the characteristic of resin that most effectively helped carry.
The modern sport patterns make controlling the pocket more important than carry although the modern release has allowed power players to still carry pretty well with urethane.
Want to minimize urethane? Put out heavily crowned house shots where the pocket is easy and the carry advantage of resin again predominates
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Who cares if some people don't like urethane. I don't think most of the pros really care except for maybe Rash.😉
As for regular Joe and Jane Amateur league/sometimes tournament bowler. Their opinion really doesn't matter at all. If one bowler is so worried about another bowler throwing urethane the bowler doing the bitching are not nearly as good of a bowler as they think they are.😄
Seriously its no different than 20 years ago or whenever it was Reactive resin became the ball of choice, and a bunch of bowlers were all butt hurt their urethane balls were not working as well as they once did.🤣 Same song different dance.🤘🏼
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I bowled a tournament last weekend on a relatively flat, low scoring (cut was -9, strong field) 42' pattern that was pretty oily. The gutter was in play if you threw it well so there were some players using urethane off the gutter. I didn't notice the lanes transitioning much in qualifying but after a re-oil for match play, I followed someone who used urethane the previous match for 2 games and that pair was so much tighter down lane than anything I had seen all day that it made a huge difference in my ball reaction.
With that said, if someone wants to throw urethane, more power to them, you just need to adapt to what is in front of you, it just changes what the challenge is.
I do find it boring to watch telecasts where they all throw urethane though so from a popularity perspective, I think urethane is bad for the tour.
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The guys on tour are clearly using the equipment they think gives them the best chance on the condition. Half the viewers get bored on the tough shots where guys use urethane and the other half gets mad when scores go through the roof on a pattern that favors resin.
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I do find it boring to watch telecasts where they all throw urethane though so from a popularity perspective, I think urethane is bad for the tour.
Exactly. For the eye candy, Urethane isn't good, because everyone wants to see hook in a box and have that ball free wheel from 6th arrow out to 3 and come back. But everyone that is looking for that seems to forget the premise: Are the competitors in the tournament there to show off eye candy, or are they there to win?
If the former, it's no wonder why they would be bored with the likes of Jurek, McCune, or Traber winning a show. They're there to win, now show off how much a ball can hook... and if urethane helps them to win, more power to them.
BL.
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The answer to that lies on all the other equipment .... EVERYTHING HOOKS A TON now.
Monster cores, covers all add up to big entry angle -- and that adds up to about 170 on tougher conditions. If the bowling balls didnt all go sideways when they hit the friction it wouldn't be an issue.
I have quit trying to hook the ball in my recreational leagues. I stay up the back of it, play around 8 at the arrows and let the ball work for me. My average is up 15 pins approaching the 230 mark. There is something to be said for keeping it simple.
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Who cares if some people don't like urethane. I don't think most of the pros really care except for maybe Rash.😉
As for regular Joe and Jane Amateur league/sometimes tournament bowler. Their opinion really doesn't matter at all. If one bowler is so worried about another bowler throwing urethane the bowler doing the bitching are not nearly as good of a bowler as they think they are.😄
Seriously its no different than 20 years ago or whenever it was Reactive resin became the ball of choice, and a bunch of bowlers were all butt hurt their urethane balls were not working as well as they once did.🤣 Same song different dance.🤘🏼
Honestly, I dont think there are very many pros that really "like" urethane. But, at the end of the day, they have to use what is going to give them the best chance to win and push them because that is what the companies are releasing. Even though Rash has gone public with his disdain for it, I could see him throwing the UC3 at quite a few stops since that balls reacts like resin on the backend.
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We are approaching the 30th anniversary of the introduction of reactive resin, also known as "cheater balls" at the time. Life gets more humorous the older I get
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We are approaching the 39th anniversary of the introduction of reactive resin, also known as "cheater balls" at the time. Life gets more humorous the older I get
I thought the first reactive resin ball came out in 1992, being either the Rhino Pro, the XCalibur, or Turbo/X..
Honestly, I dont think there are very many pros that really "like" urethane. But, at the end of the day, they have to use what is going to give them the best chance to win and push them because that is what the companies are releasing. Even though Rash has gone public with his disdain for it, I could see him throwing the UC3 at quite a few stops since that balls reacts like resin on the backend.
That's why I mentioned Amleto, since he dominated the PBA between 1988 and 1992 prior to reactive resin coming out. If urethane became dominant again, I could see him coming back out onto the main tour for a stop or two (just because) and run circles around the kids.
As for Rash, he actually proves my point in my previous post regarding not liking Urethane because he's not wanting to use it to his advantage. He has the ability to use it; spending the time to complain about it instead of honing that ability to use it is detrimental to him and his game.
BL.
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My mistake. 30 years. Typo.
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As someone who came up with rubber, through polyester, then urethane, and then resin, and then more reactive resin,this is a most stupid conversation. Standing outside and reading all this BS is sickening. Christ guys, just learn to bowl
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As someone who came up with rubber, through polyester, then urethane, and then resin, and then more reactive resin,this is a most stupid conversation. Standing outside and reading all this BS is sickening. Christ guys, just learn to bowl
Bitch and complain all you want, but this is still an open forum for it's members to enjoy and post in, so deal with it. :o ::)
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Bowling has always been an environmental game. Lane surfaces evolved from shellac to lacquer to urethane to synthetics. Balls evolved from rubber to polyester to urethane to resin enhanced urethane. All of these changes favored different types of releases. Some adjusted to the changes and some did not.
I was terrible during the 80s, complaining about the cup wristed crankers who out carried me to such an extent that my superior spare shooting was irrelevant. I never did adjust effectively to that environment. Resin along with a return to longer oil reinvigorated my game in the 90s.
The re emergence of urethane today is much different than in the 80s. In the 80s the power players slow hooked the lane taking advantage of the short oil. Today they use urethane to keep the ball straighter with high ball soeed
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As someone who came up with rubber, through polyester, then urethane, and then resin, and then more reactive resin,this is a most stupid conversation. Standing outside and reading all this BS is sickening. Christ guys, just learn to bowl
Bitch and complain all you want, but this is still an open forum for it's members to enjoy and post in, so deal with it. :o ::)
You tell him, Jim! LMBO!!!!
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How could the PBA manipulate their oil patterns to make them less urethane friendly? Make them longer? Reduce the lengthwise taper? It is even possible to completely take urethane out of play? What are your thoughts?
Just to go back a little to the original post...
We've been testing a bunch of patterns for upcoming/future tournaments and have had a few 5 gamers to test with as well. The one thing we've learned with trying to bring in more bowlers, is those less knowledgeable have instantly gone to urethane if the pattern is 40ft or less.
Our center is also lower friction, so big balls with surface are almost always in play especially if the pattern has at least 24mls.
It seems as though urethane being everywhere has spread to amateur bowlers who throw it nowhere close to how most on the PBA Tour do
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As someone who came up with rubber, through polyester, then urethane, and then resin, and then more reactive resin,this is a most stupid conversation. Standing outside and reading all this BS is sickening. Christ guys, just learn to bowl
So is this post the most stupid/asinine or is it the fingers post? Pick one please.
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How could the PBA manipulate their oil patterns to make them less urethane friendly?
Why would you want to?
Can you not learn to use it too?
If not, why not?
Make them longer? Reduce the lengthwise taper? It is even possible to completely take urethane out of play? What are your thoughts?
My thoughts are: When you limit the activity, you limit the number of participant as well.
There are those out here that PREFER the look and reaction of urethane. Jakob Butturf and Jesper Svensson are two that come to mind. I’m sure there are more.
Bowling is a sport, and as such, is something to COMPETE at. If I can use a urethane ball and score well enough, while also preventing you from being able to bury me, why shouldn’t I?
If I have the skill and ability to use urethane to help me beat you, and you don’t have the necessary skill and ability to either stop me, or join me in using urethane, the you DESERVE to lose.
If resin really was as good as some think, it wouldn’t be easy to keep it from working.
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As an update regarding Rash. He has a video on Youtube where he and Tim Mack are doing a drill session and Rash does have the UC3 on the bench ready to be punched up. So it will be interesting to see if he makes a show and uses that ball.
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I think Rashes heavy end over end roll would match up great with urethane, especially the way he likes to play some patterns
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I think Rashes heavy end over end roll would match up great with urethane, especially the way he likes to play some patterns
I think so as well. He already cups the ball as much if not more than the guys in the 80s and can create the drive that they did. I mean, even back in that day for me, if I didn't snap the wrist around and swing the ball like Amleto, I stayed behind the ball to not put as much side rotation on it as I could, and brought my target on the lane closer to me, causing the ball to get into an earlier roll. That effectively was the game back then: if you didn't give away the pocket, you played up the boards.
Rash could do the same with a Rubicon: He has the ability to create the revs like Svensson, and the ability to play outside and not move, like WRW or Duke. Then he can dominate with urethane and leave the complaints to being about the helicopter spinning guys that take the oil out of play. :P ::)
BL.
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I think Rashes heavy end over end roll would match up great with urethane, especially the way he likes to play some patterns
I think so as well. He already cups the ball as much if not more than the guys in the 80s and can create the drive that they did. I mean, even back in that day for me, if I didn't snap the wrist around and swing the ball like Amleto, I stayed behind the ball to not put as much side rotation on it as I could, and brought my target on the lane closer to me, causing the ball to get into an earlier roll. That effectively was the game back then: if you didn't give away the pocket, you played up the boards.
Rash could do the same with a Rubicon: He has the ability to create the revs like Svensson, and the ability to play outside and not move, like WRW or Duke. Then he can dominate with urethane and leave the complaints to being about the helicopter spinning guys that take the oil out of play. :P ::)
BL.
Rash is a very different player than he was 10 years ago. His rev rate has come down considerably and what makes him so good now is his ability to adjust his speed to compensate for the drop in rev rate and where he is playing on the lane. Almost willing to bet his rev rate was in that 475-500 area 10 years ago and now it is 400-425. I have a feeling we are going to see more of him on TV this year now that there is a urethane that will match up to his game now.
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Urethane is great when you need to control the backends... which you don't need to do in your house wall shot league. The issue for me becomes when people who watch too much TV bring their Purple Hammer or Pitch Black to a china league and effectively destroy the scoring pace for everyone while they shoot 490.
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Currently, I have three urethane balls in the bag, a UC3, a Purple Hammer, and a Pitch Black. Now, to be clear, only one of those typically comes to league with me, and that's the Pitch Black because I use it for spares.
I don't use urethane on our house shot because it just doesn't make a lot of sense to do so. I use urethane when I need quick traction and control all the way down the lane. Our house shot is your typical medium volume, medium length pattern, so using the UC3 or the Purple Hammer would mean having to stand way left and fighting to get it down the lane due to how early they want to dig in. That leads to silly angles, little forgiveness, and a lot of frustration on my part.
Now, I could probably get away with using my Pitch Black as a strike ball if I wanted to use a rolly hand position and stay up the lane all night. Again though, I don't because that would almost be like playing defense when, to me, typical house shots should be all about attack mode from the very first ball.
All of this being said, I have the right to use whatever I want to use regardless of what it does to the scoring pace for others. Okay, maybe I should ask myself if what I'm doing will mess up my teammates seeing as how I'm bowling for a team. Still, at the end of the day, I'm there to put up the best score that I can. If I honestly think that my best look comes from using urethane, then I have the right to use it just like someone else may choose to use a 360-grit solid asym. right up the track.
As bowlers, we need to stop acting like the other guys and gals on the pair owe it to us to think about where and how we want to play the lanes when making decisions about where and how they want to play the lanes. Is it frustrating when you know that someone is doing something silly/foolish, sure. I get that. Still, they have the right to bowl their game. It's not their responsibility to worry about whether or not I can score.
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My teammate uses a pretty dull Purple Hammer about 70% of the time during our sport/challenge pattern league. The only time I've had issue is when I'm throwing right on top of his line. Usually by the end of game 1 I'll need to move somewhere else. But as a whole I'm having one of my best years. I haven't let his ball use bother me or get in my head. Bowling is about adjusting, whether it from drying heads from dull reactive balls or carry down from urethane. If you're thinking about what ball "X" is doing to the lane, you're already fighting an uphill battle.
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Currently, I have three urethane balls in the bag, a UC3, a Purple Hammer, and a Pitch Black. Now, to be clear, only one of those typically comes to league with me, and that's the Pitch Black because I use it for spares.
I don't use urethane on our house shot because it just doesn't make a lot of sense to do so. I use urethane when I need quick traction and control all the way down the lane. Our house shot is your typical medium volume, medium length pattern, so using the UC3 or the Purple Hammer would mean having to stand way left and fighting to get it down the lane due to how early they want to dig in. That leads to silly angles, little forgiveness, and a lot of frustration on my part.
Now, I could probably get away with using my Pitch Black as a strike ball if I wanted to use a rolly hand position and stay up the lane all night. Again though, I don't because that would almost be like playing defense when, to me, typical house shots should be all about attack mode from the very first ball.
All of this being said, I have the right to use whatever I want to use regardless of what it does to the scoring pace for others. Okay, maybe I should ask myself if what I'm doing will mess up my teammates seeing as how I'm bowling for a team. Still, at the end of the day, I'm there to put up the best score that I can. If I honestly think that my best look comes from using urethane, then I have the right to use it just like someone else may choose to use a 360-grit solid asym. right up the track.
As bowlers, we need to stop acting like the other guys and gals on the pair owe it to us to think about where and how we want to play the lanes when making decisions about where and how they want to play the lanes. Is it frustrating when you know that someone is doing something silly/foolish, sure. I get that. Still, they have the right to bowl their game. It's not their responsibility to worry about whether or not I can score.
I agree with you. If what you are throwing is that big of an issue for the people you are bowling against. Then the people you are not nearly as good at bowling as they think they are.
Its not your fault if they can't adjust.
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With that in mind, I have a Fast Pitch that doesn't flare, maybe I'll just bring it to league for no other reason than to mess other people up.
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I agree with you. If what you are throwing is that big of an issue for the people you are bowling against. Then the people you are not nearly as good at bowling as they think they are.
Its not your fault if they can't adjust.
Yep, and it cuts both ways. The last time I bowled a league that DIDN'T have regular plastic-throwers on it was a PBAX scratch league 10 years ago. Ever since, I've either had to contend with older folks throwing plastic because of ball speed issues, or beginners piping Mixes and TZones up fourth arrow because that's the only shot they have. So it's not just bowlers of a higher skill level "messing up" the shot for average bowlers with urethane, it's the lower-end bowlers making life tougher on the higher-average bowlers with plastic and/or spraying the ball all over creation.
It's our job to solve the riddle.
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I agree with you. If what you are throwing is that big of an issue for the people you are bowling against. Then the people you are not nearly as good at bowling as they think they are.
Its not your fault if they can't adjust.
Yep, and it cuts both ways. The last time I bowled a league that DIDN'T have regular plastic-throwers on it was a PBAX scratch league 10 years ago. Ever since, I've either had to contend with older folks throwing plastic because of ball speed issues, or beginners piping Mixes and TZones up fourth arrow because that's the only shot they have. So it's not just bowlers of a higher skill level "messing up" the shot for average bowlers with urethane, it's the lower-end bowlers making life tougher on the higher-average bowlers with plastic and/or spraying the ball all over creation.
It's our job to solve the riddle.
I agree with this totally. Just bowled on a league shot that completely disappeared by the third game. Old teetotaling anchor was throwing a super shiny ball straight up 10. His lead off guy throwing a Fatal Venom from start to finish up 13, and his middle guy spinning a shiny ball from the 90's all over the place. I went from 225-258 to 166 as none of my balls could make the corner suddenly. Moving right.......back into the beat up traffic area only lead to a lot of head scratching leaves!
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Amazing how the philosophy has changed from just 15 years ago. Came across thios post from Bill at Buddies proshop while search for something unrelated to this topic.
Re: would you buy this ball if Hammer made it?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 08:05:14 AM »
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A true urethane ball is not needed in today's game. The bowlers that think that Urethane is the answer need different layouts and need to learn to adjust.
Wet/Dry and Over/Under lane condition can be matched pretty easy using the proper layouts.
How often do you see guys on the tour throwing Urethane on the show? Do you think that your carry percentage will be as high using an old Burdgandy Hammer versus someone throwing a No Mercy?
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Thanks,
Bill
BowlingBallReviews.com
Apparently the prevailing thought processes have changed over time. I find that interesting.
Brad
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I think part of what has happened is that rev rates have gotten so high that it has put urethane back in the game as a way to control the back end on the flat patterns. Also the purple hammer woke up a lot of guys on tour.
I am just an old over the hill low speed stroke but I take my purple hammer every place. Not much good on a house shot except for maybe 1 game but useful on shorter sport patterns. Also I have urethane in my bag since the natural came out. Made money with it and blue hammer remake.
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Amazing how the philosophy has changed from just 15 years ago. Came across thios post from Bill at Buddies proshop while search for something unrelated to this topic.
Re: would you buy this ball if Hammer made it?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 08:05:14 AM »
Quote
A true urethane ball is not needed in today's game. The bowlers that think that Urethane is the answer need different layouts and need to learn to adjust.
Wet/Dry and Over/Under lane condition can be matched pretty easy using the proper layouts.
How often do you see guys on the tour throwing Urethane on the show? Do you think that your carry percentage will be as high using an old Burdgandy Hammer versus someone throwing a No Mercy?
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Thanks,
Bill
BowlingBallReviews.com
Apparently the prevailing thought processes have changed over time. I find that interesting.
Brad
@ Brad.....the thought process has changed because the PBA has changed. So many two-handers and powerful guys with speed and high rev rates that high volume oil patterns no longer became a problem at all.
So the PBA went in the other direction. Flatter patterns and low volume oil patterns that the high rev guys would completely tear up, and tear down if they DIDN'T use urethane. Urethane pieces along with balls that have the SPEC technology just don't absorb oil as fast as regular resin pieces, thus allowing the PBA guys to preserve the pattern and customize/manicure the pattern as needed to give them hold.
These newer PBA patterns put more emphasis on accuracy and ball speed regulation.
What's new is old...and what's old becomes new again!
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Amazing how the philosophy has changed from just 15 years ago. Came across thios post from Bill at Buddies proshop while search for something unrelated to this topic.
Re: would you buy this ball if Hammer made it?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 08:05:14 AM »
Quote
A true urethane ball is not needed in today's game. The bowlers that think that Urethane is the answer need different layouts and need to learn to adjust.
Wet/Dry and Over/Under lane condition can be matched pretty easy using the proper layouts.
How often do you see guys on the tour throwing Urethane on the show? Do you think that your carry percentage will be as high using an old Burdgandy Hammer versus someone throwing a No Mercy?
--------------------
Thanks,
Bill
BowlingBallReviews.com
Apparently the prevailing thought processes have changed over time. I find that interesting.
Brad
@ Brad.....the thought process has changed because the PBA has changed. So many two-handers and powerful guys with speed and high rev rates that high volume oil patterns no longer became a problem at all.
So the PBA went in the other direction. Flatter patterns and low volume oil patterns that the high rev guys would completely tear up, and tear down if they DIDN'T use urethane. Urethane pieces along with balls that have the SPEC technology just don't absorb oil as fast as regular resin pieces, thus allowing the PBA guys to preserve the pattern and customize/manicure the pattern as needed to give them hold.
These newer PBA patterns put more emphasis on accuracy and ball speed regulation.
What's new is old...and what's old becomes new again!
I think you have it exactly right Jesse. I bowl in a scratch challenge league and the patterns this season are all shorter and low volume. The one we are currently on has a total volume of 17 ml at a 2.48 to 1 ratio with a length of 39 ft.
The only strategy I have found that is somewhat acceptable is using a UC3 at a 5000 CTD pad finish for about a game and a half, then change to my Motiv Sniper spare ball and just throw hard and straight at the pocket. Often the Sniper will still over hook if I let my ball speed get under 16 mph.
Just in case anyone is wondering; yes, the left-handers are having a much easier time than the right-handers. And yes, there is a huge amount of bitchin' and complaining going on. ;D
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Low volume 38-40 foot flat patterns play really hard and if you throw in some lane topography issues it’s a real treat…fortunately for local tournaments most of the lefties can’t bust a grape with a sledge hammer if the gutter isn’t sparking.