BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: dR3w on July 31, 2014, 11:32:13 AM
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Hi all,
In the past year or two, I've been getting more and more disgusted with my fit. My thumb has become more callused on both sides and my thumb hole has become more oval in nature. One thing that has really caused me issues lately is that my thumb changes size so much during the course of 3 games. When I start out, I can barely fit my thumb in the thumb hole. After 3 games, I am dropping the ball badly because the thumb hole feels so large. What do people out there do to cope with this type of change. I guess tape is the obvious answer, but I dislike the constant in out changes. Then it's always a guessing game whether I will hang if I put too much in. I tried Ron Clifton's fuzzy tape, and have had some success, but as my thumb has oval-ed over time, it feels like it rubs my thumb in certain spots. I have tried cutting that tape down a bit, but even that has given me mixed results.
Any suggestions? I've been bowling for about 15 years now, and have really only had this shrinking thumb problem over the last few years.
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I have this exact same issue with the thumb shrinking and also some blistering on the right portion about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch below the nail. When I first go in to bowl I have a hard time getting my thumb into the ball by the third game I'm dropping the ball. it is a pain to be constantly putting in and taking out tape.
I haven't found a solution yet either.
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Sounds like interchangeable thumbs would be a good investment?
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The first thing I would do is have your whole fit (span, pitches, sizes) reexamined. If the ball doesn't fit your hand properly, your thumb doesn't have a chance. The older I get the more my thumb changes. When I first started using Magic Carpet my tape usage dropped dramatically. Lately I have to add 1-2 pieces of white tape as the night goes on (1/2 piece at a time). Constantly changing might seem like a pain, but it's fast, easy, and effective. I put used tape on my tape box and reuse it later since I change so often. That way I'm not paying for new tape each and every time.
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Most thumbs are oval and not round. A good ball drilled should be able to help you with that by either an oval thumb insert or drill the thumbhole as over. I prefer the oval thumb insert so if needed, you can have it removed and placed with a different one. Also, you can accomplish this with using the interchangeable thumb system.
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My thumb also shrinks as the night goes on. I used to do the tape swapping thing all night, but I was going thru way too much tape. I recently started using Turbo's Shur Cusion tape, which has helped a ton. The foam in the tape allows me to get into the ball when it is tight early on, but as my thumb shrinks the fit remains snug. I added foam tape to the back side of all my thumb holes, then a piece or two of white tape to get the fit really snug prior to bowling. Now I don't have a problem with the thumb getting too lose anymore. Although I don't know how well the foam will hold up over the long haul. I have been doing this for a month or two now, and it is working well so far.
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Thanks to everyone who replied. I really appreciate it.
The interchangeable thumb does sound like a good idea, but my thumb changes so much over the course of a night, as well as over the course of the season, that I probably would have to have 3 or 4 replaceable thumb inserts … just guessing.
I have looked at the foam tape, and maybe I will give that a try.
I have never liked the feel of white tape. It makes me feel like I am going to hang, and always wind up getting tape residue when fiddling with it.
I have tried an oval drilling before, and didn't like the snug fit of the narrower hole. I felt like the skin on the underside of my thumb would pull on exiting and prevent a clean release. It could certainly be that after so many years of bowling with a round thumb hole, I just need to get used to it. I think that my thumb actually seems to rotate as it exits the thumb hole, and the oval seems to stop me from getting out clean that way.
I would love to be fit by someone who really knows how to fit. I live in Central Virginia and would travel within the state (or perhaps even further) to find someone who really knows his/her stuff. I have been to many coaches over my "career", and most have told me my fit is fine. Of course that isn't the same as hearing it from someone who fits people for a living.
Contrary to what the "standard" fitting guides have suggested, I have a forward pitch in my thumb (1/4") … yet my overall span is close to 4-3/4 and 4-7/8. I recently switched to Bill Hall's "tri-grip", and talked to him over the phone to settle on a span … but that isn't the same as being fit in person. Somedays the fit feels good, but some days it just feels bad. I wish I could describe it better.
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dR3w, I've had the same issue you've described for as long as I can remember. My thumb shrinks substantially over the course of the first game. I've tried several span/pitch combinations over the years hoping things would change, but nada. I've accepted this as natural thumb behavior for me, and I'm working with it instead of fighting it.
I've found it very useful to shrink my thumb before starting to bowl. About 15 minutes before getting on the lanes, I start the shrinking process using a vinyl thumb insert:
http://www.bowling.com/products/vise-ultimate-vinyl-round-thumb-insert-black.htm (http://www.bowling.com/products/vise-ultimate-vinyl-round-thumb-insert-black.htm)
I slowly force my thumb in, and after several minutes my thumb is reduced in size to what it would be after I've bowled for a while. You need to go to your pro shop and try on different sizes to figure out which size is right -- it's one of those things you can't really guess.
Beyond this, I find it useful to have interchangeable thumbs (IT, etc.) of at least two different sizes. There are times of the year where the ending size of my thumb is larger or smaller, depending on weather or how much I'm bowling.
Good luck. I's an irritating problem to have, but you can adjust to it.
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I would not be scared of having too many thumbs for an interchangable thumb. I use the Turbo switch grip, and have 3 different sizes, with a fourth thumb being a copy of my largest size. I use a plastic index card box (one of the cheap clear ones) and that fits every size thumb. My fit is correct, but I fight my thumb swelling and shrinking as well, and I do not regret the decision at all. Now I only use tape in the very uncommon event that my smallest thumb is too small.
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I'll say it because nobody has, bowlers use tape.
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Thumb Molds and tape. If you're having this many issues, your fit isn't as good as you think.
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I drill mine big...I add tape for fit...add and remove due to seasonality and swelling. The amount of beer I drink also changes my thumb size. I like to you tape because it allows me to relax my thumb so I do not squeeze..
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Assuming you have the correct span and pitches, tape is the only real solution.
Steven does what we recommended to bowlers who shrink a lot. For about 10 minutes before they would start bowling they would force their thumbs into a vinyl insert that was too small. This will preshrink the thumb.
Some can run cold water over the thumb and others could wrap a towel/handkerchief around the thumb tightly to try and pre-shrink the thumb.
If you are getting excessive callousing on the sides of the thumb I would look into side pitch issues because you are rubbing somewhere.
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I drill mine big...I add tape for fit...add and remove due to seasonality and swelling. The amount of beer I drink also changes my thumb size. I like to you tape because it allows me to relax my thumb so I do not squeeze..
I do the same thing with the thumb and but use a larger thumb insert instead. Even though I've had no problems will callouses, my ball driller thinks I'm nuts because making adjustments with tape changes your span.
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Assuming you have the correct span and pitches, tape is the only real solution.
Steven does what we recommended to bowlers who shrink a lot. For about 10 minutes before they would start bowling they would force their thumbs into a vinyl insert that was too small. This will preshrink the thumb.
Some can run cold water over the thumb and others could wrap a towel/handkerchief around the thumb tightly to try and pre-shrink the thumb.
If you are getting excessive callousing on the sides of the thumb I would look into side pitch issues because you are rubbing somewhere.
I have always questioned what is 'excessive callouses'. If I use a rake or shovel in the yard for a couple of days, I begin to develop callouses. I don't see how bowling is much different. I think you have repeated contact and friction with your thumb. This in turn causes callouses to develop. If there is no pain, or other negative effects, I don't think that the callous is a bad thing. If the skin build up becomes excessive, remove some with a razor, but leave enough build up to protect the delicate thumb.
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I'm certainly not an expert on this topic, but I was dealing with thumb fit issues very bad last year. I tried lots of different suggestions. The one that finally did the trick for me is tiered taping:
http://www.itbca.bowlingknowledge.info/index.php/2013-fall/95-tiered-taping-a-process-to-reduce-grip-pressure-and-improve-swing-release
After I figured out the right amount of tape with that, I no longer had a need to add/remove tape throughout the night. Might be worth a shot.
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Assuming you have the correct span and pitches, tape is the only real solution.
Steven does what we recommended to bowlers who shrink a lot. For about 10 minutes before they would start bowling they would force their thumbs into a vinyl insert that was too small. This will preshrink the thumb.
Some can run cold water over the thumb and others could wrap a towel/handkerchief around the thumb tightly to try and pre-shrink the thumb.
If you are getting excessive callousing on the sides of the thumb I would look into side pitch issues because you are rubbing somewhere.
I have always questioned what is 'excessive callouses'. If I use a rake or shovel in the yard for a couple of days, I begin to develop callouses. I don't see how bowling is much different. I think you have repeated contact and friction with your thumb. This in turn causes callouses to develop. If there is no pain, or other negative effects, I don't think that the callous is a bad thing. If the skin build up becomes excessive, remove some with a razor, but leave enough build up to protect the delicate thumb.
I've seen some thumbs that look like a tumor is growing on the side.
Some callous is natural and needed. But you shouldn't be able to look at a thumb and go obviously this person is a bowler.
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You could try thumbless.
Actually the interchangeable thumb sleeves would be the way to go but only after you have had your ball fit checked.
Then get 3 different sizes made.... small, normal and extra large for your various swelling issues.
You can even take these a step further by making them so you can put a piece of textured tape in both the front and back of the thumbhole to start with.
I am a notorious tape changer so I feel your pain.
Also if you go thru that much tape maybe look into buying a 500 piece roll.
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Assuming you have the correct span and pitches, tape is the only real solution.
Steven does what we recommended to bowlers who shrink a lot. For about 10 minutes before they would start bowling they would force their thumbs into a vinyl insert that was too small. This will preshrink the thumb.
Some can run cold water over the thumb and others could wrap a towel/handkerchief around the thumb tightly to try and pre-shrink the thumb.
If you are getting excessive callousing on the sides of the thumb I would look into side pitch issues because you are rubbing somewhere.
I have always questioned what is 'excessive callouses'. If I use a rake or shovel in the yard for a couple of days, I begin to develop callouses. I don't see how bowling is much different. I think you have repeated contact and friction with your thumb. This in turn causes callouses to develop. If there is no pain, or other negative effects, I don't think that the callous is a bad thing. If the skin build up becomes excessive, remove some with a razor, but leave enough build up to protect the delicate thumb.
Once you rub, you build callus on top of callus. Period. There is no end to it. The body knows what it needs to do to protect itself. Unless you sand or cut off the callus, it will continue to enlarge, as long as there is friction. So there's basically no such thing as just enough callus; it will always be excessive.
I have been dealing with this problem for well over 40 years. So you could say I speak from experience. That said, my personal callus problem ceased when I started using tape on my thumb. I did it for to reasons: one, to help me get a cleaner release, and, two, to help prevent callus buildup and prevent blisters. Since i started using tape on my thumb, i have had ZERO blisters and have virtually no calluses on my thumb. I have averaged bowling 2-3 times per week, 52 weeks a year for the last 20 years. I started using thumb tae about 8 years ago. Since then, I have no worries about calluses or blisters.
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Thanks to everyone who replied. I really appreciate it.
The interchangeable thumb does sound like a good idea, but my thumb changes so much over the course of a night, as well as over the course of the season, that I probably would have to have 3 or 4 replaceable thumb inserts … just guessing.
As I implied, my thumb, like several others in this thread, changes an inordinate amount over the course of bowling, whether it be 3 games or 8 games. People who do not know or do not have the same problem, always ask why I "play" with my thumb hole and tape so much. I try to explain that they should be glad they don't have the same problem. Since they don't, they do not understand.
I would estimate that if I tried an interchangeable thumb, I'd need between 3 and 5 different sizes for each ball. Besides the fact that the system is not perfected and every one of the brands breaks in some fashion from time to time, I am not willing to even try one yet. I would suggest that you don't either.
I have looked at the foam tape, and maybe I will give that a try.
I have never liked the feel of white tape. It makes me feel like I am going to hang, and always wind up getting tape residue when fiddling with it.
Like anything worth doing, it takes time and experience to master. You are doing something wrong OR using the wrong tape if you are getting tape residue on your fingers.
I guarantee that. The only time I see residue is when a piece of tape has been in the thumb hole for too long. (FYI I use Master Tape, but have tried Real Bowler's Tape, Storm and Vise-Grip tape for the thumb hole, all with excellent results.)
FYI#2 I used ONLY black tape until one day I ran out and had to borrow someone else's tape and all he used was White. I was amazed: it acted like an/off switch for me. That was about 1995. I have used it exclusively ever since.
White tape is your life line. earn it, use it, love it. It will save your *ss, too many times to count.
As a matter of general principles, your thumb hole must be as large as your thumb will ever swell; that includes some tournaments where bowling starts at 8 AM, when yor body's extremities (hands, fingers, feet, toes) are swollen beyond belief. If you doubt me, when you normally wake up (5 AM, 6 AM 8 AM, whatever) run to your bowlingbag and try to stick your hand in your bowling ball. Bet you $50 you can't!!!
So, unless you're a robot or not human, you need tape (white or black) in the front (and maybe the back) of your thumb hole. It is the thumb adjustment. Everyone swells to a lesser or greater degree. It depends on body chemistry, humidity, weather, phases of the moon, religion, politics, etc
Unless you have another way (Ron Clifton's Magic Carpet, Slick Tape or some other), white tape is your key success.
I have tried an oval drilling before, and didn't like the snug fit of the narrower hole. I felt like the skin on the underside of my thumb would pull on exiting and prevent a clean release. It could certainly be that after so many years of bowling with a round thumb hole, I just need to get used to it. I think that my thumb actually seems to rotate as it exits the thumb hole, and the oval seems to stop me from getting out clean that way.
Unless you're very unusual (5% percentile), most people's thumb is oval. If not when you look at it from the end, then, when it is placed in a thumb hole and you press down to hold the ball firmly, it WILL BE oval.
For most (no, not everyone) people, even a milled thumb hole is wider, left to right than top to bottom (or back to front). You fit the thumb hole left to right, then you adjust it with tape top (back of the thumb) or bottom of thumb hole (front of the thumb).
I would love to be fit by someone who really knows how to fit. I live in Central Virginia and would travel within the state (or perhaps even further) to find someone who really knows his/her stuff. I have been to many coaches over my "career", and most have told me my fit is fine. Of course that isn't the same as hearing it from someone who fits people for a living.
Contrary to what the "standard" fitting guides have suggested, I have a forward pitch in my thumb (1/4") … yet my overall span is close to 4-3/4 and 4-7/8. I recently switched to Bill Hall's "tri-grip", and talked to him over the phone to settle on a span … but that isn't the same as being fit in person. Somedays the fit feels good, but some days it just feels bad. I wish I could describe it better.
Whoa! How did you get a Bill Hall Tri-Grip without getting fit in person????
I understand that a pro shop has to buy Bill's Software and be instructed in its use to fit a person properly with it.
!/4" forawrd is within the parameters of a 4 3/4" - 4 7/8" span. I have a 4 3/4" span and use ZERO reverse with 1/4" left (away from palm) pitch; I am right handed.
Might I suggest you be more open to certain adjustments (like tape, AND different brands of tape, white and black, rough and smooth) and be willing to experiment a little more over a period of time, before deciding on a final course of action.
Good luck.
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I would estimate that if I tried an interchangeable thumb, I'd need between 3 and 5 different sizes for each ball. Besides the fact that the system is not perfected and every one of the brands breaks in some fashion from time to time, I am not willing to even try one yet. I would suggest that you don't either.
Most of your analysis is fairly accurate, but I don't agree with your assessment of interchangeable thumbs. I used Turbo Switch Grip when they first came out, and I've been using the Vise IT for the past several years. I average 20-30 games a week, and I've never had a problem with the IT system. If it's installed properly, it should be bullet proof for most bowlers.
I say "most" because I know a few really high rev bowlers, who rip the cover off at release, experience isolated problems with IT. But I'm talking about guys in the top 5% of rev rates, who put incredible torque on the ball. Unless a bowler falls into anything close to that category, it would be foolish not to use the system, especially if you have a sizable arsenal.
I have swelling/shrinking issues on par with anyone, and I can't image needing more than three sizes. I do have three, and 95% of the time I'm alternating between 2 of them. I make tape adjustments to deal with any fine tuning needed.
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Charlest, how can you have a right fit and not rub some?
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Charlest, how can you have a right fit and not rub some?
The rubbing is on the tape, not on my thumb surface.
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I would estimate that if I tried an interchangeable thumb, I'd need between 3 and 5 different sizes for each ball. Besides the fact that the system is not perfected and every one of the brands breaks in some fashion from time to time, I am not willing to even try one yet. I would suggest that you don't either.
Most of your analysis is fairly accurate, but I don't agree with your assessment of interchangeable thumbs. I used Turbo Switch Grip when they first came out, and I've been using the Vise IT for the past several years. I average 20-30 games a week, and I've never had a problem with the IT system. If it's installed properly, it should be bullet proof for most bowlers.
I say "most" because I know a few really high rev bowlers, who rip the cover off at release, experience isolated problems with IT. But I'm talking about guys in the top 5% of rev rates, who put incredible torque on the ball. Unless a bowler falls into anything close to that category, it would be foolish not to use the system, especially if you have a sizable arsenal.
I have swelling/shrinking issues on par with anyone, and I can't image needing more than three sizes. I do have three, and 95% of the time I'm alternating between 2 of them. I make tape adjustments to deal with any fine tuning needed.
Steven,
That's your personal experience. I wouldn't say you found otherwise, but other people have. Barnes earned the hard way that he wasn't perfect. Yes, that's the exception, but tape doesn't have that all or nothing effect.
Plus is you also use tape on top of the 3 different sizes, that adds an additional complication. For the time being, I will stick to thumb hole tape personally. Let anyone who wishes experiment on their own. I just don't feel I can recommend it ... yet. (And, yes, I know several people personally who swear by them, as you do.)
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Steven,
That's your personal experience. I wouldn't say you found otherwise, but other people have. Barnes earned the hard way that he wasn't perfect. Yes, that's the exception, but tape doesn't have that all or nothing effect.
Plus is you also use tape on top of the 3 different sizes, that adds an additional complication. For the time being, I will stick to thumb hole tape personally. Let anyone who wishes experiment on their own. I just don't feel I can recommend it ... yet. (And, yes, I know several people personally who swear by them, as you do.)
I don't want to get into a pissing contest over it, but I mentioned it because for the vast majority of users, interchangeable thumbs don't cause issues. I've seen the glue come loose on "permanent" thumb slugs (twice) as often as I've seen failures on IT's. Bowl the Senior Masters, or any of the other PBA50 events and you'll see at least as many balls with interchangeable's as without. In these tournaments, nobody is using technology they can't rely on.
Also, I don't understand your comment about thumb tape causing issues on the different sizes. My base configuration on any thumb is three pieces of white in front, and one on the back. Based on the sized Interchangeable I'm using, I'll either add or subtract a piece in front to fine tune the grip. If that doesn't work, it's time to go with to a different size thumb. I find it quite simple.
As always, it's up to the individual to decide if it's worth the hassle to try something new. For Interchangeable thumbs, I hate to see fear as a reason for passing.
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Without completely read through I'll add my opinion on the original post...
Proper AND improper fits create callouses, understand releasing a bowling creates callouses of some sort as releasing a bowling, through acceleration, creates friction, thus callouses.
And everyone's thumb or digits will swell to some extreme due to varying complications, weather, temperature, any liquids or food consumed AND how much the individual grips or SQUEEZES and TRUST me, everyone squeezes...now with all that being said, you have a fit problem - plain & simple. Until you get a proper fit - SPAN and ANGLES - nothing else matters...slugs, tape or interchangeable inserts....NOTHING.
go get reFIT by a qualified pro shop professional and ACCEPT the fact you have GRIP ISSUES
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Steven,
That's your personal experience. I wouldn't say you found otherwise, but other people have. Barnes earned the hard way that he wasn't perfect. Yes, that's the exception, but tape doesn't have that all or nothing effect.
Plus is you also use tape on top of the 3 different sizes, that adds an additional complication. For the time being, I will stick to thumb hole tape personally. Let anyone who wishes experiment on their own. I just don't feel I can recommend it ... yet. (And, yes, I know several people personally who swear by them, as you do.)
I don't want to get into a pissing contest over it, but I mentioned it because for the vast majority of users, interchangeable thumbs don't cause issues. I've seen the glue come loose on "permanent" thumb slugs (twice) as often as I've seen failures on IT's. Bowl the Senior Masters, or any of the other PBA50 events and you'll see at least as many balls with interchangeable's as without. In these tournaments, nobody is using technology they can't rely on.
Understood. No pissing contest.
Also, I don't understand your comment about thumb tape causing issues on the different sizes. My base configuration on any thumb is three pieces of white in front, and one on the back. Based on the sized Interchangeable I'm using, I'll either add or subtract a piece in front to fine tune the grip. If that doesn't work, it's time to go with to a different size thumb. I find it quite simple.
I said that because you said you still had to use tape with the switchable inserts,
As always, it's up to the individual to decide if it's worth the hassle to try something new. For Interchangeable thumbs, I hate to see fear as a reason for passing.
My personal "fear" is twofold, oops, make that 3-fold. 1) That I'd need 3 or more inserts; 2) that it might break, although the chance seems to be vanishingly small (I have had so many thumb problems over the years, that the potentiality of another one makes me want the percentage of failure to be infinitesimally small.), 2) [new problem] the size of the hole required makes me concerned about weight holes and required top weight and how much is removed. (This may wind up being nothing, but not having done anything in this regard, all I have done is see the large holes where people's thumb hole is.)
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Any interchangeable inserts alter the inner dynamics, more so than most realize
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Rico
Can the problem of blistering be caused by gripping the ball too much or is it usually a fit problem. I've been fighting blistering on the top rt side of my thumb 1/4 to 1/2 inch below my nail. At first my driller told me it was a fit problem made a couple adjustments still had the blistering problem. Now I'm being told it's me gripping the ball. I've been working on it for 8 months still having the same issue.
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Gripping generally references the feeling of losing control of the bowling ball - the primary influencers are improper span or the thumb hole being too big - the bowling ball should fit on the bowlers hand and supported by the wrist and releases thru gravity & momentum
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When your thumb shrinks, you will grip the ball or drop it if you do not use tape to tighten the fit. Gripping it can cause the blistering you complain of. Tape should solve the problem. If it does not, and you continue to blister, you have a grip problem. First place I would look is at the reverse in your thumb, assuming your span is proper. Find a good pro shop guy and let him check your fit.
Ultimately, even with the proper fit, you will have to compensate with being human by using tape or interchangeable slugs. Based on my experience, even if you go with the slugs, you will still need to use tape to fine tune the fit.
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Thanks again to all the replies.
One thing I noticed in the replies is people mentioning blisters. I don't have any blisters, and don't recall mentioning that in my original post or my reply. I do have calluses on both sides of my thumb.
I am not being thick-headed about being re-fit. I would be more than welcome to having my grip checked, and changed as I mentioned in my original post. Anyone have any suggestions in the Virginia area?
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Blisters = callouses
Find out where Richie Wolfe is
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Where in VA are you?
You don't want to use tape and you don't want an oval hole. Your thumb is just going to keep getting bigger.
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just my 2cents here. I have a problem with my fit only during the spring. i use a extra smooth blue thumb tape and that helps, but like everyone else i was having a problem with thumb and finger callouses. it was getting so bad it hurt to bowl, on the outside back of my thumb and last knuckle on my fingers. it hurt to throw the first ball, but then as the night went on it seemed to get better. i talked to my proshop guy, who i trust completely, and he mentioned that in the spring i start working more with my hands and thus my hand "muscles" up and shrinks my span for when i bowl. then as i start to bowl the hand stretches and the span gets better, and the tightness in the inserts then dissapates. not because my fingers shrink, the hand actual gets bigger, helping in the fit. He had me start stretching out my hand before i bowl, and the pain went away. i do still wear the tape, but just by stretching my hand out first, the fit of the ball starts out the night right.
again, this is just my experience, and it is not intended to be the cure all for everyone else.
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Where in VA are you?
You don't want to use tape and you don't want an oval hole. Your thumb is just going to keep getting bigger.
I didn't say I won't, just that my experience has been bad so far. I'm willing to try. I live in central Va. Near Lynchburg.
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Blisters = callouses
Find out where Richie Wolfe is
I looked for some info on Mr. Wolfe. The latest info I could find stated he was managing a center now ... not running a pro shop. But I'll try and confirm that.
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Now I know exactly ill get better recommendation
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I'm in the process of moving to Roanoke and I can help you. My problem is I have no connections in any pro shops around here yet and all of my tools are in my garage in Connecticut. So if you can wait a couple of weeks the next time I go back I can bring my tools back and we could get together.
Other than that I don't have much advice about this area, I haven't been here very long.
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I'm in the process of moving to Roanoke and I can help you. My problem is I have no connections in any pro shops around here yet and all of my tools are in my garage in Connecticut. So if you can wait a couple of weeks the next time I go back I can bring my tools back and we could get together.
Other than that I don't have much advice about this area, I haven't been here very long.
I was going to mention this to the OP yesterday, but I wasn't sure if you were really moving....
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Yup, 4th move in 10 years. Phoenix to Hartford to Sacramento to Hartford to Roanoke. My dogs have seen more of the country than most people.
If you want to get me fired up ask me about movers and realtors.
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I HATE MOVING...
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Me too, but I'm working on being a kept man.
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Me too, but I'm working on being a kept man.
I need a sugar mama.....
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It takes good speculation and then you must groom them properly in the early years. My wife worked at Lady Footlocker when I met her.
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+1 lol
It takes good speculation and then you must groom them properly in the early years. My wife worked at Lady Footlocker when I met her.