BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: scrub49 on May 20, 2014, 02:47:23 PM
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Have an span of 5 and 5 1/8 using 1/8 rev 1/8 lat just not releasing as clean as I like 3/8 and 1/4 seems too much thinking about 0 and 0 to take some grab at the bottom of the swing need some in-put please.
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For what it's worth, my span is 4 9/16 and 4 5/8. I went from 3/8 reverse and 1/8 under to 0 and 0 (in 1/8" increments).I had to bevel the front of hole so much to clear it I ended up squeezing anyway. I am currently at 7/16 reverse 3/16 away and love it. Probably depends mostly on the flexibility of your hand. I suggest experimenting.
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Tried 0 and 0 two games last night felt ok will bowl at least 3 games today to get an better idea.
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Then your span is too long. If the span is the right length, you shouldn't have to bevel much regardless of pitch. With a relaxed grip, your thumb socket at the base of your thumb should rest directly above the thumbhole. This allows your thumb to be straight in the hole and come straight out on release. If you had to bevel, it was a span issue, not a pitch issue.
For what it's worth, my span is 4 9/16 and 4 5/8. I went from 3/8 reverse and 1/8 under to 0 and 0 (in 1/8" increments).I had to bevel the front of hole so much to clear it I ended up squeezing anyway. I am currently at 7/16 reverse 3/16 away and love it. Probably depends mostly on the flexibility of your hand. I suggest experimenting.
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With that long of a span, you probably need more reverse rather than less . . but every hand is different so I can't say for sure. Are you perchance double jointed? If your span is the correct length, less pitch may actually work better, if you're stretched at all it will make it worse.
Have an span of 5 and 5 1/8 using 1/8 rev 1/8 lat just not releasing as clean as I like 3/8 and 1/4 seems too much thinking about 0 and 0 to take some grab at the bottom of the swing need some in-put please.
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Thanks Gizmo keep what you said in mind, my middle finger is so weak I think I am compensating by squeezing the ball to get an good secured feel on the holes.
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Historical rule was longer spans need more reverse. That is not entirely wrong, but many bowlers don't need reverse at all on a thumb. I went from 1/4 reverse to 1/4 forward with a 4 7/8 span but also went from 1/4 tuck to 1/2 away on my fingers to foster a softer open handed release. It didn't change my ability to clear the ball at all.
There is a relationship between finger pitches and thumb pitches. Historically, nobody went away on their fingers unless they had physical limitations.
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Yeah, they used to use a bit of backwards logic several years ago. It's better to have some reverse in the fingers and not much, if any, in the thumb. It's just the way the hand is shaped, and the physics of the ball rolling off the hand supports a more relaxed, comfortable fit.
Historical rule was longer spans need more reverse. That is not entirely wrong, but many bowlers don't need reverse at all on a thumb. I went from 1/4 reverse to 1/4 forward with a 4 7/8 span but also went from 1/4 tuck to 1/2 away on my fingers to foster a softer open handed release. It didn't change my ability to clear the ball at all.
There is a relationship between finger pitches and thumb pitches. Historically, nobody went away on their fingers unless they had physical limitations.
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Bowled two games cleared the thumb well stayed with the shot longer with less grip pressure, that's with 0/0. Also used ball with 1/8 and 1/8 cleared a little sooner just a bit more rotation need more games to be sure which is best. Also considering trying about an 1/8 forward later this summer.
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Wow! what a great set of posts out here!!
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I will agree that every hand is different. The reason I must bevel the front of the thumb hole is so my thumb PAD can clear properly. I have scar tissue on it that makes it thicker than the base of my thumb. It grabs enough to slam thumb nail against back of hole. I don't have to bevel nearly as much with more reverse pitch. And I never would have tried that much reverse without it being suggested by a Regional level bowler. He uses 1/2" reverse with similar span.
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Just because someone bowls at a high level doesn't mean they have a clue about fitting or drilling. There's a guy around here that averages almost 240 that doesn't have a clue about how to drill a ball, he gives it to us and tells us to make it work. Again, if your span is the correct length, your thumb should come straight out of the thumbhole, the angle or pitch shouldn't have anything to do with it. Coming straight out of the hole is coming straight out of the hole. If you need that much reverse to help you clear the hole, that means your thumb isn't coming straight out, that it's dragging significantly on the front edge of the hole instead of coming straight out, again pointing to a span that's too long. I'm not trying to throw anything back in your face, I understand what you're getting at, but I've fit a lot of people with a lot of crazy hands. Even had one guy that wanted a conventional fit, but had his middle and ring finger fused together from the base right up to his cuticles. That was an adventure . .
I will agree that every hand is different. The reason I must bevel the front of the thumb hole is so my thumb PAD can clear properly. I have scar tissue on it that makes it thicker than the base of my thumb. It grabs enough to slam thumb nail against back of hole. I don't have to bevel nearly as much with more reverse pitch. And I never would have tried that much reverse without it being suggested by a Regional level bowler. He uses 1/2" reverse with similar span.
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No not really!
I can't imagine anyone with a 5 inch span using 0 reverse! I have not seen a thumb flexible enough for that....OH wait yes I have! One! And the fella's thumb calls for a later under and reverse but he went to lateral out, one of the few I have seen to bowl well where his anatomy does not call for this setup for his anatomy.
Re: Gizmo's comments I agree with many of them! I know he has drilled a lot more balls than I have and creates great releases with his attention to detail. I have watched his videos.
But on these two points I would like to file should I say exceptions.
1. No bevel in a thumbhole. There is some debate on this. Many drillers say bevel is dependent on the amount of fatty skin between the index finger and thumb. I am a big believer in this. Knowing a driller that had none (no fatty tissue between his index finger and thumb) he drilled virtually no bevel for himself. But added bevel to most of his clients balls. I having a lot of tissue there use a medium to moderate amount of bevel. I am a big proponent of the just right amount of bevel using the Mo Pinel bevel tips outlined in the Ballreviews reference section. I rlayed this information in that particular section from Mo to the Compiler of this reference guide. This amount of bevel can vary for a person based on how they set up their balls ie if they used a different thumb pitch and span to adjust their roll. In addition the amount of bevel can be different on the front of the thumb versus the side using the Mo bevel tips. A change in thumb pitch will often change the amounts of bevel added and where in order to continue to facilitate a butter feeling thumb release.
2. As to the thumb straight under the thumb joint for a perfect fit when put on top of the ball fingers in the fingerholes.
I believe there are bowlers(I am one of them with a very flexible hand and fingers(still at my age). Many ball drillers are surprised at my span but I have mentioned to some that when it looks correct (perfect really) as I go to throw the ball and the ball weight tranfers to my fingers my hand seems to lentghen or stretch even more making the back of my thumb catch against the back of my thumbhole.
Bottom line.
1. I couldn't bowl without thumb bevel and neither do some of the best pro bowlers you've ever seen.
2. Thumb bevel is a funttion of thumb anatomy and pitches in the ball and can be resolved through the Mo Pinel bevel tips in our reference section.
3. Total span is a function of size of hand AND flexibility of the hand pad and fingers and may have to adjusted after watching the throw and release.
Regards,
Luckylefty
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I wasn't saying not to bevel the thumb at all, I bevel mine, can't bowl with a sharp edge because that's just not how the base of my thumb is shaped! I usually use at least a bit of bevel for everyone. Beveling a hole significantly for someone to be able to release the ball without sticking is an indication the span is too long 99% of the time, and 100% of those people always want more "back angle" to "fix" the problem.
I also have to say I don't believe I've seen anyone with a 5 inch span be able to use 0 reverse . . I'm sure it's possible, I just haven't seen it.
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All I can tell you guy's is that last week I bowled horrible with an ball that had 3/8 rev and shot 570+ , had it slugged changed to 0/0 shot 215-242-220 same shot same house. But Gizmo is correct about the fact that 4 years ago I had at least 1/2 rev just have weak grip right now.
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There is a differene between shaping the inside of the thumb hole to accommodate shape due to either excess of skin, bevel is generally to accommodate release. If the coordinates are correct, i.e. span and angles, no bevel at the top of the hole is needed...squeezing is generally the main necessity of bevel...
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Then your span is too long. If the span is the right length, you shouldn't have to bevel much regardless of pitch. With a relaxed grip, your thumb socket at the base of your thumb should rest directly above the thumbhole. This allows your thumb to be straight in the hole and come straight out on release. If you had to bevel, it was a span issue, not a pitch issue.
For what it's worth, my span is 4 9/16 and 4 5/8. I went from 3/8 reverse and 1/8 under to 0 and 0 (in 1/8" increments).I had to bevel the front of hole so much to clear it I ended up squeezing anyway. I am currently at 7/16 reverse 3/16 away and love it. Probably depends mostly on the flexibility of your hand. I suggest experimenting.
What issues will one have if his span is drilled too short?
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The issue an improper fit creates is the digits being placed or forced in an unnatural direction which will entice gripping the ball improperly as well as unnaturally which in turn creates a muscled swing motion
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I coundn't disagree more that no bevel is needed for a perfect fit for all thumbs.
I work with a driller who I believe does a great job for many of his clients and I would guess 95% have bevel and get out of the ball quite nicely.
Rare is the bowler without it and very much of the time it is because they have no fatty skin between the thumb and index finger.
In addition with today's trend towards pitches that are more forward for the thumb than the 64 degree angle prescribed by Bill Taylor in his tables, many bowlers with these forward pitches need more bevel than ever under the flat of the thumb to both prevent lofting the ball from hanging and also to prevent black lines and nerve damage under the flat of the thumb.
I have fixed many an already nerve damaged thumb or beginning nerve damaged thumb by adding front bevel under the flat of the thumb when the forward reverse pitch is way forward of the Bill Taylor tables and the thumb did not have the flexibility to carry it.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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99% of the time damage is created from an improperly fit span...bevel is necessitated after the fact...
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Flexibility? The thumb points in the same direction the rest of the fingers do, it actually needs to be more flexible to accommodate more REVERSE pitch. I DO have bevel, not much, but enough to take the sharpness off the edge. I bevel for all my customers, but not much to begin with, if they request more, I deal with it. If you do too much, it allows the hand to shift position on the ball and could change an otherwise good fit. If the "fatty skin" or webbing between the thumb and first finger is being irritated by a lack of bevel, that tells me the span is too long AND that the thumb has too much reverse. If the thumb socket is directly over the thumbhole, the span is appropriate, and the hand is in the correct position on the ball, you should not need much bevel, if any. If the webbing is stretched at all, or to the point where rubbing on the front edge of the hole is causing a blister at the base of the thumb, the fit is not correct, or at the very least could be made a lot better. Also keep in mind that the further the thumb is angled away from the palm, the more stretched the webbing becomes. With 0 or forward pitch, the webbing is relaxed.
If bowlers with forward pitches need more bevel, the span is too long or their hand is out of position. There should be no hanging unless there is also gripping. I'm at 0 any direction in my thumb, span is 4 3/8 x 4 7/16, and several years ago it used to be at 1/4 reverse on a slightly longer span. My release is clean every time now that I don't have to grip to hold onto the ball, I rub nowhere, and my thumb doesn't swell anymore, and I have significantly less bevel than I used to. If there's nerve damage, the span is too long or the bowler is gripping. Extra bevel on the front is never a fix, it's a bandaid. It just covers up a poor fit or allows the bowler to continue bad habits.
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Just had the ball I roll the best measured the final result is thumb 0/0 fingers are 3/8 rev in the middle 1/4 rev in the ring. Ball is coming off really clean I uses very little bevel learned that from some of the old-timers. It really let's me relax my hand. Ps: span is 5 and 5 1/8
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Gizmo,
I respect your comments.
Your answers are complete, non pedantic, not condescending, as if delivered from on high and refreshing for out here.
I believe we are closer in views than you sense. I believe in necessary bevel. Necessary bevel I believe increases the more one varies from their anatomical pitches.
For example any bowler that has a nice comfortable span with near 0 finger pitches and goes to a forward thumb pitch more than a quarter from the tables will often need to add a goodly amount of bevel under the flat pad using the MO Pinel Bevel tips. Or they almost universally suffer the black line electric shock consequences if other pitches are left alone and span stays the same.
I could try with an extra ball a reverse pitch fingers and 0,0 thumb pitch but I am confused as to why?
Why is a 0, 0 thumb pitch a goal? What does 0,0 thumb and reverse fingers on a 5 inch comfortable span accomplish better than a 0 reverse fingers reverse pitch thumb on the same comfortable span for a person with very flexible finger joints! How do you perceive the timing changing in the change from the traditional to your method?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Arthritis in my middle finger so bad that I have little or no bend so I uses 3/8 rev the ringer finger is less stiff so uses an 1/4 rev. Zero-Zero is not a goal after trying several grips it's let me bowl without much if any grip pressure, I have no thumb issues no swelling or cuts, also I'm 65 years old so my hand strength not what it use to be.
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Gripping angles should be dictated by the hand and release...NOTHING ELSE
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Gizmo,
I look forward to your answers also.
Scrub, I understand your issues of no finger flexibility. Luckily for me I still have fingers and hand flexibility like a man in his mid 20s they tell me.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS Rico, I agree watching the release and the timing, of fingers versus thumb important.
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LuckyLefty I've been lucky when it comes to the thumb most drillers in my area likes the fact that all they have to do is just drill the thumb hole and do not have to do any adjustments and very light bevel. The stiff fingers comes from old football injury. My release and timing of the fingers versus the thumb for reasons unknown to me is pretty good with 0/0 pitch. Still using the same size hole and everything.
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There are so many variables.
That is why I still believe using an adjustable measuring ball and having the bowler throw it to the pro in the air is the best way to determine proper spans and pitches.
You can adjust spans and pitches on all 3 of the digits.
This allows the pro to see how clean the release is and make adjustments.
It also allows the customer to feel the release they are getting.
The measuring balls are expensive, you might even drop one now and then (They are tougher than you think), but if you want to measure and get it right 95% of the time the first time they are a necessity.
We had 3 balls of different weight (11, 13 and 15) but you could probably get by with 1 around 12 lbs.
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0/0 is just a coincedence, I don't think it's ideal for everyone, because all hands are different. Just happens to be my specs and the specs scrub was trying out. Some people who are very flexible and/or double jointed do require some different technique or measurements, however, just based on the shape of the hand and the physics of the armswing and release, you don't need to put the hand in more unnatural positions to achieve the desired effect. You can get the same or better effect putting the hand in a more comfortable position. 0 reverse in the fingers and reverse in the thumb just isn't the way the hand is shaped, and even if someone CAN use a fit like that just fine, they will often be more comfortable and either see the same results or possibly better if you fit the hand as it more naturally lays. I actually drilled a new thumb slug a few days ago because the other one was getting too beveled and my hand was getting out of position on the ball. It improved my release.
You do need a straighter line on the thumb (equaling less bevel) to keep your hand in the proper position and as it was fit. Too much bevel can simulate a span that's too short. The thumb molds used in the fitting balls usually have very little bevel, and if you fit with them, and then bevel the hell out of the front side of the hole, the hand is going to ride up towards the fingers, usually resulting in digging in too far with the fingers and causing problems there because that's USUALLY the adjustment people naturally make. If the span feels too short, people will dig in more with the fingers rather than seating the hand back further and going as deep as they can with the thumb.
Again, people's hands are different, and even the way they get fit will be different. You could have two guys who have the exact same fit philosophy, and although I'm sure they would give the same person extremely similar fits, something will be different 4 out of 5 times. Some of it is an art too, because sometimes a ball can roll off the press ready to throw for some people, and for others, that's the shortest part of the process. There's one guy I drill for that I have to spend usually 30 minutes hand tooling on it after it comes off the press, he's got knobs and bone spurs . . but some of that is from years of a bad fit . .
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Gizmo,
Some very specific questions I am interested in.
It seems that you are saying most bowlers hands that have anatomy that favors reverse fingers and 0 or near 0 forward reverse in the thumb.
By old theories of 0 forward reverse in the fingers(based on flexibility) and reverse in the thumb on spans over 4 1/4. These theories get the thumb out quickly and then let the ball to ride for a long time on the fingers if there is a flat spot
So some questons.
1. For the same hand that accommodates those old 0 pitch forward back fingers and reverse thumbs switched to reverse fingers and 0 thumbs what is the change in timing look like? How does the arc of the swing change to keep the balls on the fingers?
2. Does the span have to lengthen?
Thanks,
Luckylefty
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Before my fingers start giving me problems I was using 1/2 to 5/8 reverse in the thumb, an friend of mines who use to be ball rep on the national tour tor track when Steve Hoskins and Double D was on Track's staff suggested to try less rev to help with grip issues. I started using 1/4 rev then another friend let me roll one of ball I liked it he said he uses 0 we have pretty close to same span mine maybe 1/16 to an 1/8 longer. Don't get me wrong my problem is not from the reverse I rolled the ball great with it, just age and time caught up with me. 0/0 just let continue to bowl without changing my span to semi-finger tip or even conventional grip
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Ah, but here's the issue. Just lay your hand flat on the table, all your fingers point the same direction. 0 in the fingers requires you to bend your fingers further under towards your palm. You don't need to bend them that much to get the effective lift. Also, your thumb isn't nearly as flexible as your fingertips. Most people can bend their finger tips under and actually touch their fingers and/or palm. You can't bend your thumb back to touch your wrist, most people actually can't even get it to or past 90 degrees from their palm.
Reverse in the thumb is and isn't a quicker release. Reverse in the thumb can theoretically be quicker release if you're bowling in space where there's no force or gravity on your hand and arm. All reverse REALLY does is make you grip or squeeze tighter to hold onto the ball throughout the entire swing, then precisely at the release you have to relax to get out of it . . if you have a proper length span and don't have to apply much pressure with your thumb to hang onto the ball, and it exits straight, less reverse is EFFECTIVELY a quicker release than more because of gravity, physics, and its resulting effects on the swing. More reverse makes you have to grip, squeeze, or put more pressure on the ball with your thumb to hang onto it throughout the entire swing.
Because we want the thumb to come out clean, leaving the fingers to create the roll, we need to achieve an EFFECTIVE quick (maybe not quick, clean) release rather than a theoretically quick (clean) release. That's what people have gotten backwards for so long. Yes, more reverse SEEMS like it would be a cleaner or quicker release, but people never factored the entire armswing into that. The less you grip through the armswing, the cleaner and quicker the release will be. Some people with a lot of reverse swear they aren't gripping it, but they really are, that's just what they're used to.
Then you have to figure out at what angle your fingers are most effective at also. There's a certain point your fingers like to bend to. Hold your hand by your side. Your fingers naturally curl, right? Straightening them requires use of muscles, and balling them or curling them more also uses muscles. May not feel like much, but straighten your hand, then ball your fist repeatedly several times, and you'll start feeling it in your forearm. It requires much less effort to angle the fingers close to the direction they most comfortably lay in, this will increase your stamina number one, plus allow you to hold onto the ball and get the proper rotation with the least amount of physical effort exerted. The physics of a proper armswing and release create all the rotation and speed you need without having to add muscle to it, and the less muscle the better. A natural, comfortable hand position will allow you to use gravity and the swing to your advantage, and in most cases create a better, more dynamic roll. Less muscle and stress on your hand equals better and easier repeatability for a much longer period of time.
Gizmo,
Some very specific questions I am interested in.
It seems that you are saying most bowlers hands that have anatomy that favors reverse fingers and 0 or near 0 forward reverse in the thumb.
By old theories of 0 forward reverse in the fingers(based on flexibility) and reverse in the thumb on spans over 4 1/4. These theories get the thumb out quickly and then let the ball to ride for a long time on the fingers if there is a flat spot
So some questons.
1. For the same hand that accommodates those old 0 pitch forward back fingers and reverse thumbs switched to reverse fingers and 0 thumbs what is the change in timing look like? How does the arc of the swing change to keep the balls on the fingers?
2. Does the span have to lengthen?
Thanks,
Luckylefty
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To specifically answer the questions:
1 - It's not hard at all to keep the ball on the fingers, I have 3/8 reverse, and it feels more comfortable. I am able to get more rotation on the ball using less muscle. You shouldn't feel like you have to grip or will fall out of the ball, you'd be very surprised how it actually feels. You might actually feel like you have MORE lift because the fingerholes are angled to where your fingers want to lay instead of having to wrap them under more for the finger pads to contact the front sides of the thumbhole. The swing shouldn't change much, aside from being freer and less muscled.
2. If you do both at the same time, the span shouldn't change much, BUT I'd remeasure to make sure the span is proper. Most people with reverse in the thumbs have spans that are too long. You have to have a comfortable fit with the thumb able to exit the hole straight with the socket of your thumb comfortably resting directly over the thumbhole. If you're stretching, the forces on your hand during the swing will exaggerate that.
Gizmo,
Some very specific questions I am interested in.
It seems that you are saying most bowlers hands that have anatomy that favors reverse fingers and 0 or near 0 forward reverse in the thumb.
By old theories of 0 forward reverse in the fingers(based on flexibility) and reverse in the thumb on spans over 4 1/4. These theories get the thumb out quickly and then let the ball to ride for a long time on the fingers if there is a flat spot
So some questons.
1. For the same hand that accommodates those old 0 pitch forward back fingers and reverse thumbs switched to reverse fingers and 0 thumbs what is the change in timing look like? How does the arc of the swing change to keep the balls on the fingers?
2. Does the span have to lengthen?
Thanks,
Luckylefty
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The problem is understanding saying a hole is 'pitched' at zero means nothing in relating to the span...too many do not understand angles
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Gizmo I appreciate your points.
Just Rico, I being an old Bill Taylor reader understand the angles concept. I don't know how many do not.
Thanks both.
I have an old ball...ready to be plugged....hmmmm?
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS bowling pretty good right now...but new ideas to try with a good hooking oldie...why not.
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Merely reading something and comprehending something are 2 different things...and trust me, more DO NOT understand them than do...stating a number means nothing in relationship to the true meaning of the angle
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Probably way over my head! (That isn't condescending on your part is it?)
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS from on high.
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Lucky,
What is trying to get at is that I could read a book on quantum physics, but reading and comprehending are 2 different things. I may pick up some buzz words, but the real meaning of it all will probably escape me.
Just a suggestion. What Ric tries to impart on you, you should probably soak it up like a sponge as opposed to sounding like a 14 year old teenage kid. I work in IT. I see people that do what you do every day. If you knew better than he, wouldn't you be doing it for a living? Wouldn't ball companies be knocking on your door asking you to work for them?
The man knows more than you, I, and am betting 99.99% of anyone else on this board. You want to bicker about stupid stuff, you just might very well chase off a valuable resource to this board.
But then, we can all go back to being ignorant to so many facets of bowling, and not actually learning. That's cool, I guess.
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Hmmmmm?
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS there are knowledgeable people who know how to deliver a message and others who don't. There is some funny science out here that is being promoted as gospel with questionable proof. (more coming from the USBC on this front soon I believe).
PPS I list as some of the best posters out here as Bullred, Gizmo, T-God over the years, there are others. I don't deny Just Rico's knowledge, absolute infallibility I question and the delivery methods.
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Let me say one thing in regards to that....I have posted on this forum for prolly close to 2 decades and for the most part I've always tried to be forthright and helped those that wanted or needed 'guidance'...along the way I know I have irritated a few...some on purpose
Now I do not or should I say no longer feel the need to prove much, more less myself to anyone...now if any message I may try to relay gets lost in some transition, I'm not sure where to go with that...I no longer care to argue with those that choose to accomplish much less or more than instigating an argument...I've given up the years of beating my head into the wall, to merely stop cause it feels good...those that I KNOW I have helped and continue to help, get my message...I do not apologize to anyone...we are ALL guided by our own light and path, a path that is created by our histories and lives....you have chosen to cross mine in the wrong way and I do not choose to 'care' nor apologize whether you get my message or not...I have little time to worry about the negatives but rather CHOOSE to key in on the positives and the positive people I influence...I wish nothing bad on you accept enlightenment and the opportunity to grow...it is up to you whether you do or not...I choose to EVOLVE....
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The smartest person doesn't know all of the answers. They know where to find the right answers. Too many times too many people choose not to accept the right answer for one reason or another.
It's okay to challenge what you are being told is truth. It doesn't always mean you're changing anything. Sometimes it just means you're stubborn. Don't over look the easy truths for harder misconceptions just to suite what you were hopping to find.
We have all done it.
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Lot of information in this thread, and I don't think anyone is entirely wrong because there are so many variables. One thing I don't think has been addressed is the change in optimum release over the years going back to pre urethane and resin days. When I was young the accepted theory on span was to really stretch out the grip, much more than today. There was some logic to it, because the best release was to hit up, but stay behind the ball to create end over end roll. Stretched spans with reverse on the thumb made some sense in that era. The optimum release has evolved to much softer off the hands where revs are created at the bottom of the swing without hitting up on the ball. The change in pitches, particularly on the fingers to away is most compatible with this type of release. As I said earlier, there is a strong relationship between thumb pitch and finger pitch. 1/4 reverse on the thumb, and 1/4 under on the fingers has the same relationship as 1/4 forward on the thumb and 1/4 away on the fingers. All that really happens is the weight of the ball shifts in the palm more toward the pads of the fingers. This shift is more compatible with not hitting up on the ball, especially for us old timers who had to unlearn 40 years of muscle memory to change our release.