Post by: Bjaardker on May 08, 2003, 04:35:40 PM
Caught this article & I thought you might be intrested in it considering how much ABS & D/T tout their Kangaroo Leather.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/05/07/state0001EDT0244.DTL
"Under a 1971 California law, a host of animals or their parts are barred from commercial sale in the state, the suit says. That law, found in the criminal code, includes elephant, crocodile, sable antelope, jaguar, cheetah and polar bear. California is the only state criminalizing the sale of kangaroo parts for commercial purposes"
Sounds like ABS might need a good lawyer
Post by: Jeffrevs on May 09, 2003, 07:43:52 AM
LIBERAL WHACKO STATE!! Period, end of discussion!! My God!
First they say:
quote:
"By using kangaroo leather for commercial purposes, Adidas is saying that it doesn't care about animals or about the law," said David Blatte, an attorney representing Viva! International Voice for Animals, whose United States headquarters is in Davis.
THEN, go on to say....
quote:
The animal rights group said Adidas uses the red, eastern gray and western gray varieties, which are legally hunted in Australia.
So what's the big deal ?
Give me a break!
--------------------
Jeff
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 07:46:56 AM
Initial thought...maybe its a good thing Phil works in a state that apparently has no such language in the statutes.
Also, could not the argument be advanced that the sale that takes place to a CA resident is for personal use, not commercial purposes.
Caveat: I'm too lazy to go look up California code right now, and besides, I don't live in the state
Post by: Bjaardker on May 09, 2003, 07:49:55 AM
The same way elephants were legally hunted for years in Africa, well after Ivory was made illegal for import. (I'm pulling this one out of my rear, feel free to prove me wrong.)
I have to disagee, there's nothing Liberal about that. It's a shame that whackjobs like that have tainted an entire political viewpoint.
From a bowling standpoint, I wonder if ABS will continue to sell shoes there in CA.
Post by: Jeffrevs on May 09, 2003, 07:53:29 AM
quote:
They may be legally hunted in Australia, but the goods from them can't be sold here.
.....but why ???
If an animal can be legally hunted in the country of it's origin, but can't be sold in another state in America ? I can't buy it because the government says so ? That's not liberal ? We'll just agree to disagree...that's cool too
--------------------
Jeff
Edited on 5/9/2003 7:53 AM
Post by: Bjaardker on May 09, 2003, 07:54:37 AM
quote:
Also, could not the argument be advanced that the sale that takes place to a CA resident is for personal use, not commercial purposes.
Not sure. If that were the case then Addidas could advance the same argument.
I think the only way you could make that argument is if no PBA pro & regional bowlers used them, and if those who did removed all distinctive markings of the company from the shoe.
However that also depends on the interpretation of "Commercial Purposes". I think it could be said that selling the good for a profit is a commercial purpose.
Post by: Bjaardker on May 09, 2003, 08:03:26 AM
quote:
That's not liberal ? We'll just agree to disagree...that's cool too
No, that's not liberal. It's the common misconception in our society that Whackjob PETA people should be lumped into the term liberal.
----------------------------------------
lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl) adj.
A)Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
B)Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c)Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
---------------------------------
lib·er·al·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr--lzm, lbr-)
n.
The state or quality of being liberal.
A) A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party.
B) An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.
C) A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology.
D) A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.
----------------------------------------------
It's a perversion of what being a liberal truely is to support such ridiculous laws. Liberalism is based on the belief that people by nature are good, not animals. It also believes in protection from arbitrary authority, this is pretty darn arbitrary.
Then again, this is a discussion for the non bowling forum.
Edited on 5/9/2003 8:04 AM
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 08:07:29 AM
The existence of the suit does not mean a violation of law has occurred. It simply means that a group came up with the money to pay a filing fee and other associated costs.
Even if a decision were rendered against Adidas, chances are that appeals would take a number of years, meanwhile Adidas continues to do business as usual.
Question: Is Adidas based out of California? Again, I am too lazy to check and I haven't worn Adidas shoes since the Carter administration.
Edited on 5/9/2003 8:06 AM
Post by: Jeffrevs on May 09, 2003, 08:09:31 AM
But,...California is a very liberal state, can't argue that one much....and, the group that is making the case if from California....it just figures.....
--------------------
Jeff
Post by: Jeffrevs on May 09, 2003, 08:15:49 AM
World of Sports
91074 Herzogenaurach
Germany
AND,
Adidas America Inc, is in Portland, OR
--------------------
Jeff
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 08:16:34 AM
VIVA= Vegetarians International Voice for Animals
It appears to actually be a British group that also runs a save-the-kangaroo site and makes heavy reference to the use of kangaroo in the manufacture of football (soccer) footwear. Their list of companies along with Adidas only makes reference to companies producing specifically named football (soccer) shoes.
Post by: AdrianS on May 09, 2003, 08:26:50 AM
--------------------
Do you want some of THIS!!!
www.totalbowling.com.au/www/live/2002australianopen/multimedia/adrian_shelton.MPG
Post by: seadrive on May 09, 2003, 08:26:54 AM
To tell you the truth, I've wondered from the first time I heard of these "kangaroo shoes" how long it would take before someone would challenge the ethics of encouraging the killing of kangaroos. Just because we're all so PC now, not because I abhor the killing of any and all animals. I like my filet mignon medium rare, thank you.
Some people want to ban sport fishing because a recent study indicates that fish feel pain. Once we prove that plants feel pain, there won't be anything left to eat other than artificially-produced food. We'd better hurry up and invent the Star Trek food replicator!
Post by: Bjaardker on May 09, 2003, 08:32:43 AM
quote:
Kangaroo meat tastes very nice too by the way!!! take that California. We've got a few too many so do what you like with the stupid looking things.
I LOVE kangaroo sausage. VERY tasty.
Post by: Steven on May 09, 2003, 08:34:02 AM
quote:
LIBERAL WHACKO STATE!! Period, end of discussion!! My God!
quote:
But,...California is a very liberal state, can't argue that one much....and, the group that is making the case if from California....it just figures.....
Jeff, I always get a kick out of these stereotypes tacked on to us residents of California. Yes, we have our share of 'liberal whakos' here, but they only seem like the majority because they make the most noise. Conservatives are more comfortable with their existence here, so they are a little more quiet. Remember, California is the home of Ronald Reagan. His presidential library is about 10 minutes from my house, and year after year the place still attracts huge crowds.
Back to this topic. As conservative as I am on most political topics, it's ethically and morally wrong to exploit the skins of endangered animals. We can argue interpretation of law all we want, but the 'smell test' of buying the skins of rare animals that should be left alone still doesn't pass.
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 08:37:22 AM
SB233 would amend the code as follows...(italicized and underlined would be stricken)
SECTION 1. Section 653o of the Penal Code is amended to read:
653o. (a) It is unlawful to import into this state for commercial
purposes, to possess with intent to sell, or to sell within the
state, the dead body, or any part or product thereof, of any
alligator, crocodile, polar bear, leopard, ocelot, tiger,
cheetah, jaguar, sable antelope, wolf (Canis lupus), zebra, whale,
cobra, python, sea turtle, colobus monkey, kangaroo,
vicuna, sea otter, free-roaming feral horse, dolphin or
porpoise (Delphinidae), Spanish lynx, or elephant.
Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of
a misdemeanor and shall be subject to a fine of not less than one
thousand dollars ($1,000) and not to exceed five thousand dollars
($5,000) or imprisonment in the county jail for not to exceed six
months, or both such fine and imprisonment, for each violation.
(b) The prohibitions against importation for commercial purposes,
possession with intent to sell, and sale of the species listed in
this section are severable. A finding of the invalidity of any one
or more prohibitions shall not affect the validity of any remaining
prohibitions.
Post by: Jeffrevs on May 09, 2003, 08:38:04 AM
HOWEVER,
If it's an animal legally hunted in Australia, then ............how can it be endagered ?? I'm not saying they are or aren't, but if they can be legally hunted, then how can they be endangered ?
--------------------
Jeff
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 08:42:22 AM
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_0201-0250/sb_233_cfa_20030421_144520_sen_comm.html
Post by: Steven on May 09, 2003, 08:49:05 AM
However, be careful of trusting what other countries do or don't do. Japan would have been happy to hunt whales into extinction if the USA had not stepped in. One of the great things about the US is that we sometimes take a broader view of an issue, and try to right the wrongs of others. We are not perfect and still make mistakes of our own, but the US (thankfully) has a more enlightened view of wild animal conservation than most other places in the world.
The moral of the story is to buy Dexters
If you can't get comfortable in a pair of SST's, then you have physical problems I'm not qualified to address.
Post by: Ishmael on May 09, 2003, 08:49:17 AM
http://www.savethekangaroo.com/
Post by: Bjaardker on May 09, 2003, 08:50:40 AM
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 08:56:48 AM
quote:
The moral of the story is to buy Dexters
Seems to me that Dexters were about to be available in kangaroo leather as well.
The fact of the matter is that Kalifornia is the ONLY state with this stupid regulation in place. Do they not sell python boots in that state? They sell them everywhere else...
Post by: omegabowler on May 09, 2003, 09:04:32 AM
I wounder if they taste good? I use to think Alligator were good for boots. but have you ever taste one? um um good.
I'm a member of PETA(People for the Eating of Tastey Animals).
-- in memeory of Dr. Atkins --
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 09:09:06 AM
quote:
I wounder if they taste good? I use to think Alligator were good for boots. but have you ever taste one? um um good.
mmm...fried alligator...mmm
Post by: Jeffrevs on May 09, 2003, 09:12:40 AM
Michelle, so the leg work you did is saying that Kangaroo IS ok now in California? yes ?
--------------------
Jeff
Edited on 5/9/2003 9:12 AM
Post by: Kevin on May 09, 2003, 09:14:52 AM
A retail sale is a sale made to the general public. It is not the same as a comercial sale.
--------------------
Winning and Losing are both very temporary things. Having done one or the other, we move on. Gloating over Victory or Sulking in Defeat is a good way to Stand Still.
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 09:18:19 AM
Jeff, kangaroo is still on the books. SB233 would have removed the prohibitions on kangaroo, alligator and crocodile. The analysis referenced other efforts to remove the language in something like 1984. However, it also looks like the current effort may be tabled because it looks like the author withdrew it for the second time after it had been set for discussion.
Post by: Jeffrevs on May 09, 2003, 09:21:19 AM
Well then, that means Nokona Sporting Goods of Nocona Texas, (softball/baseball gloves) are in violation as well because they have gloves made of Kangaroo and they sell them in California.......
--------------------
Jeff
Post by: Steven on May 09, 2003, 09:23:19 AM
quote:
The fact of the matter is that Kalifornia is the ONLY state with this stupid regulation in place.
"Kalifornia" has the well earned reputation for starting trends that the rest of the country eventually follows. Ironically, many of those are initially labeled as being 'stupid'. Regardless, living in a dynamic culture is one of the really great things about being here.
quote:
Seems to me that Dexters were about to be available in kangaroo leather as well.
I'm disappointed -- I went to the Dexter site get information on next generation kangaroo shoes, and to my surprise, nothing! In the mean time, support your local 'leather only' shoe company.
Post by: Doc Hollywood on May 09, 2003, 09:31:09 AM
In some cases it is even a felony. I know that the ban on mountain lions is a big case us sportsman are dealing with right now. Though it seems that the law isn't being enforced it can be and no one wants to take the chance.
--------------------
Doc
Owner and Inventor of
DOC'S MAGIC BOWLING BALL ELIXIR
For more information click on the link below
http://home.attbi.com/~docsmagic/
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 09:37:00 AM
quote:quote:
Seems to me that Dexters were about to be available in kangaroo leather as well.
I'm disappointed -- I went to the Dexter site get information on next generation kangaroo shoes, and to my surprise, nothing! In the mean time, support your local 'leather only' shoe company.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=26358&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5
Personally I consider Kim to be a credible source of information. I do not know what Dexter may or may not have on their website. 'course you could have found the same thread if you had performed a simple search.
Post by: Steven on May 09, 2003, 09:57:27 AM
quote:
They should be out in June (?) to the regular public (?)
I fall into that broad category of 'the regular public', just as most of us do. So for all intents and purposes, they are not in fact currently available. It's all speculation until I can get the shoes through a retail outlet.
You seem to enjoy promoting discussions and making conclusions based on "what might be's", but I live in a world where I move forward based on "what is". Those with experience know that it's not safe to assume anything until it actually happens. The world is a volatile place and decisions that appear to be set in stone can change quickly.
Even if Dexter does come out with kangaroo shoes, their regular leather should always be an option. That's all I can ask for as a consumer.
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 10:08:13 AM
Steven, what part of ABOUT to be available did you miss? Kim makes reference to a probable June release to the public...gee, June is only a few weeks away- sounds like ABOUT to me. And last time I checked, ABOUT is not the same as saying CURRENTLY available.
Either way, I am fortunate enough to live in a state that gives me a number of options instead of trying to cater to the PC crowd. Given the length of time the kangaroo statute has apparently been on the books, I would opine that other states do not agree with the direction that CA took who knows how long ago. Based on the bill analysis, it looks like it has been on the books since at least the early 80's and yet we have no other states that wanted to follow the "lead"? The criminalization is something that needs to go by the wayside...
Post by: Steven on May 09, 2003, 10:30:30 AM
And again, as I mentioned in my last post, even if Dexter follows through with the kangaroo leather option, they will still offer their tried and true regular leather shoes. I will still have a choice of which way to go and still be able to exercise my right not to wear kangaroo leather.
Post by: michelle on May 09, 2003, 10:46:07 AM
Some of us are able to take pieces of an equation and see the bigger picture. It doesn't always have to be a black and white or etched in stone matter such as you try to make things out to be, especially in this overall situation (you know, the legality of kangaroo).
Oh by the way, since we are on the subject and some may be interested...gotta put in my plug for the Tour Ultras marketed by that little ol' company located in San Antonio. Awesome. Worked great, even on the somewhat tacky approaches at Tiffany. No red heel needed. And comfortable beyond belief...
Post by: Bjaardker on May 09, 2003, 11:24:32 AM
quote:
Oh by the way, since we are on the subject and some may be interested...gotta put in my plug for the Tour Ultras marketed by that little ol' company located in San Antonio. Awesome. Worked great, even on the somewhat tacky approaches at Tiffany. No red heel needed. And comfortable beyond belief...
Yeah, but The red heel is prettier!
<---------me if I ever meet michelle 
Post by: Steven on May 09, 2003, 11:57:41 AM
quote:
Personally I consider Kim to be a credible source of information. I do not know what Dexter may or may not have on their website. 'course you could have found the same thread if you had performed a simple search.
Michelle: The real back and forth thing we have here started with your above reference to Kim's thoughts on the Dexter Kangaroos. You were hanging your hat on the credibility of Kim's statements. So it makes sense that the discussion revolves around what Kim said (NOT you) on the subject. You did not test the Dexter Kangaroos or get any input from Dexter on a possible release date, so why would this revolve around your statement? Why should this be hard to comprehend?
As far as your positive experience with ABS, that's great (I mean that). If you got them to work on tacky approaches, I can only assume you have more of a plant style than I do. I get solid heel contact when I slide, so rubber gives me problems, be it the ABS heels or the standard heel that comes on the SST5's. I find it interesting that the two poster boys for ABS shoes, Steve Hoskins and Jason Couch, have little slide built into their approach.
My only issue (other than less than stellar customer support) on the ABS shoes has been the lack of slide options on the heel. Dynothane too must feel there is a need (and market) for additional leather heel options, or they wouldn't add that option to the shoes.
Post by: dicnic on May 09, 2003, 02:34:15 PM
--------------------
What's with the Braille on a drive-up-ATM?
Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.