General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: badbeard on September 13, 2011, 11:00:15 PM
Title: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: badbeard on September 13, 2011, 11:00:15 PM
high average bowlers can't find a scratch league how about boll a handicap league which has a 116 % of handicap and insist in bowling on a league that you have a chance of losing for a change make your money on brackets and side pots let all teams have a fair chance of winning the league. MAN UP !!!!
United States Bowling Congress (USBC) defines handicapping as the means of
placing bowlers and teams of varying degrees of bowling skill on as equitable a basis as possible for competition against each other. Does any handicap used by a league equalize competition? The results of an extensive four year study of handicap leagues -- mixed, all women and all men -- disclosed that the handicap percentages 75%, 80% and 90% do NOT achieve this goal as illustrated by the results from the study as follows: Championship Won by Championship Won by Handicap Team with Average Below Team with Average Above Percent Median in the League Median in the League 70 0 out of 100 100 out of 100 75 0 out of 100 100 out of 100 80 0 out of 100 100 out of 100 85 6 out of 100 94 out of 100 90 11 out of 100 89 out of 100 95 24 out of 100 76 out of 100 100 30 out of 100 70 out of 100 Even at 100% handicap, as the above chart shows, the higher average teams or bowlers still have a decided edge. Seventy out of 100 championships are still won by the higher average team when 100% handicap is used. An exact 50-50 distribution of league championships would result only if a 116% handicap was used. You must always look at the difference in averages well as handicap. In the table the higher average team total is 73% or 223 pins higher than the lower average team. As shown below, when both teams bowl their exact averages; the higher average team always wins unless the handicap is 100%, then the teams tie. BASE 200 TEAM A TEAM B Average 80% 90% 100% Average 80% 90% 100% Linda 120 64 72 80 Dave 150 40 45 50 Dick 115 68 76 85 Patti 167 26 29 33 Kathy 95 84 94 105 Scott 185 12 13 15 Jeff 135 52 58 65 Terri 188 9 10 12 Sandi 142 46 52 58 Lisa 140 48 54 60 607 314 352 393 830 135 151 170 Average + 80% = 921 Average + 80% = 965 Average + 90% = 959 Average + 90% = 981 Average + 100% = 1000 Average + 100% = 1000
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: dmonroe814 on September 14, 2011, 08:51:07 AM
You can't argue with the numbers....
However, If I can go to the bowling alley, have 3 or 4 beers, bowl once a week and still beat the 230 average bowlers, what is my incentive to practice, focus, or learn how to bowl better? I have been bowling for 51 years, and the last couple of years, I have practiced more than I have practiced in my life. I now have my average up to 214. The top bowler in my house is at 240. The reason he is so good, is that he can repeat shots so well. He does that by practicing or bowling in tournaments every weekend and bowling in leagues 4 nights a week. I want to be able to compete with him, so I practice. If you want to compete with the high average bowlers, then to use your words, MAN UP!!!! Stop begging for more handicap and try to increase your SKILL. Stop looking for someone to give you pins. Handicap is meant to make you competitive, not make you better.
The more I practice, the luckier I get.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: txbowler on September 14, 2011, 11:25:40 AM
In my opinion, there are several classifications of bowlers:
group a - bowlers who strive to get better. bowlers who practice. bowlers who learn.
group b- bowlers who bowl once a week who have the talent to be better but never put in the effort to get better, but can on demand, up their level of concentration and produce above their average when needed on THS
group c- bowlers who are out to bowl with their buddies and drink beer. Want to average over 200 so they think they are good and want the ths to be as easy as possible.
group d - bowlers who for many reasons cannot average above 190 no matter how much coaching, practicing or great walls of china you give them. They cannot get any better. They are what they are.
group e - bowlers who have the skills and ability to manipulate the system and their averages to the best of their ability and are not afraid to do so. More commonly known as sandbaggers.
As far the USBC research is concerned, they want all of the above groups to have the same opportunity to win any league and that is where their 116% figure comes from. However, I would say, that the 116% figure is designed to assist group D against group A. The problem is no one wants to see anyone from Group E win anything, so the percentages get lowered to hedge against Group E, and Group D pays a huge penalty for it. But until Group E is fixed (and I do not have that solution), group D will always face that uphill battle.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: Jorge300 on September 14, 2011, 11:55:03 AM
Let me preface this by saying I am one of those "high"average bowlers. And I have bowled in a few handicap leagues, mainly to bowl with friends that aren't scratch bowlers. Now onto the topic:
I am not disputing any of your numbers or ones in your other thread (although I see no need why this has to have two threads devoted to it). And I agree 100% if you are talking about a singles league. But most of the leagues like this are 4 if not 5 person teams. When you add in the other averages and handicaps from them you are equaling out the advantage of one high average bowler. Plus if the league is based on a Peterson Points type of system, the high average bowler advantage only directly effects 1/4 to 1/5 of the total points (yes it is actually more, as their game goes into the team total, but they don't directly control that, the team does, the high average bowler can only directly control his/her own point. And it might even be less if you value the team game higher then an individual game).
This seems to be to be sour grapes from someone who thinks the handicap should allow them to compete with a 220+ average bowler rather then them going out and practicing and actually getting better. Well, sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you want to compete with the higher average bowlers, go out and put in the effort to get better. Work with a coach, practice on something other than THS, etc.
Jorge300
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: Tex on September 15, 2011, 06:43:04 PM
Txbowler and I are in the same league. This center does not, nor ever has had a scratch league. No reason to think it will either. The league is 80% of the difference in team averages. Yes the better (higher average) teams win every year. My team the last two, but that does not mean we always have the highest overall average or the winning team does. I think what makes Txbowlers team and ours some of the better in our league is a mindset, not just averages. We bowl as a team. We bowl well together as a group of 5 guys. We also bowl together in tournaments. We all bowl travel league and our Wednesday teams and travel teams are pretty close to the same guys in both. We also have fun while we are doing it. I don't think any of us like to lose or accept it as a possiblity, but don't go crazy if we have a bad night. We pick up the bowler that is down and don't step on each other. What I see too often of other teams is a defeated attitude, its all about me, talking **** to their own bowlers or lets party and think its going to get us the big money. Winning takes work and is a state of mind to some degree. This league has a lot of guys that are or were PBA members. Guys like Chris Johnson and DJ Archer have graced this league from time to time, so had our share of names. Just a 16 lanes center with a good reputation for competition. Its a fun league even though competitive and doesn't pay too bad in the end.
Would I bowl a league with 116%. Nope. Doubt I have to worry about that either.
Roll with 900 Global.
Made in Texas!
Edited by Tex on 9/15/2011 at 6:41 PM
Edited by Tex on 9/15/2011 at 7:48 PM
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: icefiction on September 15, 2011, 08:17:31 PM
It is impossible to dispute numbers, but even that being said my vote goes to those who think there is nothing wrong when you get beat on a regular basis by someone who is better than you. I understand the desire for a level playing field but really, what other sports have such a system in place besides golf. Normally when I play a sport I expect to lose when I play against someone who is better than me, why should I win, they have more talent, more ability, and more experience. It makes me try harder, aspire to be at their level.
I will never forget two experiences that I had when I was working in the shop, together they sum up the majority of bowlers attitudes towards practicing and put work into the sport we play.
Customer 1:
I want to get better, I have averaged 180 for two years now and I just cant seem to move up. I recommend some lessons to evaluate the bowler and their skills. First response I get is, I really don't want to practice I don't have time, do you think wearing sun glasses like that guy on my Monday night league will help?
Customer 2:
I watched my friend shoot 300 last night, he was using a virtual gravity, I want one too and drill it the same way. Pretty common, so I don't try to get a lot of info out of the customer, I just give him what he wants. I lay out the ball and show him before I drill it, the customer tells me the pin is on the wrong side of the fingers, so I ask him if his teammate uses his right or left hand, turns out his teammate is left handed and he is right handed. Do I have to tell you how long I fought with him about not duplicating the left handed layout with weight hole exactly the way his buddies was. When it came down to it he told me he just wants to shoot 300 and he knows this ball will let him do it but only if its laid out exactly the same way.
Between those two customers I gave up on trying to convince stubborn people that bowling is a game of skill and requires a lot of time and practice to master.
So when someone tells me that they should just get pins so they can shortcut the time and effort that others have put into our sport, you wont get much sympathy from me. If our sport is to grow then we need to convince bowlers that its worth the time and effort, instead of making it effortless and giving them the ability to shoot scores that are beyond perfect and then inflate their egos.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 15, 2011, 08:25:53 PM
Or when you bowl one of the handicap league throw off half the year and use your handicap the second half of the season?
It is all the same. If you want everything equal pick a different sport. Or get a better team.
"1 of 1."
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: The Bowling Pariah on September 15, 2011, 09:07:20 PM
Mr. Beard,
Are you serious? 116% handicap. REALLY?
WHY? Isn't the 90% you and your cronies "fought for" enough for you?
Let me recap something for you. TECHNOLOGY has already made it possible for you to join the ranks of people capable of averaging 200, and that wasn't enough.
So, you and your bunch decided to force a 90% handicap down the throats of the people you still couldn't beat, trying to tilt the playing field even further in your favor, and THAT wasn't enough.
NOW, you are even starting to mention a handicap that would even PENALIZE people with those "high averages" you seem to hate.
You say it isn't "sour grapes", because you average 200 yourself, but it is, you can tell it from your tone and attitude towards the subject.
You are hinderd, and limited, by your own lack of physical ability, and you want somebody to come along and hand feed you something you can never get on your own.
Quit crying about how "unfair" it is that somebody is actually better than you, and go do something constructive about it, like IMPROVE YOUR OWN SKILLS.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: badbeard on September 15, 2011, 09:51:58 PM
Iwork on my game all the time and I bowl in 4 different houses go to nationals and bowl in state tournaments and senior tournaments. and yes I have beaten the high average bowler from time to time. I like to shoot pot games scratch where I know it takes 230 up to win also in a house that I don't bowl league in . I travel to the nearest house 12 miles then 24 miles and 40 miles one way so I make an effort. The reason I started this thread was to get people thinking again. looking at studies is one way to get information that is not he said she said. take it for what it is worth
think about it or forget about it. facts are facts it is just that ! I see league play shrink every year and would like to see the leagues full again.. How about you ?
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: The Bowling Pariah on September 15, 2011, 11:40:24 PM
I worked on my game for years. Bowling in travel leagues, different leagues in different houses, pot games that lasted until dawn, state tournaments, and PBA regionals. The only thing you've done, that I have not, is bowling nationals, and I always wanted to, just never had the money and the time at the same time.
Studies are just that, nothing more than studies. They offer information from the observers point of view, and are aimed at trying to prove the points of those doing the studies. If those studies are based on a false supposition, the studies themselves will not be equitable, but will be biased towards the opinion of those doing the study.
I see the leagues shrink every year as well, but it has little, if anything, to do with the handicap. Leagues were full in the past, but handicaps were only 80% of 200 back then too, so it can't be that, can it?
I think the shrinking leagues are a product of our "virtual reality", instant gratification, what have you done for me lately, society. People don't want to EARN things anymore, they just want to run to the corner store and "get" them, and I believe that is what is going on in our bowling society today as well.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: chatnboy on September 16, 2011, 01:15:03 AM
you have a "rainbow"of bowlers in league nowadays...and everyone has teir own agenda!!!unless you and your "team"have the same mind...you will never accomplish the goal of beating those higher average teams!!!like others ave said....practice is pramount....but the whole team must also desire that same mindset or you will no goanywhere!!!
Go hard or go home!!!!!Bowl your best...ALWAYS!!!
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: Maine Man on September 16, 2011, 01:25:04 AM
I am a high average bowler, love scratch bowling, and run a monthly scratch tournament here in Maine you can link to from my signature, and I love to compete. But, handicap leagues face challenges to appease both low and high average bowlers, and there are two main points on handicap I would like to touch on. 100% Handicap (or in this case 116%) does (2) things:
1) Does nothing to discourage sandbagging, period. In fact, it almost promotes it to an extent. At 100%, a bowler could throw 10 pins below their normal average for the entire first half of the season, and get a team of 5 players doing it, then that's 50 sticks a game, or 150 sticks for a three game set. That is only (1) missed spare per person on the team, per game, and there is NO WAY you could prove intent with that low of a number, but you can see how big of a difference it makes when you add it up for an entire team. Now, this same team, once they get enough games in at the end of the first half of the season, can start bowling well again because their averages won't go up as fast since they have probably 45-50 games in on the season. This means they have the benefit of extra sticks they wouldn't normally have if they weren't sandbagging, and can dominate the second half of the season and win the league. Go to 90% handicap, for example, and since you get less sticks the lower your average is, compared to a bowler at the average cap, then there isn't as much incentive to sandbag, period. If you are going to get penalized pins for intentionally bowling below your average, then why do it?
2) It also does not encourage lower average bowlers to improve their game. I feel like the bowlers who put in the time and become good at the sport of bowling deserve some sort of reward for their effort, and that can be in the form of handicap that is less than 100%. A 140 average bowler has no incentive to get better if they are getting the same amount of pins per game as the guy averaging 235. I feel this is wrong, and by making the handicap a lower %, you are encouraging that 140 bowler to get better, so that they will be penalized less pins by increasing their average. Now, people will tell me that many bowlers don't want to spend the time getting better and should not be forced to do so based on the handicap system. Well, I say to them that why even bowl a league for prize money and awards if you don't want to get better? Just go in and have a few beers and bowl open practice instead. It works both ways with that argument, so don't even go there. I don't like handicap % lower than 90%, as that is enough to discourage sandbagging while not penalizing lower average bowlers to the point where they have no shot at winning anything. 80% handicap is WAY too low and should never be used in my opinion.
The one thing any study doesn't realize is that yes, in theory 100% handicap would "level the playing field", and the USBC study was still saying that even at 100% handicap the higher average team still wins more of the time. But, this is because the higher average team is more CONSISTENT from game to game and bowler to bowler, hence the higher averages, so that is why they win more games and not because of the handicap. USBC says handicap should be around 116% (which the OP pointed out) to make the field truly "fair", which is absolutely crazy. You think people sandbag now, try and run a league with that kind of handicap system, it will be out of control, and the league will lose bowlers faster than they do now I can assure you of that. If you don't like losing pins at 90% handicap, stop whining, put in some practice time and get better, period, end of story.
I also agree with what txbowler wrote, unless the USBC wants to seriously police sandbagging, the only way to combat it is to drop handicap % and force bowlers to want to get better. I have no problem wanting to get better each season, do you?
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: trash heap on September 16, 2011, 09:03:14 AM
Not every bowler does get better. They are going to be at that 140 - 170 range their entire life. Some have no clue about the game. They just go up and throw the ball, and yeah they have a couple of good nights a year (and its those nights that ticks off the high average player: "He has a 150 average, he must be bagging!".).
The study shows high average wins most of the time even at 100%. Isn't that good enough for you! The odds are still in your favor. You want to get better, I am the same. It's because you are a better bowler that gives you the edge at 100%. Let these low average teams have a chance. We need these people in this sport.
It's okay for a low average team to be in first place in a HANDICAP league. It rarely happens now.
I truly believe most bowlers are not trying to cheat in a league.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: TWOHAND834 on September 16, 2011, 09:43:11 AM
I am going to add something to this also. In all the handicap leagues I have bowled in, I have not seen one team that was stacked with 4-5 230 bowlers. I tend to see one guy who is 220-230 bowling with 3-4 others that are 190ish. The percentage of 230 bowlers to the overall size of the league is so minimal. Each league is different of course. The one I bowl in has 34 teams of 5 and the number of guys averaging that 230 number is a total of 3, a couple of which arent really 230 bowlers; but more like 215 types that are just off to really good starts so far. There are a few others in the 220s but also bowling out of their minds and reality will set back in in the next few weeks.
Here are some numbers for YOU!! 34x5=170 bowlers. Roughly 10 out of 170 are 220; half of which will finish the year in the 210 area. About 75% of the league is between 170 and 200, about 10% is 210+, and the rest are handicappers.
Regardless of the handicap numbers you show, unless there are stacked teams where the team average is 1100+ for 5 man teams or 880+ for 4 man teams, the handicap argument really doesnt mean much. My team that I bowl on, our team average is just under 1000 for 5 guys and I am averaging 225. Most of the teams in the league right now, even with a member at 220+, are around 1000, give or take some pins.
NOW........if you bowl in a league where you have 100 bowlers and 30 of them average under 170 and 30 average 220+, then I can see the issue. But, when the total number of 220+ bowlers comes out to less than 5% of the league, then there is nothing to argue over. It is a team sport and 1 guy on a 5 member team is not going to guarantee them making the rolloffs.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: spmcgivern on September 16, 2011, 11:09:34 AM
I hope people understand when USBC states "higher average" teams, they mean those teams higher than the league median. So in other words, in a 30 team league, 15 teams are considered higher average. Not the top 5, 15. The statement of equality is for the lower half of the league. It isn't intended to combat the top 5, but the top 15. By saying you want to have 100% + handicap is saying you feel the team with the lowest team average should have a chance to win the league, irregardless of how bad they are, how little they try, or how drunk they get during the night. They should be given the same chance as everyone else in the league.
I'm sorry if I don't feel that way. I don't mind teams in the upper half winning the league, they often do as the study shows. But the study doesn't say having 90% handicap eliminates 25 teams in a 30 team league.
I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: jimc on September 16, 2011, 01:01:35 PM
I've been bowling in the same handicap league for 15 years. Average is usually between 215 - 220, not that high but for several years running was1 or 2 in the league. The nearest competitor is my teamate. The other 3 are your casual decent bowler of 160 - 180. We've never won the league. I believe a big reason is our league uses 90% of the difference of team averages. Individual handicaps are only used for handicap awards. Any thoughts on that?
The bottom line is handicap leagues are designed to be fun. If a premium was put on winning there would be a major difference in prize fund between 1st and 3rd, (like scratch leagues) and there's not.
Not every high average bowler has the passion and desire to only bowl scratch/tournaments even though they could be competative - just like not every hot shot church league softball player desires to play A league even though they could compete. Fun is the name of the game.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: trash heap on September 16, 2011, 01:05:12 PM
Let's be clear on one thing here. We are discussing this handicap issue on those big "Money" Leagues. Although I prefer 100%. There should be nothing below 90%.
Can we agree that in a Mix League Environment (Mostly Fun League) that 100% of "highest average in league" is the way to go? Keeping games close is what that type of league needs.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: The Bowling Pariah on September 16, 2011, 01:37:26 PM
And you know this HOW? Mr. Beard never makes mention of what type of league he is referring to, only that anything less than 100% handicap is somehow "unfair".
And, as to your comment, how about this: If your average is more than 5% lower than the highest average in the big "MONEY" league, then don't enter it and expect someone to make it "fair" for you by giving you something you didn't earn.
If you want to try to win it, get in and try. If you don't, then keep your money and stay out. But, don't get in with your low average and then expect me to just roll over and give the thing to you by spotting you 116% of my score, just because I might be better than you.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: trash heap on September 16, 2011, 02:51:51 PM
Changed reply. (Red)
Let's be clear on one thing here. We are discussing this handicap issue on those big "Money" Leagues. Although I prefer 100% in any handicap league that is using "THS" pattern. There should be nothing below 90%.
Can we agree that in a Mix League Environment (Mostly Fun League) that 100% of "highest average in league" is the way to go? Keeping games close is what that type of league needs.
As I have stated before. Shooting big scores on THS is something anyone that averages 185 - 210 can do. The big games are thrown but there is usually a couple bad games (keeps their average where it is). In my opinion there is more fluctuation in scores with this group of bowlers on the THS then those with higher averages and those in the lower end. Person with low skills does not have ability to exploit the easy pattern, they are just not consistent enough to put up a fight against this group. The higher average bowler skills puts them at an advantage even at 100% handicap.
As far as bagging goes. Lowering the percent isn't going to stop a bagger. They will just lower their average more for the cushion they need.
Just stating the record. I have bowled in scratch tournaments. Only handicap tournments I bowl are local association, states, and a local doubles tournament.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: toomanytenpins on September 16, 2011, 03:41:13 PM
I think this is gonna be a long thread. My two bits is as follows.
I have bowled in leagues the last couple of years with cap at 100% of 220. If you have no cap you are more a burden to your team than the person with 80 pins by a long shot. Its pretty demoralizing when someone with 110 pins shoots 800. How often are you with your 220 avg likely to shoot 800,and even if you say once a month if you have to cappers get lucky on the same night and with their cap they shoot seven hundred a piece you lose. Maybee its just me ,but looking at a 300 pin deficit before a ball has rolled kinda zaps my energy. I know I am whining,but I bet I am not the only one feeling like this. I have the wrong attitude,it should be,"attack!" I just havent gotten there yet,beating up on handicappers just doesnt come easy. The level of competition isnt the same and its hard for me to raise my level up when I see such really bad bowling,more times than not ,after a few,here come the pros,and awe they are gonna beat us good ,and so on I usually bowl worse. I want to win,but ...I used to always bowl bad when I bowled against older people and, I know someones gonna wanna slap me,and women. I am learning to seperate and not think about who I am bowling. The flip side to that is before you know it in an attempt to win, you have 0 pins,and as was already said there are no scratch leagues.
Now I doubt, try as I might that I ever avg. 210 let alone 230+,but it really does put more pressure on you knowing you have to to compete. Awe shoot,big dumby,thats why you bowl. Sorry to anyone who read this,time to go bowl 690.
my style, the art of bowling without bowling
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: The Bowling Pariah on September 16, 2011, 04:03:56 PM
YES,
we can agree that "fun" leagues are one thing, and "money" leagues are another.
HOWEVER,
where is the incentive for the newer, or lower average, bowlers to work and improve their skill level if you simply "give" them enough free pins that they can keep up with you and, possibly, even beat you, on a regular basis? AND, where is "MY" incentive to continue to get better in order to beat you anyway, when you're only going to demand back any improvements I make in my average?
DOES GETTING BETTER AND IMPROVING YOUR AVERAGE EVEN MATTER ANYMORE?
I want people to bowl, and I want people to have fun and love the game like I have. Nothing would please me more than to see a resurgence in the game, and waiting lists to even get into leagues again. Heck, I used to have to wait on a list for an open lane on saturdays, just to get to practice Thing is, I really don't see taking all the incentive to get better out of the game as any type of resolution.
Handicap is what it is, a way to "give the small guy a chance", not hand him something on a silver platter, and ANYBODY that thinks extremely high handicap %'s based on trying to make things "fair for everyone" are good, are just deluding themselves and trying to justify something that, in their OPINION, is the "right thing to do".
And maybe, Mr. Beard from a town with one 16 lane center, the choices are very limited for the bowlers there, and those "high average guys" don't have any choice except to bowl in those leagues you mentioned, especially when guys like you are turning ALL the leagues into leagues like that.
Sorry if I have offended anyone in this debate, that was never my intentions, but it is something that I honestly believe is being beaten into the heads of bowlers nowdays. No need to learn a lot of skills, just show up, have some fun, and we'll make those mean old "high average" bowlers give you so many pins that you can beat them, because they don't "deserve" to win anyway.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: icefiction on September 16, 2011, 05:37:33 PM
It is very obvious from the discussion that there are two main thoughts about this matter:
A- People should actually be encouraged to work hard to increase their ability and skill level, instead of being spoon fed.
B- Making things easier for the less skilled makes them more inclined to participate because they feel they have a better chance at beating someone that is genuinely better than they are.
If you think there are other categories please feel free to add them.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: Tex on September 16, 2011, 09:19:30 PM
I was curious as to where our league sets after averages are set to start the year ( we set after 6 games ). Currently league average is 200.15 for 65 bowlers. 38 bowlers over 200 (5-230, 7-220, 12-210,14-200) and 8 in the 190's. That leaves just 19 bowlers under the 190 and a lot of these guys are 180's or high 170's. Only one team does not have at least one bowler with a 200 average. Two have a single 200, one has two 200's. There are 2 teams that all 5 guys are plus and another that will have all 5, just lead off has got off to a slow start (well except for the perfect game he tossed at my team this past week). All others have 3 bowlers over 200. And this is not a scratch league! Makes you wonder why doesn't it.
So, our league is not exactly typical for a handicap league or sure doesn't seem to be from what I hear you guys saying on here. Yep, its a money league by the descriptions given throughout this thread. I guess then it should make sense why we are still at 80% handicap and also why we do difference in team averages instead of from 220 or a set number. The other leagues in our center are all mixed but can't say I have any idea what they use for handicap. They are all fun leagues with little if any money at the end. Oh and if it also hasn't been clear it is still a Men's league only. During the summer we have opened it up at times but most of the time only guys bowl then too. The men part seems to make us unique these days as well. I can see where the mixed leagues would do higher but even then I think 90% is plenty. I am pretty sure our travel league is 90% and there are some serious baggers in that league. I bowled in a 100% league years back and the high average teams had no or little chance to win, just could never make up the handicap no mater how we bowled. Personally I like the league I am in. I am the secretary and have been for longer than I would like to admit. We have never had it proposed to increase the handicap, but no one listens to the rules anyway so don't see it changing.
Roll with 900 Global.
Made in Texas!
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: badbeard on September 16, 2011, 10:02:58 PM
to bowling Pariah you said
Handicap is what it is, a way to "give the small guy a chance", not hand him something on a silver platter, and ANYBODY that thinks extremely high handicap %'s based on trying to make things "fair for everyone" are good, are just deluding themselves and trying to justify something that, in their OPINION, is the "right thing to do".
Is handicap also a way to give a 10 to 20 % advantage to the high average bowler ? i did not think it was a way to hand the league to the high average bowlers on a silver platter. the reason i started this was to get people thinking as i bowl on a men league which is 90% of the difference of team average. And I bowl on a senior where I get no handicap because I have a 205 average. This is the time of year when bowlers have a chance to make their leagues better if they will speak up in the league meetings. Most have never seen the usbc study or what they recommend they just vote to leave things the way they have been. and then bitch all season. Have a great season and good bowling to you and all who took their time to answer this post. Thanks Badbeard ( nick name from my racing days )
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: The Bowling Pariah on September 16, 2011, 11:51:32 PM
HUH? "Is handicap also a way to give a 10% to 20% advantage to the high average bowler?"
Did you just really say that? Don't you realize the difference?
THE DIFFERENCE IS, THE HIGH AVERAGE BOWLER WENT OUT AND EARNED THAT 10% TO 20% ADVANTAGE FOR HIMSELF THROUGH HIS OWN HARD WORK AND EXPENSE.
He did not have it handed to him on a platter like you seem to want to do with the lower average bowlers that you think "eaarned" it simply by paying their league fees. You want to give them an equal chance to win, simply because they pay the same fees each week? How misguided is that?
Part of it seems to come to light in your statement "And I bowl on a senior where I get no handicap". SO, you are a senior bowler, with a 205 average, that wants the world to make things "fair" for you, so you can stand a chance against 30 year olds with 220-230 averages? HAVE YOU LOST TOUCH WITH REALITY?
There is NO WAY you should be able to keep up with that. Even the great Walter Ray Williams has had to admit that to himself. I'm almost there to the true senior status (51 yrs old), and I want to beat them youngsters too, but I do not want to cheat them out of it. I do hold my own at times, but there is NO WAY I could ever hope to beat them on a regular basis.
You cannot make leagues better by cheating the better bowlers out of the skills they worked so hard to develop by forcing them to give it all away with some bogus definition of "fairness", you can only cause them to either leave your league, or become sandbaggers, either of which is bad for the league and bad for bowling in general, and you STILL wouldn't be able to beat them.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: Gunny on September 17, 2011, 06:02:03 AM
Well said Pariah! Handicap is there to get the low avg. bowlers close, and that they must do the rest. That's what I was always taught as a youngster, and that if I wanted to compete or beat them higher avg. guys, than I must practice and learn. I avg around 215, and I pot bowl with them 230+ avg guys, get into scratch brackets against them, and at times I win, and there's times I lose. But I sure as heck don't want it handed to me or them.
I matched up this past week with the league leader in avg. He's been whacking them lately and is averaging 260. I didn't bow down to him and give up. I tried my hardest to beat him and I did all 3 games. I shot 704, and he shot 693. He opened in the tenth the last two games, and that was the break I need to jump all over him. And afterwards we shook hands and he stated good bowling in the tenth to take those two games away.
Most don't have that mentality though. They would rather have the game given to them instead of trying to win it. Every night I bowl, I want to bowl against the best, to not only test my abilities, but bowling the best will make me that much better.
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Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: Nicanor on September 17, 2011, 08:14:33 AM
Why do we talk about evening out the game with handicap? I realize handicap is keeping the game alive and somewhat fair, but what happened to the best man/women win? I know thats what scratch leagues are for, only if there were scratch leagues anymore. Giving handicap should be a way to keep scores close, not to give advantage to the lower average bowler that can get lucky with a couple of strikes and beat you because of handicap.
I think leagues need to have handicap, but not at a rate to scare off high average bowlers. There needs to be a medium where the handicap bowler is competitive, but not set up to win, and the scratch bowler that really needs to work hard and win.
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: badbeard on September 17, 2011, 08:37:44 AM
i don't care if I don't get handicap on the senior league. you are taking this too seriously as i said before this was to get minds opened up. not to pit the great talented young gun against the older bowlers well past their prime. if You want the advantage as a high young bowler you have it but when you are older like 70 and you no longer have the speed you once had and can not score because your hand shakes now maybe you will understand, sorry to see you only see the world from your side of the fence but as we all do if we bowl as long as we can you will cross over that fence and see the other side. bowl well score well be all that you can be
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: Tex on September 17, 2011, 09:56:31 AM
One thing in all the low vs high average on here that I don't recall seeing is the odds of a lower average bowler bowling over their average. It just seems to me that for one thing a for example 220 average bowler has a maximum 80 pins they can shoot over. The odds of that bowler doing that is greater than in the past, but still not likely. Take a 170 average and they could shoot 130 over and odds are only slightly lower these days that they won't do that, but there is a good chance they will shoot 80 over for a 250 game. That difference in odds a bowler will bowl over their average is what makes the 80% make more sense. The 170 bowler only has to shoot 204 to make up the 20% if the scratch bowler shoots average. I would think the odds of that is pretty good with todays scoring enviroment. I might even toss out it is more likely the 220 will bowl under average or at least has a greater chance he will shoot under than the 170 or will shoot under by a greater margine.
Does that seem at least logical? Maybe this is the part that makes the 116% seem rediculous.
Roll with 900 Global.
Made in Texas!
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: toomanytenpins on September 17, 2011, 12:50:54 PM
it does, in my experience,happen quite more frequently that a person averaging 120 shots 50 pins over their avg.then a person averaging 220,even 200. I am a 200 avg. bowler and that is more becasue of the occassional good game than even consistentcy. I have as many bad games as I do good games,when I dont shoot avg. we lose.When I shoot 20 pins over the results are usually better but not always. If I shoot 140 what happens. If a 120 avg. bowler shoots 100 thats still 200 and I have so much further to fall on a bad night the results do add up to a loss more times than not.
my style, the art of bowling without bowling
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: jthales on September 17, 2011, 02:09:24 PM
What is average mean? If I bowl 50 over I will hav just as many or more 50 under but U dont member those scors, just the high 1s when I get lucky nuff to win.
Title: Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues
Post by: The Bowling Pariah on September 17, 2011, 02:51:53 PM
Mr. Beard,
You say I am taking this too seriously. It seems to me that YOU took it seriously enough to get a higher % handicap pushed through in your league. Now, you seem to want to claim that it was your concern for the older generation that "can't keep up". Well, like I said, I'm 51 now, my abilities have diminished, and they will continue to do so. That is a sad fact of life that I have to be a big boy and face up to.
You and I have different views and mindsets. I realize that I am getting older, and also that there will always be a new generation to come along and replace me. That's the way it always has been, and the way it was meant to be, so I am good with that. Instead of being envious of the "young guns", and expecting them to give me enough pins to let me keep up with them through artificial means, I do what I can, and simply watch with awe, appreciation, and amazement at what they are able to do.
I KNOW WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF, BECAUSE I WAS CAPABLE OF IT MYSELF ONCE.
I do not envy them their skills and abilities, I APPRECIATE THEM. I taught many of the good ones here how to bowl in the first place. When I was the "young gun", they were the "new guys" who wanted to learn how to bowl, who wanted to know what it took to be "that good", and it was my great pleasure to help them in every way that I knew how. In many cases, the students have surpassed the teacher, but I don't feel cheated, or taken advantage of, at all. It has ALWAYS been my goal to help people enjoy this sport/game as much as I possibly could, by whatever means I could, as long as it was a constructive situation.
WE ALL GET OLD, THAT'S THE WAY LIFE IS. OUR TALENTS DIMINISH AS WE AGE, AND IT IS UP TO US TO BE ADULT ABOUT IT AND DEAL WITH IT.
I truly hope I still CAN bowl when I'm 70 years old, but I sure as heck don't think I'll be able to average 220 then, nor do I believe that I should be able to beat guys who can. I'll do then what I do now, bowl for the simple love of the game.
Its never been about purely winning for me anyway, but I've been told I'm a "rare bird". I bowl for no other reason than a pure love of the game. I wanted to know everything that was knowable about it, I wanted to be the best I possibly could be, and I wanted to help everybody else be the best they possibly could be as well. Then I wanted to "shoe up"and see just where I really stood face to face, one on one, mano y mano, and may the best man (or woman) win.
I've won leagues, shot some honor scores, and made a few bucks, but you know what my proudest moment in this sport is? Its NOT the 700 series I shot at state one year in singles. Neither is it the 800 series I finally was able to shoot. It was that night, a long time ago, that one of the best bowlers around here at that time came up to me and told me he had noticed me, and that he was going to have to keep his eye out for me in the future. It was a magical moment for me, a "right of passage" of a sort. It meant that I had achieved notariety, that I had become a "threat", that I had done something for myself that no amount of handicap could ever accomplish. I will never forget that moment.
Sorry this got so long, but things like this are important to me. I spent the greatest majority of my adult life learning everything I could about this sport, and developing my skills to the greatest extent possible for me, dreaming about someday possibly being a professional bowler on national TV, and I almost made it. As things worked out, that just wasn't meant to be for me, but it never, for even a moment, dulled my enthusiasm for the sport or for those who were fellow competitors.