Have an span of 5 and 5 1/8 using 1/8 rev 1/8 lat just not releasing as clean as I like 3/8 and 1/4 seems too much thinking about 0 and 0 to take some grab at the bottom of the swing need some in-put please.

Ah, but here's the issue.  Just lay your hand flat on the table, all your fingers point the same direction.  0 in the fingers requires you to bend your fingers further under towards your palm.  You don't need to bend them that much to get the effective lift.  Also, your thumb isn't nearly as flexible as your fingertips.  Most people can bend their finger tips under and actually touch their fingers and/or palm.  You can't bend your thumb back to touch your wrist, most people actually can't even get it to or past 90 degrees from their palm. 

Reverse in the thumb is and isn't a quicker release.  Reverse in the thumb can theoretically be quicker release if you're bowling in space where there's no force or gravity on your hand and arm.  All reverse REALLY does is make you grip or squeeze tighter to hold onto the ball throughout the entire swing, then precisely at the release you have to relax to get out of it . . if you have a proper length span and don't have to apply much pressure with your thumb to hang onto the ball, and it exits straight, less reverse is EFFECTIVELY a quicker release than more because of gravity, physics, and its resulting effects on the swing.  More reverse makes you have to grip, squeeze, or put more pressure on the ball with your thumb to hang onto it throughout the entire swing. 

Because we want the thumb to come out clean, leaving the fingers to create the roll, we need to achieve an EFFECTIVE quick (maybe not quick, clean) release rather than a theoretically quick (clean) release.  That's what people have gotten backwards for so long.  Yes, more reverse SEEMS like it would be a cleaner or quicker release, but people never factored the entire armswing into that.  The less you grip through the armswing, the cleaner and quicker the release will be.  Some people with a lot of reverse swear they aren't gripping it, but they really are, that's just what they're used to. 

Then you have to figure out at what angle your fingers are most effective at also.  There's a certain point your fingers like to bend to.  Hold your hand by your side.  Your fingers naturally curl, right?  Straightening them requires use of muscles, and balling them or curling them more also uses muscles.  May not feel like much, but straighten your hand, then ball your fist repeatedly several times, and you'll start feeling it in your forearm.  It requires much less effort to angle the fingers close to the direction they most comfortably lay in, this will increase your stamina number one, plus allow you to hold onto the ball and get the proper rotation with the least amount of physical effort exerted.  The physics of a proper armswing and release create all the rotation and speed you need without having to add muscle to it, and the less muscle the better.  A natural, comfortable hand position will allow you to use gravity and the swing to your advantage, and in most cases create a better, more dynamic roll.  Less muscle and stress on your hand equals better and easier repeatability for a much longer period of time. 

Gizmo,

Some very specific questions I am interested in.

It seems that you are saying most bowlers hands that have anatomy that favors reverse fingers and 0 or near 0 forward reverse in the thumb.

By old theories of 0 forward reverse in the fingers(based on flexibility) and reverse in the thumb on spans over 4 1/4.  These theories get the thumb out quickly and then let the ball to ride for a long time on the fingers if there is a flat spot

So some questons.

1.  For the same hand that accommodates those old 0 pitch forward back fingers and reverse thumbs switched to reverse fingers and 0 thumbs what is the change in timing look like?  How does the arc of the swing change to keep the balls on the fingers?

2.  Does the span have to lengthen?

Thanks,

Luckylefty

The problem is understanding saying a hole is 'pitched' at zero means nothing in relating to the span...too many do not understand angles

Merely reading something and comprehending something are 2 different things...and trust me, more DO NOT understand them than do...stating a number means nothing in relationship to the true meaning of the angle

Lucky,

What is trying to get at is that I could read a book on quantum physics, but reading and comprehending are 2 different things. I may pick up some buzz words, but the real meaning of it all will probably escape me.

Just a suggestion. What Ric tries to impart on you, you should probably soak it up like a sponge as opposed to sounding like a 14 year old teenage kid. I work in IT. I see people that do what you do every day. If you knew better than he, wouldn't you be doing it for a living? Wouldn't ball companies be knocking on your door asking you to work for them?

The man knows more than you, I, and am betting 99.99% of anyone else on this board. You want to bicker about stupid stuff, you just might very well chase off a valuable resource to this board.

But then, we can all go back to being ignorant to so many facets of bowling, and not actually learning. That's cool, I guess.

Let me say one thing in regards to that....I have posted on this forum for prolly close to 2 decades and for the most part I've always tried to be forthright and helped those that wanted or needed 'guidance'...along the way I know I have irritated a few...some on purpose
Now I do not or should I say no longer feel the need to prove much, more less myself to anyone...now if any message I may try to relay gets lost in some transition, I'm not sure where to go with that...I no longer care to argue with those that choose to accomplish much less or more than instigating an argument...I've given up the years of beating my head into the wall, to merely stop cause it feels good...those that I KNOW I have helped and continue to help, get my message...I do not apologize to anyone...we are ALL guided by our own light and path, a path that is created by our histories and lives....you have chosen to cross mine in the wrong way and I do not choose to 'care' nor apologize whether you get my message or not...I have little time to worry about the negatives but rather CHOOSE to key in on the positives and the positive people I influence...I wish nothing bad on you accept enlightenment and the opportunity to grow...it is up to you whether you do or not...I choose to EVOLVE....

Lot of information in this thread, and I don't think anyone is entirely wrong because there are so many variables.  One thing I don't think has been addressed is the change in optimum release over the years going back to pre urethane and resin days.  When I was young the accepted theory on span was to really stretch out the grip, much more than today.  There was some logic to it, because the best release was to hit up, but stay behind the ball to create end over end roll.  Stretched spans with reverse on the thumb made some sense in that era.  The optimum release has evolved to much softer off the hands where revs are created at the bottom of the swing without hitting up on the ball.  The change in pitches, particularly on the fingers to away is most compatible with this type of release.  As I said earlier, there is a strong relationship between thumb pitch and finger pitch.  1/4 reverse on the thumb, and 1/4 under on the fingers has the same relationship as 1/4 forward on the thumb and 1/4 away on the fingers. All that really happens is the weight of the ball shifts in the palm more toward the pads of the fingers.  This shift is more compatible with not hitting up on the ball, especially for us old timers who had to unlearn 40 years of muscle memory to change our release.