BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Dogtown on September 13, 2013, 10:12:17 AM
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Has anyone seen USBC discipline someone (or team) for sandbagging.
We have a team on our men's league that is intentionally throwing off. Guys who average 200+ shooting less than 100 multiple games. Throwing plastic balls all game. Picking off 10 and 7 pins ON THE FIRST BALL.
Our whole league was up in arms last night because it has gotten so obviously. What do you do? What does USBC need to show proof? This is my first year on the league. Apparently this team has won the league before by sandbagging the first half, then showing up the second half.
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you change your league to an "Invitational" League and don't invite them back.
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You could vote to throw the team out of the league.
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Put in a league rule where a bowlers current average can't fall below their entering average without a majority vote of the captains.
But that would need to be done at the beginning of the league probably since the captain of the offending team would not agree to the rule change.
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One of my leagues has a 5 pin drop rule and we are invitation only. Works pretty well.
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Pin drop rule is a good solution, but as stated this would have to be voted on by the board. Or you could adopt a rule where your averages don't re-establish until after a certain amount of weeks, we use 3 weeks in our men's league, you could make it more weeks where it would penalize them for not coming close to their averages.
Either way both suggestions would have to be voted in by the league
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Call the USBC and ask them.
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I've been through this before. Its a long story, so I won't go into the whole thing. In the end the USBC won't do anything. You can bring them up for dismissal, and have a league vote. (I don't recall, but I think you need a 2/3 majority). In my case, most teams felt that the cheating was obvious, but felt expulsion was too extreme. So despite everyone encouraging me to take this up for vote, most didn't have the backbone to stand up to the cheater. On a good note, he stopped sandbagging after that.
In the ABC rule book (old version), rule 17A covered unfair tactics, defined as intentionally bowling under a person's average to gain an advantage in league or tournament play.
I had to right a formal complaint to the President of the league, and list the charges. I presented a very convincing argument with lots of data, and even a re-rate from a tournament. There was literally no doubt he was cheating. The most important factor is whether the other team captains will act, or not.
Good luck if you take that route, and be prepared for some backlash. Doing what is right, isn't always popular.
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Our local USBC assn. manager has re-rated noted sandbaggers in our local assn. tourney.
The franchise owner of the Milw. ABT has re-rated ABT bowlers when he thought they were under-performing. Don't think that ABT franchise owners also don't communicate to each other when franchises are in close proximity that so and so has been throwing off. ;)
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This is a team effort for sandbagging not just one bowler.
The thought is when USBC is required to make a backbone decision they will not. Most in the league understand that, it is still sad that USBC will not do anything. (got to keep money coming in from your bowlers right?)
I like the idea of re-rating your averages. Say quarterly. Still has a team you can pick and choose who to slack off and when. No allowing them back seems the smarter choice.
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I am not sure I see a difference between individual sandbagging or a team effort, in the fact that you can bring each person up on rules violations. Perhaps if you get one or two of the worse offenders removed from the league, the others would follow.
There was a person in town caught in the distant past using a book average for his right hand when he was an accomplished left-hander. He was caught bowling left handed in an out-of-state tournament, and lost his ABC card for a 10 year suspension. So there are actual occasions when the governing authority will take action.
This is a team effort for sandbagging not just one bowler.
The thought is when USBC is required to make a backbone decision they will not. Most in the league understand that, it is still sad that USBC will not do anything. (got to keep money coming in from your bowlers right?)
I like the idea of re-rating your averages. Say quarterly. Still has a team you can pick and choose who to slack off and when. No allowing them back seems the smarter choice.
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I would think that since your a sanctioned league, contact the local USBC or State office and talk this over. Ask if one of them would visit the league during competition and then ask them for a direction. Also remind them that your paying for their support and expect something be done. In Dayton a few years ago we did this and the bowler was without a(ABC card) for two years.
It can be done, but you need to continue to supply information, videos are easy these days and if possible last years records to see if that pattern is developing in the same manner. You will have to do the dirty work, as others will not, they will just complain and move on.
Also remind the rep from USBC, that next year the league could be unsanctioned as easy as being sanctioned. The state rep will be a lot more helpful.
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Has anyone seen USBC discipline someone (or team) for sandbagging.
We have a team on our men's league that is intentionally throwing off. Guys who average 200+ shooting less than 100 multiple games. Throwing plastic balls all game. Picking off 10 and 7 pins ON THE FIRST BALL.
Our whole league was up in arms last night because it has gotten so obviously. What do you do? What does USBC need to show proof? This is my first year on the league. Apparently this team has won the league before by sandbagging the first half, then showing up the second half.
Guessing you do not have the option of making this league scratch in the future, so here is a few more ideas.
(1) Change the format to quarters, and the roll off to the top team from each quarter, so perhaps they have bowl for 3/4 of the league. Probably still have a way to jack it up, though...
(2) Make the league a progressive league, where the teams are bowling the ENTIRE LEAGUE, EVERY GAME! Bag all you want and you will end up in last...
(3) Lower the percentage on the handicap base to 70%. Cost them sticks for every pin they throw away.
(4) Break their legs in the parking lot after league (JK)
Good luck! USBC lost its teeth and willingness to stand up for what is right a long time ago IMHO...
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There's a guy who was in our Jubilee League who was caught having 3 different USBC cards all with his first and last name spelled slightly different. Same person 3 different averages. He was the anchor on a team that's won the league the last 3 years professsional sandbaggers. A meeting was called and a USBC representative from our local association made this info known during the meeting and needles to say the team captains voted 27 to 1 to kick the guy out the league. Things have changed sandbagging is out of control. His teammate averaged 225 on Tuesday Night league and on the Wednesday Night Jubilee he averaged 181 same house same condition they kicked him out also.
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For the original poster,That doesn't sound like even sound like good sandbagging!
Easy to catch and react to. Even an USBC official could catch that!
Call em!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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One has to wonder how much sandbagging and winning the league with a team of sandbaggers is worth? It can't be a heck of a lot of money? Now if a sandbagger goes into a large tourney individually or as a team and falsifies his/her average then I can see it being worth the effort but not for a hdcp average bowling in a league. I am not speaking of high dollar leagues but in my experience most high dollar leagues are scratch.
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One has to wonder how much sandbagging and winning the league with a team of sandbaggers is worth? It can't be a heck of a lot of money? Now if a sandbagger goes into a large tourney individually or as a team and falsifies his/her average then I can see it being worth the effort but not for a hdcp average bowling in a league. I am not speaking of high dollar leagues but in my experience most high dollar leagues are scratch.
Cheating is cheating, is it not?
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One has to wonder how much sandbagging and winning the league with a team of sandbaggers is worth? It can't be a heck of a lot of money? Now if a sandbagger goes into a large tourney individually or as a team and falsifies his/her average then I can see it being worth the effort but not for a hdcp average bowling in a league. I am not speaking of high dollar leagues but in my experience most high dollar leagues are scratch.
Cheating is cheating, is it not?
Yep but what reason would anyone have if not for some type of remuneration? It surely would not be to win a hdcp league?
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Set up your prize fund that pays each half where you finish--not just overall. Also, don't have your prize fund automatically make both half winners 1st or 2nd. If a team loses the roll-off they get money where they finish overall.
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The rules go to overall games after the 1st half and 2nd half teams bowl each other.
So if the team in question lost the roll off they would fall to near the bottom. When you have guys averaging 20+ pin below the previous book averages on any other league it isn't a lock to win the roll off but it is a close to a lock as you can get.
The example of the sandbagging would be a bowler shooting 240-250 for game 1 then sub 100 the following 2 games. You can see how their average wouldn't be hard to shoot. This is the kind of sandbagging that is going on.
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Around here ther is decent money in the handicap leagues. 500 per team per quarter plus 7000 in one house to the winning team and 10000 in the other. 2000 per man of you win is not exactly chump change. Even in the 7000 dollar league each man gets 1400.
There is definitely sandbagging going on. Not much that you can do about it unless it is flagrant like you describe. I would file a written complaint with the league and force them to address it. If they say it's ok then it's not cheating. You have to then decide for yourself whether to play by those established rules to win or to bowl your best each time out.
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I don't know about USBC punishments, but our league decided to let the team captains challenge averages for incoming members. This came into play this week when a guy with a 183 book average (on a sport shot) was re-rated as a 220 bowler by the league captains. The reasoning here is that there are bowlers who bowl up to (but not more than) 20 games in a number of leagues and average 220+, but only book in one league where they average in the 180s or 190s. I know of two such bowlers, and one of them was the guy that the league re-rated. They evaluated a composite of his other averages (which was 220+) and went with 220. The bowler himself didn't care much and we only use book averages for three weeks anyway, but I think it's a good rule that we instituted this season.
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Around here ther is decent money in the handicap leagues. 500 per team per quarter plus 7000 in one house to the winning team and 10000 in the other. 2000 per man of you win is not exactly chump change. Even in the 7000 dollar league each man gets 1400.
There is definitely sandbagging going on. Not much that you can do about it unless it is flagrant like you describe. I would file a written complaint with the league and force them to address it. If they say it's ok then it's not cheating. You have to then decide for yourself whether to play by those established rules to win or to bowl your best each time out.
This is what I was asking when there is a large amount of $$$ to be made then yes that is where the issue of sandbagging will exist...leagues and tourney's.
In my neck of the woods hdcp leagues are just that recreational hdcp leagues for once a week bowlers. In fact this year I suggested to one 5 man hdcp recreational league 30 weeks that we drop to just above the lineage enough to pay sec. treas fee ($275/yr) and ancillary fees don't build a prize fund and bowl for a trophy or plaque. Keep it fun, keep it cheap and you will keep sandbaggers out of your leagues there is no remuneration so no point in throwing off.
Think about it in this example say you pay $16/night for 30 weeks. Lineage is say $13 sec treas makes .18 cents a bowler per night and say another .07 cents a night per bowler for ancillary (fun nights, etc) that makes .25 cents per night per bowler so you are bowling for $2.75/night x 30 = $82.50. I say drop the $82.50 because in a 10 team league thats about what you are going to get back if the league isn't top loaded and paid thru out the league evenly....ie. point money, round winners, singles, doubles and a league could pay in a bit more for the dbles/singles portion if you want to keep that. My point is your are putting in this $80+ bucks and then basically getting the same money back distributed as a prize fund. I say get rid of that and you are keeping the $$$ in your pocket upfront. It's more like paying into the IRS thru payroll deductions and letting them keep your money until tax time rolls around so you can get a larger refund.
If you want high dollar payouts make it scratch and you don't have to worry about it. I am unsure why bowlers would want to bowl large money hdcp leagues and can see why sandbagging exists in these situations. Take the temptation away and no issues or problems.
Just some thoughts.
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Starting last year USBC rules allow the board of directors for a league to re rate any bowler with 2/3 vote
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The USBC does nothing. I personally sent a request to the USBC regarding a bowler who average between 215-230 in all leagues with less than 21 games and averages 175 in the one league with more than 21. There reply was that those average do not matter due to lack of game and totally dismissed this as a case of sandbagging. Sad to see that this guys has been doing this for at least 5 years straight and it shows up under his ID number but the powers that be do nothing. Nice eye opener for me, I now shoot 180 in league...hahahaha....
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If you sandbag you are a *UCKING *SSHOLE -- I CANT STAND YOU!!! I try my best each and every time I step on the approach. The sandbaggers have ruined league bowling. I was on a summer league where the 1st place team threw off so there buddies could win 2ND on the last position nite, so we ended up in 3rd. If you can't play fair -- get the hell out of bowling!!!
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Has anyone seen USBC discipline someone (or team) for sandbagging.
Because ABC's AND USBC's record for handling sandbaggers is non-existent, as far as I know and as far as I have seen, people will continue to do as you describe with ZERO fear of retribution. I believe this is at least one situation where both the old and the new organization has fallen on its read end, very badly. I understand it's hard to prove, but this is not a court of law. I also believe it's one more aspect of the sport of bowling where integrity and ethical behavior has been allowed to lapse.
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Every one seems to look to the USBC to do something about the sandbaggers. Your local association does have the power and authority to address this issue if they choose.
The Capitol Association here in the MD/Dc area formed a rerate committee a few years ago to address the local baggers.
The suspected baggers were all sent notices of the average rerate and given an opportunity to contest the rerate. The majority on the list had their averages adjusted up. Some of the bowlers were given a lifetime rerated averages.
There are rules in place where sandbagging can be addressed in local leagues and associations. For some reason it rarely happens. I assume that is because it is easier to complain and blame the USBC than to have the backbone to address the baggers locally and in person.
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Most assume that is what the USBC is for. If the USBC doesn't make that suggestion and simply says we can't do anything most would assume that's all that can be done.
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Every one seems to look to the USBC to do something about the sandbaggers. Your local association does have the power and authority to address this issue if they choose.
The Capitol Association here in the MD/Dc area formed a rerate committee a few years ago to address the local baggers.
The suspected baggers were all sent notices of the average rerate and given an opportunity to contest the rerate. The majority on the list had their averages adjusted up. Some of the bowlers were given a lifetime rerated averages.
There are rules in place where sandbagging can be addressed in local leagues and associations. For some reason it rarely happens. I assume that is because it is easier to complain and blame the USBC than to have the backbone to address the baggers locally and in person.
In the 4 or 5 associations (local counties) of which I have been a member, each time a sandbagging incident came to their attention, they refused to do anything except pass it back up the ladder to the National organization, which, of course, in turn, did nothing, saying that sandbagging wasn't "proved". From the words they used in denying the allegation, the only "proof" they seemed to accept was either the sandbagger's word that they were sandbagging or someone reading their minds to the same effect. I wonder where we supposed to get a mind reader???
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Here is a link to Caps website about how they addressed the local sandbagging issue and the process that they used. http://www.ncausbca.org/bowlmag/archives/rerate_q-a.pdf
Most tournament rules allow the director to re rate a bowler if they see fit.
If you read the article about how Cap went about it you will see that they had supporting documentation to support the re rates. From what I have seen normally all we hear about is someone is sandbagging but nothing to support the accusation.
And as far as league bowling goes a new rule was put in place last year to allow the board of directors to re rate a bowler with 2/3rds vote. there is no proof needed to do that. Just enough team captains agreeing that someone is a sandbagger.
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You can't go after someone who just has a bad night or a few bad nights. You have to establish that the bowler is doing this on purpose.
Example: The first year as a secreatary of a league, my average dropped considerably. Those first several weeks were tough on me. I was averaging in the the 160s. My average in other leagues (as a sub) that year was over 200. As soon as things settle down, my average did go up.
It would have been real easy for someone to point me out. I was clearly 30 plus pins below my average. It was not intentional. I was trying my best, I just had a lot of distractions those first several weeks with the new duties of the position.
There are times you can clearly see when someone is cheating, but most of the time its hard to find the true sandbaggers. They are sneaky. They come out for the big money, and then squirm back into their hole again. They purposely don't win every time. They don't want to call attention to themselves. It's all about the money.
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Valid point Trash Heap. Some of us are up and down, depending on what is going on in our "real world" outside of bowling. Last year I averaged 184, but on a good week, or a week where I have had time to practice spare shooting, I generally will average 210-220. It has everything to do with how much I have had time to practice, and whether I am making spares. Fortunately, the people that I bowl with realize my tendencies and do not raise the issue of sandbagging with me. Right now I am struggling to average 170, and feel like I am going to break through any minute.
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Our league has a 10 pin drop rule. If you avg 200, you cant go lower then 190 no matter how bad you bowl. Plus throw them out of the league, take a league vote and get rid of them.
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Trash Heap is it sandbagging to shoot 250 then two sub 100 games using plastic and shooting at corners pins? This is what is being done. 210 plus average bowlers selectively using plastic over their other equipment after a good game.
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Is it sandbagging to choose to use your league as a practice session?
There is no rule against it. Sure it is highly unethical. (or is it)
But as a bowler (not saying me specifically) who has no time to practice due to outside constraints, what are you supposed to do? It is a catch 22 of sorts.
You use league to practice and better your game, but you score terrible, you are told you are sandbagging. But you are trying your best to improve your game, you just are not trying your best to score that night.
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Yes practicing shooting at 7 pins and 10 pins on your first and second rack is sandbagging. Especially after bowling a high game. It isn't practice. Try that this week in league for two or three games and tell us how that goes.
The league is pretty upset because this is going to be a 3rd your and this year is more obvious then ever. It is my first year on the league and find it amusing. The team captain was an on staff regional player for years who never averaged over 210 for a reason. Then over the past few years averaged 170s and went and cashed big in larger regional tournaments. He never bowled the local ones because they would rerate him. Then they still vote him in the local HOF.
Some people thrive on cheating when they can't do it otherwise I guess.
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It's pretty clear, right in the USBC rule book-
Rule 17 – Grounds for Disciplinary Action
17a. Unfair Tactics
An individual can be charged with attempting to gain an unfair advantage in league or tournament play for the following reasons:
1. Directly or indirectly tampering with lanes, pins or bowling balls so they no longer meet USBC specifications.
2. Misrepresenting an average to gain a greater handicap, or qualify for a lower classification in an event.
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or classified competition.
Penalty: Loss of games, prize winnings, league removal (see Rule 115a or Rule 115c), and subject to suspension from or denial of USBC membership.
NOTE: A complaint may be filed only in the current season or the season immediately following the alleged violation. The complaint shall be in writing and detail the charges against the member(s) and the USBC rule(s) involved. The complaint shall be signed by the person(s) making the charges and filed with USBC Headquarters.
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First off let me say I personally 100% agree that shooting at 7's & 10's off of full racks is wrong. That is a violation of rule 17.
But so is the following technically in my opinion according to rule 17.
You show up for league and the pro shop is finishing up your new ball. You don't get to throw it in practice. You decide to pull it out for the fill ball of the 10th frame of game 1.
You just violated rule 17. Why, because you could have thrown the strike ball you were using to maximize score. By changing balls to an unknown reaction, you are (potentially) not maximizing score and thus lowering your average in that league.
And yes I realize that I am taking this example to an extreme. And that is what could happen the first time a player is called out for violating this rule. He will walk up and down the lanes looking for small other violations to get even.
These guys have "some major stones though". It's very blatant.
Most sandbaggers are more quiet about it. Shoot the 3-6 pocket instead of the 1-3 for a game, or intentionally go through the nose all night. Shoot at the 3 instead of the 10 pin when they leave it, so it looks like they were "trying".
Picking off the corners of full racks for a game? I would have recorded it on video and sent it to Arlington. Kind of hard to have an excuse for it.
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Then you should include a PITA rule during the league meeting. If bowler if found guilty of being a PITA by a majority of the board, kick them out. ;D
First off let me say I personally 100% agree that shooting at 7's & 10's off of full racks is wrong. That is a violation of rule 17.
But so is the following technically in my opinion according to rule 17.
You show up for league and the pro shop is finishing up your new ball. You don't get to throw it in practice. You decide to pull it out for the fill ball of the 10th frame of game 1.
You just violated rule 17. Why, because you could have thrown the strike ball you were using to maximize score. By changing balls to an unknown reaction, you are (potentially) not maximizing score and thus lowering your average in that league.
And yes I realize that I am taking this example to an extreme. And that is what could happen the first time a player is called out for violating this rule. He will walk up and down the lanes looking for small other violations to get even.
These guys have "some major stones though". It's very blatant.
Most sandbaggers are more quiet about it. Shoot the 3-6 pocket instead of the 1-3 for a game, or intentionally go through the nose all night. Shoot at the 3 instead of the 10 pin when they leave it, so it looks like they were "trying".
Picking off the corners of full racks for a game? I would have recorded it on video and sent it to Arlington. Kind of hard to have an excuse for it.
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+1,000,000,000,000,000 ;D
Then you should include a PITA rule during the league meeting. If bowler if found guilty of being a PITA by a majority of the board, kick them out. ;D
First off let me say I personally 100% agree that shooting at 7's & 10's off of full racks is wrong. That is a violation of rule 17.
But so is the following technically in my opinion according to rule 17.
You show up for league and the pro shop is finishing up your new ball. You don't get to throw it in practice. You decide to pull it out for the fill ball of the 10th frame of game 1.
You just violated rule 17. Why, because you could have thrown the strike ball you were using to maximize score. By changing balls to an unknown reaction, you are (potentially) not maximizing score and thus lowering your average in that league.
And yes I realize that I am taking this example to an extreme. And that is what could happen the first time a player is called out for violating this rule. He will walk up and down the lanes looking for small other violations to get even.
These guys have "some major stones though". It's very blatant.
Most sandbaggers are more quiet about it. Shoot the 3-6 pocket instead of the 1-3 for a game, or intentionally go through the nose all night. Shoot at the 3 instead of the 10 pin when they leave it, so it looks like they were "trying".
Picking off the corners of full racks for a game? I would have recorded it on video and sent it to Arlington. Kind of hard to have an excuse for it.