Author Topic: USBC E-mail surveys (Read 12452 times)

the_scarlet_pumpernickel · « **on:** April 19, 2017, 10:34:57 AM »

Did anyone else get one of these surveys about lane conditions, bowling equipment? you should check your e-mail to see if you got one. It asked a lot of questions about whether bowling was challenging enough, whether lane conditions are too easy. What is everyone's take on this survey? was it good enough? any questions you would have asked, not asked? did you even get it? do you think they will really use it's results to a positive end?

I think they are just confirming on paper what everyone already thinks. There's no way they don't know what bowlers have been saying about league vs. pro lane conditions, resin balls/dynamic cores being too strong, 2 handed good or bad etc... I would like to have seen more detailed questions about ball durability, which is arguably not as good anymore.

Olderdude · « **Reply #76 on:** April 24, 2017, 12:31:12 PM »

Just saw Riggs posted on his blog "USBC working towards possibly proposing more stringent ball technology rules"

So maybe what the survey is about

** Just read the blog, lots of quotes from Chad Murphy (from his facebook post) talking about exactly what we have been discussing here

ITZPS · « **Reply #77 on:** April 24, 2017, 01:06:16 PM »

It's much easier to get other leagues together. If a summer scratch or sport league is what you're trying to work out to get butts in seats, that's a failing center. Yes, it takes a lot of work to get a scratch/sport league up and keep it running. By and large though, it's MUCH easier and much more profitable to run different leagues.

And this is EXACTLY my point. Cultivation of bowlers improving their skills DOES NOT HAPPEN this way. All the scratch and "elite" bowlers do nothing but run these people off. The average bowler HATES HATES HATES scratch bowlers. Scratch bowlers are the ones killing off exactly what they think they're trying to preserve. Had a group of egos in here bowling the state tournament yesterday with their fancy High 5 shirts with all their sponsor patches on there and all in matching slacks and their wristers and compression sleeves and KT tape taking 2 lane courtesy and glaring at people "lane jumping" them and making a big show of everything they did and the people bowling around them weren't happy, not to mention they really didn't end up bowling that good anyway. The average bowler HATES that, and avabob makes a good point when he says that house shots are still hard to 90% of bowlers ANYWAY. Scratch bowlers however are just content to sit back and whine when something isn't going their way instead of DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have dozens of people in town whining about handicap and how bowling is going, so the center put together a scratch league last summer, got two teams. Put one together this summer, 6 teams but it's just a DOUBLES league.

Bottom line is all the egos just whine and do nothing. They think they ought to bowl for free and get everything handed to them and have everyone else do all the work because "they're good and they deserve it." Again, putting the screws to the bowling companies, who are the ones supporting competitive bowling in the first place, isn't a good idea. People will be pissed.

Quote from: Steven on April 23, 2017, 03:53:57 PM

Quote from: ITZPS on April 23, 2017, 03:34:28 PM
That's a good point and I completely agree BUT the return on all that effort is usually low, and the better the bowler, the more time you put into them and less you get out of them. The scratch or tournament bowler is someone that is virtually worthless to the bowling center.

Centers hate empty lanes. They'd rather have 12 lanes booked during mid-week 9:00pm dead time than an almost guarantee no activity. Add some high margin beer and food sales that otherwise wouldn't happen, and it's not a bad deal for the center.

The point is that these leagues can and do happen with passionate grass roots effort. The major longer term benefit I see to the center is the cultivation of bowlers still developing their skills. They practice more and many end up bowling more leagues than they otherwise would. That's not a bad thing.

tommygn · « **Reply #78 on:** April 24, 2017, 01:21:50 PM »

Quote from: ITZPS on April 24, 2017, 01:06:16 PM

It's much easier to get other leagues together. If a summer scratch or sport league is what you're trying to work out to get butts in seats, that's a failing center. Yes, it takes a lot of work to get a scratch/sport league up and keep it running. By and large though, it's MUCH easier and much more profitable to run different leagues.

And this is EXACTLY my point. Cultivation of bowlers improving their skills DOES NOT HAPPEN this way. All the scratch and "elite" bowlers do nothing but run these people off. The average bowler HATES HATES HATES scratch bowlers. Scratch bowlers are the ones killing off exactly what they think they're trying to preserve. Had a group of egos in here bowling the state tournament yesterday with their fancy High 5 shirts with all their sponsor patches on there and all in matching slacks and their wristers and compression sleeves and KT tape taking 2 lane courtesy and glaring at people "lane jumping" them and making a big show of everything they did and the people bowling around them weren't happy, not to mention they really didn't end up bowling that good anyway. The average bowler HATES that, and avabob makes a good point when he says that house shots are still hard to 90% of bowlers ANYWAY. Scratch bowlers however are just content to sit back and whine when something isn't going their way instead of DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have dozens of people in town whining about handicap and how bowling is going, so the center put together a scratch league last summer, got two teams. Put one together this summer, 6 teams but it's just a DOUBLES league.

Bottom line is all the egos just whine and do nothing. They think they ought to bowl for free and get everything handed to them and have everyone else do all the work because "they're good and they deserve it." Again, putting the screws to the bowling companies, who are the ones supporting competitive bowling in the first place, isn't a good idea. People will be pissed.

Quote from: Steven on April 23, 2017, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: ITZPS on April 23, 2017, 03:34:28 PM
That's a good point and I completely agree BUT the return on all that effort is usually low, and the better the bowler, the more time you put into them and less you get out of them. The scratch or tournament bowler is someone that is virtually worthless to the bowling center.

Centers hate empty lanes. They'd rather have 12 lanes booked during mid-week 9:00pm dead time than an almost guarantee no activity. Add some high margin beer and food sales that otherwise wouldn't happen, and it's not a bad deal for the center.

The point is that these leagues can and do happen with passionate grass roots effort. The major longer term benefit I see to the center is the cultivation of bowlers still developing their skills. They practice more and many end up bowling more leagues than they otherwise would. That's not a bad thing.

The very fact that you keep dealing with absolutes, is what is WRONG with bowling, and society in general.

Glad you KNOW exactly what ALL bowlers want and what's best for ALL bowlers all across the country.

And one last point, mixing scratch bowlers with handicap bowlers is EXACTLY what we do with a summer league here, and the league has the highest retention of bowlers, and has the highest participation of players of all summer leagues in our area. Also, the summer king of the hill tournaments that are run on USBC White pattern, and or "modified house conditions", has more entries EVERY week, compared to the King of Hills run on house conditions. We have used one of the USBC white patterns for going on about 8 years now, for our youth league. Our league has had less drop off than ALL the other youth leagues in our area.

But keep speaking in absolutes as you seem to know it all.....

Olderdude · « **Reply #79 on:** April 24, 2017, 01:28:12 PM »

Quote from: ITZPS on April 24, 2017, 01:06:16 PM

All the scratch and "elite" bowlers do nothing but run these people off. The average bowler HATES HATES HATES scratch bowlers. Scratch bowlers are the ones killing off exactly what they think they're trying to preserve. Had a group of egos in here bowling the state tournament yesterday with their fancy High 5 shirts with all their sponsor patches on there and all in matching slacks and their wristers and compression sleeves and KT tape taking 2 lane courtesy and glaring at people "lane jumping" them and making a big show of everything they did and the people bowling around them weren't happy, not to mention they really didn't end up bowling that good anyway. The average bowler HATES that, and avabob makes a good point when he says that house shots are still hard to 90% of bowlers ANYWAY. Scratch bowlers however are just content to sit back and whine when something isn't going their way instead of DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself "Elite" I win some and lose some like everyone else and I have people running out shots (especially on a house shot), slapping them off, and taking two lane courtesies. I have no problem with people matching shirts and slacks.

I think one thing is clear, something is changing at the USBC. They are going to start restricting balls (which you say isn't a good idea) or you are going to see tougher oil patterns so the ball companies like yours Storm/Roto Grip can continue to make money on their equipment.

Your tag line says you're a proshop manager so you would some feel for what bowlers want better than I do so if you say 90% bowlers think house shots are still difficult I'll defer to you

tommygn · « **Reply #80 on:** April 24, 2017, 01:41:37 PM »

Finding the proper balance between fun leagues, birthday parties, scratch and or tournament play, and open play is the key to a successful business. When you focus on only one option, or alienate an option, you aren't really thinking about the big picture, and bowling as a whole. Unfortunately, without a mix, what may seem to be ok right now, will catch you on the hind end, later.

Itzps, I do have a question for you. If all these bowlers are all about just having fun, and they hate scratch bowlers so much, just because we are so called elitist, then why would it even matter if their scores are recognized by a governing body anyway? Your argument is against a tiered system that allows bowlers to just have fun, allows true competition and allows for something in between; so who is it that actually has ego's that needs protecting?

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #81 on:** April 24, 2017, 03:27:34 PM »

Later has already passed. Most of bowling is in a race to the bottom right now. In all but the best of centers the league base is terrible and open play customers think it's 1990 and anything over $2.00 a game is highway robbery.

One of my contacts told me today "bowling is crashing faster than I even thought it would ." And this is from someone that has always been realistic about the future.

ITZPS · « **Reply #82 on:** April 24, 2017, 05:59:48 PM »

My argument is not against that, I'm just more realistic about what's actually possible. My argument is for allowing people to have fun bowling the way they want to. Some people want to chuck the ball down there and watch it hook, some people want brutally tough conditions that challenge them. My point is that the very second you start telling people what they're going to do and funneling them one way or the other is when you start losing them. I spend the vast majority of my life in a bowling center, and when I'm not in a bowling center, I'm making videos and on Facebook and answering texts, messages, and comments. I talk to dozens of people a day, so I feel like I've got a pretty good idea what every group wants. Some things aren't realistic or possible regardless of whether or not that's the way it should be. Games like bowling and golf have zero absolutes, one course or condition that is challenging to one person may be simple to another. Mandate a certain condition, sure, but it may play completely different at one house than it does at another. There are too many ideas that sound great in theory but don't pan out when you try to realistically apply them.

You have all the heads at USBC who spend all their time around like minded people who want more restrictions and tougher this and tougher that, but at the same time you have lifetime 170 average bowlers who things are already tough enough for. Bowlers also vote by attendance and their money, and increased difficulty is not popular in the least. Say you offer more diversity in terms of leagues and conditions and your tiers and whatever. Then you fragment your player population too much. Why do people go golfing? The expression that a bad day of golf is better than a good day at work. There's no expression like that for bowling. All I know is that bowling isn't gonna grow if you piss off and ostracize 90% of your membership. You want people interested, you want them having fun, if they aren't or they stop having fun, they're never going to want anything more. All the egos and elitists basically want to force everyone to have fun bowling the way they do, but all they're really trying to do is set everything up for their own success. All the scratch bowling "professional amateurs" love the way the OC is set up right now, because it couldn't be any more perfectly designed for them to come in and prey on all the regular league bowlers. They WANT the 230 average wall babies to come in and drop a grand a squad in brackets so they can take all that money.

Bottom line, my point in a nutshell is that the second you start mandating or directing how people are supposed to have fun, you take a bad situation and make it worse. They're trying to take all bowling and make it competitive and most people just don't want that.

Quote from: tommygn on April 24, 2017, 01:41:37 PM

Finding the proper balance between fun leagues, birthday parties, scratch and or tournament play, and open play is the key to a successful business. When you focus on only one option, or alienate an option, you aren't really thinking about the big picture, and bowling as a whole. Unfortunately, without a mix, what may seem to be ok right now, will catch you on the hind end, later.

Itzps, I do have a question for you. If all these bowlers are all about just having fun, and they hate scratch bowlers so much, just because we are so called elitist, then why would it even matter if their scores are recognized by a governing body anyway? Your argument is against a tiered system that allows bowlers to just have fun, allows true competition and allows for something in between; so who is it that actually has ego's that needs protecting?

ITZPS · « **Reply #83 on:** April 24, 2017, 06:10:29 PM »

People really don't care about a governing body, they don't know what their sanction fee every year is getting them, and they complain about it every year. I'm not entirely sure you get what I'm saying, you think I'm against things I'm not against and that I don't seem to understand "the key to a successful business." I'm saying exactly what you're saying, if you aren't selling what people want to buy, you will fail as a business. USBC right now is trying to sell what they want to sell and not what people want to buy, it's as simple as that.

Quote from: tommygn on April 24, 2017, 01:41:37 PM

Finding the proper balance between fun leagues, birthday parties, scratch and or tournament play, and open play is the key to a successful business. When you focus on only one option, or alienate an option, you aren't really thinking about the big picture, and bowling as a whole. Unfortunately, without a mix, what may seem to be ok right now, will catch you on the hind end, later.

Itzps, I do have a question for you. If all these bowlers are all about just having fun, and they hate scratch bowlers so much, just because we are so called elitist, then why would it even matter if their scores are recognized by a governing body anyway? Your argument is against a tiered system that allows bowlers to just have fun, allows true competition and allows for something in between; so who is it that actually has ego's that needs protecting?

BowlingforSoup · « **Reply #84 on:** April 24, 2017, 06:33:57 PM »

Well with all the balls of the month coming out.I suggest the ball companies to merge with the usbc.They seem to be sponsering every one and tournaments.Obviously they know how to make money.Everybody is a staffer.With bowling centers closing on a regular basis.guess they will just keep pumping those 200$ balls out for yard art.We have guys who are staffers here who can't bowl there way out of a paperbag.But they keep getting those free balls of month.I am sure someone will say oh but the ball companies are about to go under.They sure are fooling me.

imagonman · « **Reply #85 on:** April 24, 2017, 08:09:51 PM »

Quote from: BowlingforSoup on April 24, 2017, 06:33:57 PM

Well with all the balls of the month coming out.I suggest the ball companies to merge with the usbc.They seem to be sponsering every one and tournaments.Obviously they know how to make money.Everybody is a staffer.With bowling centers closing on a regular basis.guess they will just keep pumping those 200$ balls out for yard art.We have guys who are staffers here who can't bowl there way out of a paperbag.But they keep getting those free balls of month.I am sure someone will say oh but the ball companies are about to go under.They sure are fooling me.

The members numbers have been falling out the bottom for 20-30 yrs. Proprietor's are losing $$ or closing the doors. The only ones making the $$$$ are the ball companies. Is there a real problem?
By putting the onus on the house & lane conditioning for tougher shots you are slitting the throats of the ones already losing their collective asses & assets {THE house} to begin with. That's BS! The governing body -lol {ABC/USBC} have allowed this to take place for far too long. They lost control a long time ago All the while kissing the ball makers asses so they can reap the benefits? More BS!
Of course that IS par for the course in this country in everything. Integrity- where?

If golf got rid of all the tees except the front/womens and made the hole 3 ft wide that would compare to the THS we see today. Everyone & their blind, uncoordinated uncle would be shooting in the 40-50's. After being totally away from this game in all aspects for over 17 yrs. I see how much things have changed & NOT for the better. SHAME! But that's right I'm an elitist/scratch- hdcp. WTFever

avabob · « **Reply #86 on:** April 24, 2017, 11:40:07 PM »

Every one likes to make golf comparisons, but yours is way off. You cannot score on a house shot without executing. What you can be on a housevshot is one dimensional.

tommygn · « **Reply #87 on:** April 25, 2017, 08:13:44 AM »

Quote from: ITZPS on April 24, 2017, 06:10:29 PM

People really don't care about a governing body, they don't know what their sanction fee every year is getting them, and they complain about it every year. I'm not entirely sure you get what I'm saying, you think I'm against things I'm not against and that I don't seem to understand "the key to a successful business." I'm saying exactly what you're saying, if you aren't selling what people want to buy, you will fail as a business. USBC right now is trying to sell what they want to sell and not what people want to buy, it's as simple as that.

Quote from: tommygn on April 24, 2017, 01:41:37 PM
Finding the proper balance between fun leagues, birthday parties, scratch and or tournament play, and open play is the key to a successful business. When you focus on only one option, or alienate an option, you aren't really thinking about the big picture, and bowling as a whole. Unfortunately, without a mix, what may seem to be ok right now, will catch you on the hind end, later.

Itzps, I do have a question for you. If all these bowlers are all about just having fun, and they hate scratch bowlers so much, just because we are so called elitist, then why would it even matter if their scores are recognized by a governing body anyway? Your argument is against a tiered system that allows bowlers to just have fun, allows true competition and allows for something in between; so who is it that actually has ego's that needs protecting?

That's because it's the fault of bowling center management and league admins that don't explain what they get for their money. The very rules that they use and abide by, are products of the ABC/USBC. The bonding, the compiling of league averages and "award-able scores", all from the USBC.

Again, you are being contradictory. If NO ONE cares about the USBC, then why should it matter if they form a Tiered system that allows rec bowlers to "just have fun" while forming a middle ground that is in between sport and all out scoring;, becasue that is what league should be called these days, scoring. If people "love BOWLING", and "have fun BOWLING", the scoring pace is somewhat irrelevant.

You can't have it both ways, and say that no one cares about the USBC, and then say that the USBC shouldn't try and give some integrity to the game of bowling for those that DO care about the game and the sport.

Look, I'm about done here, as I am entirely TOO busy to be making videos and snap chatting and doing whatever else you young guys like to do to be "social". I am busy being the president of our only local sport league, busy coaching our our youth league every single Saturday morning that I'm not at a PBA regional (member since 2001) for the past 20 YEARS; busy skipping lunch breaks so that I can go practice for said regionals because there is no other time for me to get that in; busy organizing bowlers to bowl a summer league; busy organizing our states bowling team; all while working in and running a pro shop for the past 14 years. You see, I'm in the "trenches" daily, talking to the bowlers one on one, seeing their faces, reading their body language, so yeah, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the bowling community as a whole, also. All this while still finding time to bowl both scratch and handicap leagues, and supporting local tournaments, as well as having a full time job. And a side note, my bowling resume isn't too shabby either. There are people that have more to offer than I do based on experience, and people more than them. Just keep that in mind when you try dealing with "absolutes" like no one, and everyone, because the instant you do that, you are wrong, because not everyone feels the same things about everything.

When I see PBA regionals start using "USBC standard compliant patterns" because they are afraid to frighten new bowlers off, it's getting ridiculous. These high scoring league patterns that allow bowlers to just grab a hand full is starting to affect the way the PBA has to run it's program, to be able to survive. You are being naive if you think what goes on at a league level, doesn't affect tournament bowling, or affect the PBA tour, because it absolutely DOES.

But keep handing everyone everything, and wonder why there is entitlement issues.

tommygn · « **Reply #88 on:** April 25, 2017, 08:14:14 AM »

Quote from: avabob on April 24, 2017, 11:40:07 PM

Every one likes to make golf comparisons, but yours is way off. You cannot score on a house shot without executing. What you can be on a housevshot is one dimensional.

Is this the execution you are talking about?? 12 strikes in less than 90 secs. Great repeatable shots at it's best!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnphc6qeNs

Steven · « **Reply #89 on:** April 25, 2017, 09:13:18 AM »

Quote from: tommygn on April 25, 2017, 08:14:14 AM

Quote from: avabob on April 24, 2017, 11:40:07 PM
Every one likes to make golf comparisons, but yours is way off. You cannot score on a house shot without executing. What you can be on a housevshot is one dimensional.

Is this the execution you are talking about?? 12 strikes in less than 90 secs. Great repeatable shots at it's best!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnphc6qeNs

LOL.. I saw that on FB a few days ago. It's not a testament to the integrity of a THS, but an impressive accomplishment none the less.

tommy, I just want to say I agree with your analysis 100%. It's very well articulated. I respect the other views that have been put forth, but a strategy of simply not wanting to piss off the masses at any cost isn't the answer.

Olderdude · « **Reply #90 on:** April 25, 2017, 09:20:54 AM »

I love the golf analogy the best. I am a golf hack, I golf for fun I usually shoot in the 110-120 range. I have yet to find a golf course put out an easy shot for me so I can shoot par, but I golf anyway because I hang with friends, drink beer, and have a good time. So someone tell me how that compares to bowling again?

We can disagree, talk about our accomplishments and throw out arbitrary numbers all day long and this whole thread is getting confusing on who said what. But the USBC is coming and there will be changes in the future and I don't believe storm/EBI/Motiv or whatever other companies are making balls are going to allow the/want the USBC to take away their money with ball restrictions. So what does that leave? Stricter lane conditions, they don't have to be necessarily harder, they will just have to follow the standards.

Author Topic: USBC E-mail surveys (Read 12452 times)

the_scarlet_pumpernickel

USBC E-mail surveys

Olderdude

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

tommygn

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Olderdude

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

tommygn

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

itsallaboutme

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

BowlingforSoup

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

imagonman

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

avabob

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

tommygn

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

tommygn

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Steven

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Olderdude

Re: USBC E-mail surveys